Shock and Awe ammo sequence to combat (real) pirates

Aside from medium machine guns like M60's or M2's, I would go with M1A's (M14's) with a combination of armor piercing and ballstic tipped anti-personell rounds. They will give you a lot more range than an AK and a reasonoble chance of damaging the small vessels pirates are likely to use. They can also be effective in close range rapid fire if need be. The US navy has used M14's for a long time.
 
Long, Medium, and Short

--M1 grand in 30-06 it will handle your long and medium with armor piercing and ballistic tipped anti-personnel. It has a reasonable clip for a rifle (not over M14 but it's 30-06 not 308). You should choose between the M1 or M14
--12 Gauge Slug (auto or pump not side by side or over under)gun for short and medium (slugs will shoot thru a car trunk)
--50 S&W or 44 Mag Handgun caliber. Armor piercing or ballistic tip, show stopper for close to medium.

Those guns will allow you ability to punch into a ship let alone a boat. You could also fire buck shot/dragon breath thru your slug gun barrel in a shtf scenario and you wont mind dorking up your barrel. I live buy the: least amount of calibers and take a butt load more ammo system of beliefs and I think that is worth looking into.
 
I studied a bunch of pirate attacks for my International Criminal Law class last semester, and I can say that when pirates are confronted with any force, they go and find an easier target. They are looking to get rich, not injured or killed.

Just about any arms you can handle well will do the job. They have been chased off with handguns on numerous occasions, and even fire hoses and thrown deck chairs a few times (although firearms seem to scare them off a lot better).

Take whatever will draw the least amount of attention from authorities. Shotguns would probably be a good bet. Slugs would probably be a good choice for ammo.

"Exotic" shotgun loads are something to stay away from in general. They don't work. If they did, they would be in common use and not exotic.

Although "bird bombs" and flares could work for signaling purposes.
 
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While we are going away from the OP's question, I say look here. www.tnwfirearms.com/guns_m2hb.shtml
As stated in others posts, a shotgun loaded with novelty shells is not gonna cut it against real honest to god pirates. Get some AKs or M1As at least. Real rifles with a good capacity. Know how to shoot them. Hope you don't have to.
 
The problem will be what you need versus what you can lawfully carry. While you need to be able to protect yourself against pirates you also need to ensure that you are not going to get arrested when you dock.

some parts of asia are well known for this type of 'misunderstanding'.

I understand that an appropriately loaded flare pistol (magnesium burns very hot) at short range can be a very effective improvised weapon.....
 
In international maritime travel, I feel that is the one time I need "hidey holes" and to keep my mouth shut at port! You never know what port you may be forced into due to weather and sea conditioners or un expected repairs. You may be forced to port in a corrupt place where the guns alone are reason to hijack the vessel and feed yer tied up self to the fishes...
This isn't teotwawki... it is realistic "Semper Paratus" for any maritime operator, commercial or recreational...
Hey if you have not done so already I highly suggest you read "Survive the Savage Sea" by Dougal Robertson...
Home...
http://www.survivethesavagesea.com/SSS.html
Check the various links... The "dougal" link has some info and pics out of the book.
This family spent like 43 days adrift. It contains a ton of tips of severe survival to include the improvised tools and methods as well as food options such as there is a drop or more of fresh water between every vertebrae of a saltwater fish. Raw meat handling, Sea turtles for the meat blood and eggs... This book is an ABSOLUTE MUST READ in my opinion for anyone who will overnight at sea for even one night...
feel free to ask me direct questions as I spent years building a mental survival guide for just such adventures.
Brent
 
The problem is that these days, with pirates getting their hands on the good stuff, they can reach out and touch you from a much longer range. An RPG has an "effective" ( depends on who you ask. I say about 100-150yds.) 300 yard striking distance. And a Browning M2 .50 BMG is effective to about 1000 yards. Same with the Russian DSHK. OTOH, You would have to wait for them to close to about 100yds to do anything with that Mossy. Hmmmm...... All I can say is...... Good Luck.:o
 
Skan, These pirates are not usually approaching with arms drawn. They are trying to look like commercial/recreational fisherman or beggars. You have, likely, many seconds to bring your arms to action before they can. The rifle in semi auto with 20-30 round mags is a heck of a deterrent. It can be brought to bear from 300 yards out. If your travel companion will bring a gun to bear... the more the merrier.... If they bring them to bear on you, at least you tried, The persons aboard a small recreational vessel usually have little monetary ransom value so expect to be executed anyway. Fight first, fight hard and die trying.. the only unfair fight is the one you lose!
In international waters you are the king, president, chief pot scrubber and the police force of a sovereign island...
All rules are for you to make, interpret, and execute.
Brent
 
Hey Brent, coulda sworn he said he had some hand cannons and that mossberg. Didn't mention rifles. You'd have a better chance with a few rifles, but if they have a Ma Deuce or RPG, (Terrible Pirate Voice) "Thar still goin' to be seein' Davy Jones' Locker. Arrrrrgh!"
 
Hi guys, thanks for all the insight.

Hogdog makes the good point that most of the time, pirates will approach looking like fishing vessels. (We even know of some who brought local "gifts", then proceeded on board to hold the captain at gunpoint while raping the wife and daughter). This was my reason for wanting a warning shot if we can't raise them on the local radio channels (which would be suspicious, but not uncommon) and thinking a shotgun might make sense for close work.

So, now I'm leaning toward a .308 or .338 semiauto good for both close work and/or decent mid-range sniping. The M1A Scout Squad seems like a decent choice, but I'd love to find something tried/tested in a marine environment. And, a full size M1 is just a little too long. As such, the SOCOM makes sense for tight quarters (shooting out of portholes), but concerned about the distance/accuracy.

