Shock and Awe ammo sequence to combat (real) pirates
- Thread starter manonash
- Start date
Great discussion guys, very interesting thoughts all around.
I was thinking, why expect pirates to come guns blazing in broad daylight?
I dont know about long distance sailing: do you ever spend nights in the open sea? If a pirate group is following you at a distance they would probably wait till night to swoop in and take over. especially if they have night vision, is that a stretch?
I was thinking, why expect pirates to come guns blazing in broad daylight?
I dont know about long distance sailing: do you ever spend nights in the open sea? If a pirate group is following you at a distance they would probably wait till night to swoop in and take over. especially if they have night vision, is that a stretch?
Nowhere Man
New member
MikeGoob wrote;
Nothing is a stretch when it comes to pirates. Hopefully your radar would warn you of the approaching vessel. And, I would expect you would see them before sunset.
Dave
Nothing is a stretch when it comes to pirates. Hopefully your radar would warn you of the approaching vessel. And, I would expect you would see them before sunset.
Dave
A barret .50 semi-auto would be a great gun to deploy. However it will be one of the harder ones to bring to bear as it is heavier and needs the bipod support to really utilize it best. The negative to this, is you are 100% at the mercy of the sea conditions. With a shoulder mount off hand, you can learn, with a little practice, to compensate for the rocking of the vessel.
We have packed clay pigeons in menhaden oil in a 5 gal bucket... Then we would shoot them from hand slinger. The result was fantastic as the sprinkling on the surface along with the oil would generatea heck of a topwater feed and resulting bite. But it did take practice to hit them in 2-3 foot seas on a little 25 foot center console.
A daylight attack is highly likely as the pirates rarely can keep the radar operational if they even know how to operate it. Night time attacks are more likely the closer to shore you are as the "beachcombers" can see your lighting.
As for following you, if they know or suspect you have a radar unit, they also can suspect you have either a sat phone or "addressable" gps alert system like "SPOT". so they have to fear you have "made them" and hailed the authority.
I would want no less than a 64 mile unit.
As for spending nights at sea... Many folks will be 15-45 days, easily, without making any port. You will be underway the whole time... This is a benny of the blow boat, snail boat.
Brent
I doubt a night time attack. From what I have read and seen in the news articles, the pirates operate off a mother ship. This probably has radar and comms, etc. But the attacks appear to be made from large open launches/fishing boats. These have nothing except a motor: no lights of any size, no deck, no comms, no radar, nada. So I doubt they would operate at night unless the mother ship was within sight.
Most of the pirates are dirt poor Somalis that jump on the boat to go get a quick grab and make a little money. Most of the ransom or booty probably goes to the warlord who owns the mother ship. I highly doubt they have night vision, optics, or any sophisticated weapons. More likely just rusty AKs.
That would be great for you to have night vision just in case.
Most of the pirates are dirt poor Somalis that jump on the boat to go get a quick grab and make a little money. Most of the ransom or booty probably goes to the warlord who owns the mother ship. I highly doubt they have night vision, optics, or any sophisticated weapons. More likely just rusty AKs.
That would be great for you to have night vision just in case.
In that region the somalis do rule the underworld but I will address other regions in just a bit...
In the somali area, you are correct. The warlords get the cash and own the vessels... But remember these are millionaires who can afford to equip there vessels and crew with state of the art gear.
As for other regions, in the caribe, the pirates are generally dope smugglers in need of changing out vessels often. Just because you bought off the Port Master in Jamaica don't insure he won't call ahead to put other PM's aware of you coming in. So if you are in a 50 foot sport fish, you can jack a 40 foot sail boat once at sea so your approach is not noticed.
Not to mention the CG is conducting investigations hundreds and thousands of miles away from the USA.
it is proven that the somalis also routinely use RPG's... the warlord can buy any gear he wishes.
In the caribe, I think the majority of hi-jackings are the "good samaritan sucker" rouse. The pirate sees you on high tech radar and cuts the motors. A smoke canister set off in a metal bucket in the cockpit would force all but the most hardened of sailors to approach to render assistance (required nearly every where if not just the unwritten rule of sailors world wide). Once along side the pirate vessel, they are invited to board your vessel where you immediately have a semi-auto pistol shoved in your throat.
Brent
Stand off power
From the beginning, I was against shot gun in this scenario. If it doesn't fall into 30 to 75 yards, a shotgun is wrong...a fast moving boat will cover that "moment" quickly.
