Shooting my '58's

shooting my 58's

Smokin,I'll give you an example of sorts.I had a 16ft.x 2inch piece of rough cut poplar wood for stairway in an old barn.Stringer for stairs. I cut the notches in it for the risers and treads of the stairs. The board was straight but when I cut the side for the risers and treads the board "bowed" in that direction. The board wasn't stress relieved since it was not dried. Well just like that wood a pistol barrel of non-stress relieved metal will bow in the direction of the dovetail cut.Walaa, a slight bulge inside the barrel. Know what I mean?:)
 
Well, I have never had a problem dovetailing a bbl. These high spots weren't going to be removed by any kind of lapping. If you can see them with the naked eye and a bore light they are too big. The latch and sight are force fit, and I believe that there was way too much pressure used to intall them on this particular bbl, I could be wrong, we'll see when I get the latch and sight put back on. I will not heat the bbl to solder on a sight, I'll dove tail it the same way I installed sights on BP rifles and pistolsI made 30-40 years ago. Also i make shallow dovetails not those 1/8 inch deep.

Wayner,
I do understand and follow what you are saying and will check things out afterwards. If I have ruined it then I 'll address that at that time. May have to buy a new bbl for it. Ought to be real fun getting the bbl out of the frame.
 
The dovetailing I did on both of my Remingtons and many other guns has never hurt a thing and the accuracy is unreal on all of them. I never solderd in any dove tail sight I have ever cut it. Once they are sighted in and trimed i use a small nail set and pin four spots and they have never moved and you can hardly see where they are pined. I could see a problem if you used a torch to solder one and got it to hot :eek:

Dragoon, If you have to you can always get a new barrel for that Remington and it would still be cheaper than a new one.
 
These bbl's MAY be heat treated to some extent, but if you get your bbl's as hot as I did, just shooting, especially of a bench, (with the conversion cyl.)then I think it's a moot point. Mine got so hot that I couldn't hold the bbl, least it did last time out. Shot 25 shots as fast as I could reload it. It got pretty hot. After the 25 shots I let it cool and shot the new one.

I had thought of cutting a groove in the bbl for the sight and silver soldering it in, but I quickly decided that I didn't want to go that route.

BTW if this bbl was heat treated....they did pretty poor job, it cuts almost like butter. I believe in the stress relieving aspect, but don't think it will hurt this bbl. Modern made modern guns...another story entirely.

If it works reasonably well, then it works, if not it don't . Then I learn something new.
 
shooting my 58's

Well howdy. I wasn'y referring to soldering a dovetail when I mentioned the heat I think I referred to "soldering a sight". Anywhoooo, I can't see that the bumps in the barrel are real big and from excessive force tightening a dovetailed peice. I just thought it may be interesting for you guys to know that with dovetails and soldering sights on (like for 1860 Army Colt blades) the metal stress thing comes into play. The deformation into the bore from a dovetail is slight but "there all the same". I've dovetailed and had no problem with it also... or have I? I get a flyer every now and then. Maybe it's from a slight tight spot from that dovetail cut? I don't like to lap barrels because to do it properly takes too much doin and a barrel can get messed up with rounded corners on the lands and such so I just shoot and forget it. It's not like I'm talking about a sniper rifle or 22-250 ect.ect. Old Dragoon, what make "58" do you have? Uberti? Pietta? Pietta barrels come out relatively easy. I've had a gunsmith friend tell me that the Uberti's he's tried to remove barrels from have not given up the barrel. He said he thinks Uberti uses some form of industrial lock-tite or something. You aren't gonna need a new barrel anywhooo Old Dragoon.It's alright. Well, speaking about shooting a gun to the point the barrel was real hot isn't like heating "one small spot" as in soldering a sight. It's the heat in "one small spot that awakens the stress relieved thing" not uniformly heating a barrel from one end to the other and silver solder can need some heat unless you use the hi strength low temp stuff. Remington Kid, I'm happy that all the dovetails you've cut came out ok and that all of the guns you've dovetailed have accuracy that is unreal. Anywhooo, I just thought I'd try to add a little to the conversation and try to be "helpful". See ya Pards.
 
