Shotguns Outdated?

The shotgun has many things going for it:

1/ It can do a wide variety of tasks. Shoot birds. Shoot clays. Shoot bad guys. Blow doors off hinges. Deliver tear gas.

2/ It has more firepoer in a compact package than anything, save a decent SMG.

3/ A shotgun has a higher hit probability- although no "awesome cone of death" as hollywood would have us believe.

4/ For what you get they are quite cheap compared to other weapon systems.

5/ They are quite easy to use, and with practice I belive can be mastered more quickly than , say, an automatic weapon.

6/ As you have at least 3 welds to the weapon, they hold and point easily.

7/ They are more fun than you can possibly imagine.
 
i know not another person brining this topic to the top, but damn deffinetly not outdated, look at trip ot buck shot, thats alot of lead in the air, in close cordors thats deadly, shotguns also dont travel as far and get bystandards, like in urban combat that were dealing with more and more,.... tons of applications, like riot control....
 
I find Box-O-Truth to be fine on some occasions...

but with many of their tests they make critical mistakes that could change the results. In their bullet resistant glass test, they shoot the same piece of glass with everything under the sun. The last two round they fire at it (shotgun slug and something form a Sharps rifle) penetrate. They then claim that the glass can't stop every round. For that statement to be true, they would have to shoot at a piece of glass only one time and then switch to a different piece. I know that would be very costly, but if you can't do the test right then don't claim that your results are the absolute truth. Anyways, anyone who thinks the shotgun is outdated is not familiar with guns. A shotgun is capable of far greater devastation at close range than ANY handgun and most rifles and is very versatile as far as load selection. If someone was in my house and posed a threat to me or my family, I would feel confident knowing I had a 12 guage 870 with 5 rounds of 00 buckshot. Who wouldn't?
 
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Cowled_Wolf wrote: "I'd say shotgun because of A: Kachunk!... And B: The psychological re-assurance it offers -- that big hole in the barrel means business."

Absolutely. One of my wife's ex-boyfriends is a Coast Guard reservist, and he's taken part in more than a few boardings of floating meth labs. Nasty business, since the crews tend to rather violently resist arrest, and after the first couple such operations, he ditched his Coast Guard-issue rifle and carried a privately bought 12-gauge pump-action. Between the racking of the slide and the size of the muzzle, that had way more intimidation value, and he found that any crewmember facing it became markedly less enthusiastic about trying to put up a fight at all.

Admittedly, that says little about the relative value of the weapon in an actual firefight, but if you can get the other guy to surrender rather than try to shoot it out, your health is significantly less at risk in the first place.
 
Quote: How many of you out there believe that the shotgun is outdated for protection, End quote

Not me.

I can't think of anything I'd rather have in my hands if a "Bad Guy" was busting into my house. It doesn't much matter what it is loaded with either, at the expected ranges of 25 feet or less.

j
 
Quote: Sure, by all means in rational thought a shotgun's not signifigantly more likely to hit than any other firearm in a hallway... end quote.

I don't agree. Hitting anything is definitely easier with an arm with a longer barrel. My point being; you are more likely to achieve a good hit with a shotgun than with a pistol or snubby revolver. (If you had said "than a carbine", I would agree. )

The advantage I see in a shotgun at close quarters is not the "spread" of the load but the mass of it. 1 1/4 oz. of lead ain't going to be dismissed lightly.
That is about the same weight as five 44 bullets.
 
No, not at all.

I agree with a lot that has already been said.
The shotgun is a niche weapon, for the most part. For civilian defensive applications, I would put the range of buckshot at about 15 yards: but, this is something that has to be tested using your actual shotgun and your actual defensive buckshot load to determine your max range. Contrary to most of what I read on the internet, the max range is the max range that you are going to be able to keep all your pellets on the target. Just like any other weapon, it is a real bad idea to have stray pellets (bullets) flying around the neighborhood. Buckshot is certainly deadly beyond 15 yards and that is exactly why we need to keep all pellets accounted for. Luckily, in most civilian situations, 15 yards is plenty. Past the distance where you can keep all your pellets on target you need to select slug. The slug is (IMO) too much for urban defensive purposes in most cases. You will have massive over penetration. Contrary to what most people think, it is very easy to miss with a shotgun. I have had this proven to me time and time again. When I took Gunsite 260, I managed to miss more than one target inside a simulator with a shotgun. A couple weeks ago I was shooting a three gun match (submachinegun, handgun, shotgun) and managed to miss one target with a shotgun. It is FAR easier than most people think. I am not interested in making noises (racking a shotgun) or showing people the muzzle. I am interested in it's effectiveness and the shotgun is very effective. I have seen and touched a number of people who have been shot with shotguns and the results are dramatic. In my 20+ year career as a paramedic in a large city I have only seen one person survive being shot with a shotgun and that was birdshot at over 50 yards.
The carbine is a much more versitile tool. I have also seen a few people shot with carbines and I honestly couldn't tell you which would be worse. Both are extremly effective. For the criteria listed in this discusssion, I would rather have the shotgun. I think it has a little bit more going for it in the narrow confines of this discussion. If we were talking anything other than personal defensive use by a civilan, I would probably have to go with the carbine.
Very few people have addressed the submachinegun issue. I have a little bit of experience using one. First of all, I own one. I also shoot in our local machine gun matches when I can. I have fired quite a few different subguns over the years. I have also taken a formal four day subgun class as well as a formal four day M16 class. I have been in the military and fired the M16 as well as the M3 submachine gun while in the reserves. IMO, the submachinegun has no legitimate purpose other than a toy. I can't think of a case where I would rather have a subgun rather than a shotgun or carbine. In these local subgun matches, I am quite sure I could hit the targets faster (and with far less rounds) using a semi-auto AR15.
 