I agree with a large caliber semi auto with a good scope to reach out there and get clean aimed shots before you come into their range. What I'm aiming at is a "sporting" rifle most used for hunting rhinos or elephants. Can you get one in semi auto? Would authorities notice larger magazines or stripper clip guides over the action? If it's got fancy furniture and a nice case, it might just pass. You might have two...or even one for each member of the party + one. But keep it sporting.
If you had more then couple signal guns and everyone had one, I suppose you might defend a boarding party.
Now you just need to make it all "yours" by practicing with it and experimenting with ammo.
From the beginning, I was against shot gun in this scenario. If it doesn't fall into 30 to 75 yards, a shotgun is wrong...a fast moving boat will cover that "moment" quickly.
I agree with a large caliber semi auto with a good scope to reach out there and get clean aimed shots before you come into their range. What I'm aiming at is a "sporting" rifle most used for hunting rhinos or elephants. Can you get one in semi auto? Would authorities notice larger magazines or stripper clip guides over the action? If it's got fancy furniture and a nice case, it might just pass. You might have two...or even one for each member of the party + one. But keep it sporting.
If you had more then couple signal guns and everyone had one, I suppose you might defend a boarding party.
Now you just need to make it all "yours" by practicing with it and experimenting with ammo.
I would say first of all that a warning shot gives away your element of surprise. Secondly, the Germans with the 88 cannons decimated the American tank crews with the 75s in large part because they had a larger effective stand off distance. You could be shread to pieces at longer ranges than your weapons are effective. I think an M14 would be a great choice, but legal restrictions may make a shotgun with slugs a better option. A BAR in 3006 or 7mm remingto mag might extend your range considerably and still be "sporting type" weapons. Whatever you decide, traveling alone around the world is dangerous no matter what you do. Tread softly and carry a big stick.
nitetrane98
Moderator
Speaking strictly of the shock and awe aspect and not going the FA route, I immediately thought of the hundreds of Youtubes showing some fellow bump firing any number of semi auto rifles. Some are actually quite impressive in the firepower sense. Not particularly accurate from what I've seen but would definitely get somebody's attention walking the bursts up to a boat size target. It might be a good enough bluff to make a pirate think he was up against FA weaponry.
Even before the bump firing you might look into the old shoestring FA conversion or possibly a Hellfire ammo waster just for the effect.
But as mentioned, sooner or later you've got to get to the nut cutting. If they don't buy the charade you can expect FA return fire at least. You'll have to make your stand and deliver. Time to get small and fire for effect with something with which you can hit what you aim at. I wouldn't automatically endow a pirate with legendary marksmanship skills from a moving boat either. I'd expect a whole lot of spraying going on.
If I were a younger man, it sounds like a hoot. Hell, it still kinda does.
Good Luck to you.
Even before the bump firing you might look into the old shoestring FA conversion or possibly a Hellfire ammo waster just for the effect.
But as mentioned, sooner or later you've got to get to the nut cutting. If they don't buy the charade you can expect FA return fire at least. You'll have to make your stand and deliver. Time to get small and fire for effect with something with which you can hit what you aim at. I wouldn't automatically endow a pirate with legendary marksmanship skills from a moving boat either. I'd expect a whole lot of spraying going on.
If I were a younger man, it sounds like a hoot. Hell, it still kinda does.
Good Luck to you.
If the risk is this great I don't think I'd be able to take my family on this type of outing.... I agree it'd be one of the coolest life experiences ever but just not worth the risking of myself or family. I'd simply steer clear of those suspect areas. My first thought was the Barret .50 semi auto too. I'd even have places in the deck to mount it, lol...
You guys are cracking me up with this Barrett .50 talk I'd need a much bigger boat! (seriously, this would be very difficult to maneuver, even on deck - let alone down below.)
I just spoke with a maritime lawyer, who simplified the laws pretty well for me. In short, in international waters, you are responsible to the laws of your flag country (in terms of caliber, capacity, FA, rules of engagement, etc...) I have also been speaking with a couple of builders about adding layers of kevlar and steel inside the hull, beneath portholes on each side (that we'd be firing from, if possible.) Not cheap, but...
The whole problem here is the Gulf of Aden. I don't mind staying 500 miles from Malaysia, even if it means adding 3-5 extra days to a passage. But, I'd much rather head up the Red Sea to get to the Med than go all the way around Africa (pretty much staying is hostile territory the whole time).