shooting my 58's

Well Old Dragoon, I noticed up there where I hadn't read before that your gun barrel didn't have a dovetail cut for the loading lever latch initially but the original press fit type. Well, ifin you don't want to shape the dovetail you are gonna use now you can get one from someplace that sells the parts for building muzzleloader rifles. I've built a few rifles(used to have a muzzleloading rifle shop)and know of sources for those things. You probably do too I imagine. Doesn't everyone know about Dixie Gun Works?? ha ha ha Anywhooo a dovetail piece from a steel sight for a rifle can work good. I was reading where you are going to get some files to work the dovetail. Brownells sells 60degree dovetail files that are real handy because they have a smooth side to one side of the triangle and that makes cutting in a nice dovetail easier. Well, you mentioned to someone that you are gonna make a sight? Do you know that the "Shooters" Model Pietta Remington has a dovetailed front sight from the factory and that they(the sight) can be bought cheap? VTI GunParts. The loading lever latch on the Shooters Model Pietta Remington is a dovetailed part from the factory also and can probably be had from VTI GunParts too. Save ya some work there Bud. I was wondering what process you are going to use to shorten the loading lever on your gun since the latch is going to be moved to the rear more? Whatever method you use it may be wise to hold off on the dovetailing for the latch until you shorten the loading lever. Doing the loading lever shortening first can save some headache since it may be easier to locate the exact spot for the dovetailed latch once you have the lever sized to length. Don't want to get the cart before the horse. ha ha ha ha :D Ifin you aren't interested in shooting percussion with that gun you could get the "spring quick clip" from River Junction that is a "no-gunsmithing" way to hold the arbor(cylinder pin) in the gun and the loading lever can just be thrown into the spare parts bin. Save the other gun for the percussion stuff and just use the spare percussion cylinder for it. Save ya a lot of work. Save your energy to make a cool sight like The Remington Kid did with a coin or something. Anywhooooo, I was wondering if you have a good drill press without a lot of side slap to the spindle? If you do have one and a machinists vise or a good drill press vise you can use an end mill to cut the initial straight cut(get a perfectly straight ,flush ,parallel to the cut) and then use a 60 degree dovetail cutter(end mill) to hit the corners and make a dovetail that will be near perfect and no need to peen any metal to tighten the piece in the dovetail if ya take yer time and eye-ball her good. Measure with your calipers too. ha ha Ifin you didn't want to spend money on the 60 degree dovetail cutter you could cut the first cut(parallel sided) with a bottoming end mill and then use the 60 degree dovetail file from Brownells to cut the angles into the cut to make it a "dovetail". You'd need that machinists vise though with the little handles to turn the part into the endmill. Does this help any Bud? See ya on top the hill. Watch yer top knot and keep yer eyes on the skyline. You'll do well Old Dragoon. You'll do well.
 
Wayner,

I've built several ML rifles and Pistols, albeit, 30 or more years ago. I have always hand cut the dovetails. I grind one of the flats on a 3 edge file smooth or I tape the flat so it doesn't cut.
I have not cut the rammer yet as I wanted to locate the latch first. The latch is actually moving back about 1/4-3/8 inch. I actually cut 2 inches off the bbl. right behind the rammer latch. I intend to drill the existing latch,catch,spring hole deeper. It is fairly simple to measure after the latch is in place. I have not cut the rammer yet. I measured the gap between the rammer and the latch before I cut the bbl. I also measured the depth of the keeper/spring hole. I will replicate that depth when I shorten the rammer end. This is the most simple way to shorten a rammer. That old "whack it off and reweld it isn't for me.
I also have to notch the rammer on both guns for the ejector keeper. I will bevel the ends of the ejector housings on both guns also. I thought they came beveled like the original factory (conversions) housings, but alas, no.

I will leave both rammers on my guns as I want the capability of shooting both BP or Cartridge.

I recrowned the muzzle of both guns yesterday and I cleaned up the forcing cone on both. You can shove a piece of cotton down both bbls and not get a snag now. This is after I had prieviously shot lapped both guns and hand lapped both.

I have seen the cylinder pin keeper from RJ. ( I have spent so much money there lately.One Konverter to go yet. LOL) When I make my belly gun I intend to use one. Also I'll reshape the grip frame on that gun. But that's down the road a piece. A couple other projects in front of it. Mainly to get this gun shooting as good as the other one, or at least close.
 
Good info, Wayner, except for that topknot thing. The only way I can watch mine is with two mirrors. It would have to be called a back-knot on me!


Steve
 
shooting my 58's

Steve 499, yea, I'm in the same predicament but also with people calling me a knot-head. Old Dragoon, if I wasn't such an old dog you could teach me some new tricks. Do you use a hacksaw to start the dovetail and then chisel it away and then file the bottom flat and then file the angles or chisel the angles like they did rifles back in the old days?
 
Wayner,
That is the way I was taught to do it. I had a couple great teachers, one a ML gunsmith in Muncie, Indiana, and another a name builder from Mich. I lay out the dovetailon the flat of the bbl complete with centerline. I make a series of cuts, take out the metal with a cold chisel, clean it up square and flat to depth then use the 3 sided file with one side ground smooth. smooth side down and cut the dovetails. The dovetail itself is slightly trapazoidal, just enough for a force fitup when completed with the insert piece.
 