When all is said and done

Lots of good things said here, and most true as well, but I do take exception to a couple of points.

It was said that max range was the max where you could keep all your pellets on the target. I disagree. Max range is the max where you can get enough pellets on target to get the job done. I realize that civilians have to be concerned with where the stray pellets may go, but I submit, that first, that is not as much of a concern as getting the job done, and second, What kind of civilian "defense" situation would cause you to shoot someone at that great a distance?

Penetration through walls, 12 ga was compared to 5.56mm (55gr). Consider this, everyone talks about 00 Buck (or even slugs) when they talk defense with a shotgun. These will definately go through multiple walls. What wasn't mentioned is what savy shotgunners know, the inside the house, across the room, #8 birdshot is effective, and seldom penetrates multiple walls. As far as the argument that the tiny pellets do not have much energy, remember that at 30 feet or less, they are still in a pretty compact mass. That is the secret to the shotgun's effect. Mass, and plenty of it.

Remember, not matter what anybody tells you, size DOES matter!:D
 
You miss the point.
I brought up the max range of buckshot because it was mentioned earlier in a previous post and the range given in my experience was far greater than would be safe for a civilian defensive situation. It doens't matter if you can envision a senario at that distance, it is still the max range.
So, in your first paragraph you seem to think that it is OK to fire at any distance as long as you stop the target, but in the second paragraph you are worried about overpenetration. Missing the target and overpenetration have a lot in common: stay bullets hitting things we dont' intend.
 
I tend to agree with most here that a shotgun is more effective than a carbine at close ranges. If the carbine has any advantage at all, it would be at the reload, assuming a detachable magazine or stripper clips.

A shotgun at close range-say 15 yards and less is going to deliver more energy per shot and starts a hole through the bad guy that the carbine user can only wish for.
 
#8 birdshot is effective, and seldom penetrates multiple walls. As far as the argument that the tiny pellets do not have much energy, remember that at 30 feet or less, they are still in a pretty compact mass. That is the secret to the shotgun's effect. Mass, and plenty of it.
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birdshot is for the birds. Use buck or slugs. After they clean up the mess that was once the home intruder badguy, you can then explain how shotguns are obsolete.
 
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Birdshot

Birdshot is effective, but only at very close range. Inside the house/apartment, ranges less than 10 yards (I have small rooms). Considering that at close range, the shot column (and wad) will blow a hole through 3/4 inch plywood, I suspect it will be effective against an intruder. The fact that birdshot loses its energy very rapidly, and consequently it's ability to penetrate is a plus for those people who have other people living on the other side of the wall. Again, understand that birdshot is for very close range. As the first round, to "repel boarders". And if overpenetration is a concern to you. Follow up rounds, buck or ball at your discretion.

All of us "know" that buck shot or slugs are what you "need" for defense. But don't automatically dismiss fine shot as useless at very close range. The fact is, anything you put in a 12ga is going to be effective at point blank range. Slugs, buck, birdshot, rock salt, even split peas. People have even been killed by blanks at contact distance.

Check it out for yourselves. Shoot some stuff at 15-20 feet and see. Is birdshot as effective as 00 buck or slugs, no. Will it mess up an intruder, you bet.

Of course, we all know that birdshot is totally ineffective, just ask Dick Cheney's hunting partners.:D
 
Only the "very naive" would load their self defense shotgun up with #8 birdshot just to minimize the repair work on their walls. If you are afraid of penetration of walls, you could still go much larger. It just isn't smart to advocate birdshot, especially small birdshot for self defense. You need, in my opinion, at least #1 buck for one shot stopping power for an intruder. That is what you should want....one shot stopping power. Other factors to consider are whether they have on a thick coat in winter, and whether they are "hopped up on something". All you birdshot guys can protect your family and yourself with anything you want. You are the man of the house......use a slingshot if you want.
 
Most of you are going to die in an armed conforntation. Get what ever you want and practice, practice, practice. Most of the HD shooters I have seen are pathetic in their ability.
 
I don't know that I would go so far as to say that most of us "are going to die in an armed confrontation".......not any more likely to die than the adversary........or you. How many of us have you seen shoot, and are you the shotgun expert of all time? I agree with you about practice, practice practice, but having a gun that you are willing to use against an armed intruder, I feel, puts you in better shape than not having one at all.......so what's your gripe?
 
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