Just traded my shotty in for a Winchester 1300 Marine pump (less maintenance worry). Looking for a decent marine-friendly SA in .308 or .338. Have plenty of handguns if it comes to that.
Other than being prepared from an arms/tactics point of view, we will plan out trip very carefully, avoiding as many hostile areas as possible, while traveling in caravans and/or under escort when possible.
Thanks for your help! If you have any more ideas. Let me know.
I just spoke with a maritime lawyer, who simplified the laws pretty well for me. In short, in international waters, you are responsible to the laws of your flag country (in terms of caliber, capacity, FA, rules of engagement, etc...) I have also been speaking with a couple of builders about adding layers of kevlar and steel inside the hull, beneath portholes on each side (that we'd be firing from, if possible.) Not cheap, but...
The whole problem here is the Gulf of Aden. I don't mind staying 500 miles from Malaysia, even if it means adding 3-5 extra days to a passage. But, I'd much rather head up the Red Sea to get to the Med than go all the way around Africa (pretty much staying is hostile territory the whole time).
Just traded my shotty in for a Winchester 1300 Marine pump (less maintenance worry). Looking for a decent marine-friendly SA in .308 or .338. Have plenty of handguns if it comes to that.
Other than being prepared from an arms/tactics point of view, we will plan out trip very carefully, avoiding as many hostile areas as possible, while traveling in caravans and/or under escort when possible.
Thanks for your help! If you have any more ideas. Let me know.
earlthegoat2
New member
I like the shotgun idea but you need more than one. If a 50 rifle is out the question then get 1 or better yet 5 M1A rifles.
Barrett
Shock and awe only works if you have more of it than the other side. As per your plans at the moment, you don't.
About the Barrett - which I think is the best idea by far (and the priciest) - how big do you think a Barrett semi-auto is anyway? A Remington 870 is spec'd at 46-48" long. A Barrett with the 20" barrel is the same length as the 870. The longer barrel for the Barrett adds nine inches. How is that too big? I've spent a lot of time on sailing vessels (my son lived on one for years) and don't see the length as a big issue. The $9K price tag is something else, however.
Pete
Shock and awe only works if you have more of it than the other side. As per your plans at the moment, you don't.
About the Barrett - which I think is the best idea by far (and the priciest) - how big do you think a Barrett semi-auto is anyway? A Remington 870 is spec'd at 46-48" long. A Barrett with the 20" barrel is the same length as the 870. The longer barrel for the Barrett adds nine inches. How is that too big? I've spent a lot of time on sailing vessels (my son lived on one for years) and don't see the length as a big issue. The $9K price tag is something else, however.
Pete
I doubt any potential attackers are going to give you enough warning or indication of their intent ahead of time to make the standoff ability inherent in a powerful CF rifle any advantage to you as they close for their assault. Once contact is made and the attackers find themselves unable to press the attack home without resistance from you, however, they may fall back and attempt retaliation from a distance.
So you have two choices, essentially, as far as I can tell. Clear their decks promptly and completely upon first contact, or be prepared to stand them off after they open range and continue their fire once the initial assault fails. Neither one of those are attractive alternatives, but getting tossed over your own transom with your throat cut has a pretty high suckage quotient as well.
Were I planning this, every adult capable of handling one safely and effectively would have a sidearm available. In the only times I've had to carry a sidearm in a marine environment, I found a Glock quite satisfactory. It came off a lot better exposed to salt spray than the Beretta M9s the coasties we encountered a couple of times were carrying. I bought my first Glock in 1990 with the specific purpose of carrying it in a marine environment, and had ocasion to carry it several more times subsequently. It never gave me any problems.
I think you did really well finding a Winchester 1300 marine version- those are nice guns, and sadly out of production now. Learn to run it really well, and lay in a good stock of heavy loads for it- 00 or 000 buck, Brenneke rifled slugs (I like Brenneke KOs- not the sabot stuff though), maybe even some Dixie Tri-Ball ( http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html ).
You can pretty well select your pattern size by picking different brands/loads of buckshot. A CYL or cylinder bore barrel is no drawback here. For wide open patterns, the cheap stuff (Rio, S&B etc) with unprotected soft lead pellets will get you there as a rule. The run-of-the-mill buckshot from leading manufacturers will get you mid sized patterns most of the time. And the expensive premium stuff- Federal with FliteControl wads, or Hornady TAP FPD, likewise with FliteControl, will get you amazingly tight patterns out of many barrels at pretty surprising distances. For this application, I personally would stay away from any of the reduced recoil loads. Reduced recoil means either reduced velocity or reduced payload or both, and I don't want either when it's for serious.