Wayne, hey bud...speakin about old 1858 Rem barrels for Piettas, have you got any that were removed and replaced? All I'm lookin for is one with good threads and about the first 3-4" in fair condition, actually only the threads matter. Just an old barrel no lever needed. Was meanin to ask you and your post reminded me. And where did you say those clips were available from?

Make make somethin like this below...probly otta just find and old beat parts gun. Wouldn't a ported R&D conversion or a Kirst work well like this?
1872RemCart.jpg


Or I may just do it in C&B first for cost effectivity...and I can convert later. Maybe I could mae one like this Wayne:cool: HeHe!
nedpepper2.jpg
 
Old Dragoon, Looks like maybe we did go to the same school,Lol. That's just the way I have done all of my hand cut dovetails on 4 rifles and 3 revolvers. My first one took me forever because I was affraid of every move I made but it came out so well that no one would believe that it was done with a hack saw, cold chisle and files.:)
 
SG,
Both of these look great. Look at the one on Kirst Konverter Pages at River Junction Trade Co. website. They have the Cylinder pin Latch and spring.for the cut downs. The snubbie on the Kirst page is what I want to do to make a belly gun. Reshape the butt, etc.
When you heading East? I'll be at the Cowboy match at DM on Sunday.

RK,
I still have to clean up my latch dovetail and make a base for the latch. My idea didn't work as well as I like, Not the first time?? I also have to cut the dound part of the rammer off and shorten it and weld it back as the ejector assy dictates a notch in the rammer just where the keeper spring and body would ride. SHOOT! Oh Well the joys of shortening a bbl.

I set up my 44 Rem/colt crimper last night and it works really well. I did several 44 Rem/Colts, one S&W 44 Rem. Mag casr and bullet and one 44 Rem Mag case and bullet. Bermnie (Old West Moulds) made me two different punches one does 44 Colt cases and 44 S&W Spcl. cases and one does the 44 Rem. Mag cases.
Slick, slick slick.

Gotta load up some 44 Rem/Colts for Sundays match. Busy, Busy, Busy.
 
Leavin on the 20th...maybe I'll stop by up there and try out the cylinder I just repaired on my Paterson, and bring another one if it's ok to shoot on the Pistol range while the CAS is going on. I wanna check out the CAS guys anyway. I'll give ya a call when I find out if I can make it. I was gonna go up today and check out the action work I did on my Pietta Rem..real smooth now. Also pop off a few with my Uberti 1851 Navy. You workin?
 
Yep All Day. Darn it, but it pays the bills and lets me play ith horses and buy my toys.

I'll be the short fat guy in the montana pinch and only one gun....LOL I don't intend to shoot much but I know they move from the pistol range to the range across the road so the pistol range is open . but their targets are left up. Those guys shoot over there afterwards. I only been there once.

If you come and can use the pistol range I'll come and shoot over there with you.I'll bring the 44 Rem.s. and some of the 44 Colts.
 
Bore Discrepancies....

I just slugged both my '58's with the .451 44 Rem Bullets. Found something a bit discouragingand at the same time telling. The first one I did is my recent '58 a 2002 model. it is .451 grooves X .440 Lands. This one shoot point of aim. The first of my '58's a 2005 model is .446 Grooves X .440 lands this one doesn't group, or didn't because of existing conditions, indentation in the lands and grooves at the latch and front sight and possibly the shallow rifling too. Need to get this one back together and shoot it to see if whacking the bbl. off helped. I know it sure did't hurt. No tight spots in bore (that I could fee or see)now.
 
Old Dragoon, With the figures you posted both of the guns should shoot great.
I'm willing to bet that the one you shortened the barrel on will group just fine now. I'm sure you did but I'll ask anyway...Did you chamfer the muzzle on that barrel after you cut it off? I thought I read somewhere that you had but just checking:) Let us know how they shoot.
My lans and grooves on my two Remingtons are real close to each other.The lans on the sluged .454 ball are .400, grooves are .450 and the chambers are .443. No problem grouping with these Rems. That's what my calipers say but they are not the best in the world.
 
RK,
Hope you are right.
Yep I recrowned both muzzles and lapped and polished the forcing cones. I can shove a cotton ball thru both and no snags.

I think the two tight spots had a lot to do with the acuracy they're gone. My first one "Shorty" (now). May end up being a belly gun in time, but I will finish it off and shoot it to see how it shoots. It has become more of a job than I thought when I started, but that's what these cold winter nights are for.

My only concern is "skipping" over the rifling, but it may not happen with 30-40 grns BP.
 
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