I don't really see any use for anything other than serious lead projectiles, personally. The "blammo ammo" stuff is a mere novelty, IMHO. If I'm going to unlimber a shotgun for serious, I want to blow big honking holes in stuff, period. YMMV of course. It's your neck after all.
This stuff will be painful to shoot in a gun that doesn't weigh about eight pounds or so, adding some weight to the gun by filling some of the stock voids with lead shot might be a help.
When I was experimenting with the then-new FN Police Pump (a 1300 clone) a couple of years ago (see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170316 ), I found recoil with heavy loads unpleasant in the relatively light weight shotgun. I added a 2-shot magazine extension for more weight up front, and filled the void under the pistol grip cap in the synthetic stock with lead shot as well. If you wanted an extended magazine on your 1300, you could always get the extension plated to match. A better recoil pad might help too.
I'd get as many 12 gauge marine type shotguns on board as there were people capable of using them safely and effectvely in the crew. Remington's 870 Marine Magnum is a bit heavier from the factory, with its all steel receiver, and they are still being made. The Mossberg 590 is made in a marine finish as well, and they are good guns. I don't have any experience with the new Charles Daly in the chrome finish, or otherwise, so I can't offer an endorsement for it yet.
I'd make sure at least one person on the crew had a full blown shotgun class, if you do decide to depend on scatterguns as primary armament. Louis Awerbuck or Randy Cain come immediately to mind as the instructors I would look for. Then that person could work with everyone else on the crew to hone their fighting shotgun skills.
JMHO, YMMV, FWIW,
lpl
So you have two choices, essentially, as far as I can tell. Clear their decks promptly and completely upon first contact, or be prepared to stand them off after they open range and continue their fire once the initial assault fails. Neither one of those are attractive alternatives, but getting tossed over your own transom with your throat cut has a pretty high suckage quotient as well.
Were I planning this, every adult capable of handling one safely and effectively would have a sidearm available. In the only times I've had to carry a sidearm in a marine environment, I found a Glock quite satisfactory. It came off a lot better exposed to salt spray than the Beretta M9s the coasties we encountered a couple of times were carrying. I bought my first Glock in 1990 with the specific purpose of carrying it in a marine environment, and had ocasion to carry it several more times subsequently. It never gave me any problems.
I think you did really well finding a Winchester 1300 marine version- those are nice guns, and sadly out of production now. Learn to run it really well, and lay in a good stock of heavy loads for it- 00 or 000 buck, Brenneke rifled slugs (I like Brenneke KOs- not the sabot stuff though), maybe even some Dixie Tri-Ball ( http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html ).
You can pretty well select your pattern size by picking different brands/loads of buckshot. A CYL or cylinder bore barrel is no drawback here. For wide open patterns, the cheap stuff (Rio, S&B etc) with unprotected soft lead pellets will get you there as a rule. The run-of-the-mill buckshot from leading manufacturers will get you mid sized patterns most of the time. And the expensive premium stuff- Federal with FliteControl wads, or Hornady TAP FPD, likewise with FliteControl, will get you amazingly tight patterns out of many barrels at pretty surprising distances. For this application, I personally would stay away from any of the reduced recoil loads. Reduced recoil means either reduced velocity or reduced payload or both, and I don't want either when it's for serious.
I don't really see any use for anything other than serious lead projectiles, personally. The "blammo ammo" stuff is a mere novelty, IMHO. If I'm going to unlimber a shotgun for serious, I want to blow big honking holes in stuff, period. YMMV of course. It's your neck after all.
This stuff will be painful to shoot in a gun that doesn't weigh about eight pounds or so, adding some weight to the gun by filling some of the stock voids with lead shot might be a help.
When I was experimenting with the then-new FN Police Pump (a 1300 clone) a couple of years ago (see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170316 ), I found recoil with heavy loads unpleasant in the relatively light weight shotgun. I added a 2-shot magazine extension for more weight up front, and filled the void under the pistol grip cap in the synthetic stock with lead shot as well. If you wanted an extended magazine on your 1300, you could always get the extension plated to match. A better recoil pad might help too.
I'd get as many 12 gauge marine type shotguns on board as there were people capable of using them safely and effectvely in the crew. Remington's 870 Marine Magnum is a bit heavier from the factory, with its all steel receiver, and they are still being made. The Mossberg 590 is made in a marine finish as well, and they are good guns. I don't have any experience with the new Charles Daly in the chrome finish, or otherwise, so I can't offer an endorsement for it yet.
I'd make sure at least one person on the crew had a full blown shotgun class, if you do decide to depend on scatterguns as primary armament. Louis Awerbuck or Randy Cain come immediately to mind as the instructors I would look for. Then that person could work with everyone else on the crew to hone their fighting shotgun skills.
JMHO, YMMV, FWIW,
lpl
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That is where a 64 or 96 mile radar in the hands of a well versed operator paying close attention to the screen comes in handy as heck. when an operator is entering dangerous waters, the gain knob gets cranked a little tighter so you could basically see the fin of a porpoise approaching
Brent
Radar is a great idea - you'll know what's going on around you - including the weather. We use it to avoid weather here in FL (and to find flocks of seagulls where the tuna are).
As for shotguns - the 870 is a better gun than Charles Daily or Mossberg. I've been hunting ducks iun salt water for 30 years and have had my 870 for 20 of them - same gun, not 1 failure. Can't say the same for the Mossbergs.
If a load of buckshot can kill deer to 70+ yards, why can't it do the work on a person? Think 00 or 000 for distance and #4 for close work (inside 50 yards). I have no idea what a buckshot pellet does to a wrist or ankle but I bet it hurts.
I would look more for the AK/Mini-30 route with 30+ round magazines and high capacity handguns - 9mm with 18 round clips for side arms. The ARs are expensive and the bullets aren't much different.
What I wanted to say was that you now have to practice shooting at moving targets while you are moving! LOL!
Nothing worse than shooting some trap or skeet a couple of times before you go - you need to lead and not stop your swing. It will also give you an excuse to get use to the 12 ga and pumping it....and loading it as you shoot.
Teach the wife the AK/Mini-30 and handguns. You can handle the shotgun work.
Kevlar to the hull won't stop bullets - 150 gr rifle bullets will go all the way thru the boat - side to side.
As for shotguns - the 870 is a better gun than Charles Daily or Mossberg. I've been hunting ducks iun salt water for 30 years and have had my 870 for 20 of them - same gun, not 1 failure. Can't say the same for the Mossbergs.
If a load of buckshot can kill deer to 70+ yards, why can't it do the work on a person? Think 00 or 000 for distance and #4 for close work (inside 50 yards). I have no idea what a buckshot pellet does to a wrist or ankle but I bet it hurts.
I would look more for the AK/Mini-30 route with 30+ round magazines and high capacity handguns - 9mm with 18 round clips for side arms. The ARs are expensive and the bullets aren't much different.
What I wanted to say was that you now have to practice shooting at moving targets while you are moving! LOL!
Nothing worse than shooting some trap or skeet a couple of times before you go - you need to lead and not stop your swing. It will also give you an excuse to get use to the 12 ga and pumping it....and loading it as you shoot.
Teach the wife the AK/Mini-30 and handguns. You can handle the shotgun work.
Kevlar to the hull won't stop bullets - 150 gr rifle bullets will go all the way thru the boat - side to side.
Lee, I agree... But once you are in well open seas, any vessel making direct headway to your position is reason to give concern... Ready the vessel and crew for anything. In less than secure waters, all firepower should be accessible in rapid order with at least your first line of defense nearly fire ready.
One more thing for prepping the arms and ammo... I said color coding the ammo to make it easier for others to assist... Why not put a like color of electrical tape wrap on stock and barrel. Red paint on the 12 gauge ammo cans red tape on the shotgun, green tape on the rifle green paint... (well they are already green
)
Brent
One more thing for prepping the arms and ammo... I said color coding the ammo to make it easier for others to assist... Why not put a like color of electrical tape wrap on stock and barrel. Red paint on the 12 gauge ammo cans red tape on the shotgun, green tape on the rifle green paint... (well they are already green
)Brent
zombieslayer
New member
Dude, when zombie pirates attack, you need at least a battle rifle in .308 with lotsa magazines. a 50 BMG on your deck would be the best you could do imho. i'd also have any glock in the flavor you like and a few mags as well. Hell, I have 50 lbs of ammo just in my truck!!!!!!!!