Also, FYI - as far as the port/legal aspect, we have pretty sweet (but expensive) hidey-hole built for our long guns. In port, we surrender a beat up old .38 special and a .22 Remi that satisfies authorities who are thankful you are forthcoming. If they bring dogs on board, we leave a couple spent shells in the area of the hiding place so we can say, "Good, dog. You found the shells we use in the guns we already gave to your masters..."

BTW - Full auto just doesn't make sense to me unless at anchor in a still bay - or at very close range. If you haven't done it, shooting from a boat (especially a rolly sailboat) is not a simple task.

Anybody have much experience with the SA SOCOM 16?
 
I agree to the use of the shells near the hidey hole. Also for a rifle, a mini 30 in 7.62 has a bit more punch than the .223 mini 14... Being a "wooden rifle" it does not come across as mean as a AR or AK... That is my personal choice. 7.62 on up to .30-06... nothing under it.
You are absolutely right about full auto but I didn't reply to that as I was feeling out your knowledge and attitude.
A captn. can nearly equal full auto cyclic rate if conditions allow or require but in semi you can back off the rate of fire to do more with less. No pirate wants to face the muzzle of a 7.62 being used with "frugal abandon" :D The shot gun is equally intimidating and lethal from 60 yards on in to gunnel distance!
Brent
 
Defense against pirates for the small boat

Thanks is given to Capt Jeffery L. Kuhlman of Castle Security for his article in August 2009 edition of Maritime Reporter and Engineering News "The hardware of Vessel Defense' pg 21

While much of the article is pointed to merchant shipping he discusses the use of the shotgun, flares and other devices in vessel defense he makes strong mention of defensive sound devices.

This sort of equipment generates extremely powerful sound waves which most people find unbearable andd seek to go elsewhere in a hurry.

This type of device for a cruising pleasure craft jumps over many of the objections stated in earlier posts. -Effective, possession does not upset the governments of various ports which may be visited, non lethal, operable by one person as well as other considerations.

Having spent many years on the water beginning with small boats on the sailing team at the US Merchant Marine Academy Kings Point, in merchant shipping, long period in the US Navy including time with our former allies in the Republic of Vietnam. Owner and regular shooter of shotgun, (Browning, Remington, Beneilli over an equally lengthly period, I can see virtues in both lethal and non-lethal approaches.

I strongly suggest the OP look into defensive sound systems -not cheap by any means (think of a 50 cal with adequate ammunition) but well worth the cost if/when needed

pls call me at 757-651-1310 if I can be of assistance
 
bentley998 brings up a good point about using sound to deter pirates.

One problem is that LRAD units are pretty huge for a 40ft sailboat:
http://www.atcsd.com/site/content/view/15/110/

I should have mentioned more clearly that I'm all for using the VHF and Loud Hailer in tandem to warn off tailing craft. But, once they get inside a certain boundary (and they have proved that they won't be deterred),

There has always been a big debate about carrying arms at sea, whether is makes it more likely to survive (either by intimidation or an actual firefight), or more likely to escalate an attack. While I think this is a valid argument on merchant marine vessels where the pirates are most interested in taking valuables and cash/crew to be held for ransom (their life is worth something). It appears that the trend is different on small pleasure craft where there is no big shipping company (or insurance company) on the other end of the line, willing to fork over $100k-$250k per person. As a result, the crew of small pleasure craft are of little redeemable value to the pirates, therefore nothing but an extinguishable barrier to the ship's stores, electronics, women, etc... What happens to these boats? They (and their crew) just disappear. Period.

What is crazy to me is how brazen the pirates are, even attacking convoys to 5-10 yachts, betting on the fact that most Europeans won't have guns on board (only about 1-in-30 yachts in the Yemen and SE Asia are American) There are a couple of great stories online where the only weapon that the victims had was to turn their boats on the pirates to ram them (a 20 ton ketch can effective against a 1/2 ton fishing skiff).

If LRAD sound devices become more compact and cost effective, I'd be all for using it to replace my loud hailer. But, at the end of the day, an LRAD is no match to a Malaysian 50 yards out spraying the hull with fire from an AK47.

Thanks guys, I'm going to keep thinking through the Rifle/Shotty approach, with tactical plans well rehearsed (a lot of time on our hands in the South Pacific). If you think of any great ideas, let me know.
 
What happens to these boats? They (and their crew) just disappear. Period.
Click to expand...

Yep. It's particularly bad in SE Asia where they can easily sell stolen boats. The people on the boats are just an inconvenience to be gotten rid of at the soonest opportunity. Real bad news for the crew, armed resistance is the only real option.

The unarmed British marine security contractors have been using those LRADs for a while now with embarrassingly poor results. If you think that a painful noise is going to chase off pirates who regularly fire heavy machine guns with no ear protection, you may be in for a surprise. A lot of those guys are deaf as a post, and the rest seem very willing to tough it out.

But they will go look for an easier target when confronted with lethal force. It's a target-rich environment and they want to be wealthy, not dead or subjected to third-world medical care at sea.
 
While far from an expert on the subject, I've got my own ideas like everyone else. While the full auto crew has some valid points, I don't think buying and mounting an M-2 on your yacht will garner much sympathy from any nations coast guard you may happen to run afoul of. It's also probably illegal so your now asking for trouble from "legitmate" goverments who could care less that you have a Form 4 for it

I would lean to weapons that are multi purpose and effective but not necessarity military looking as there is no need to give the authorities more reason then they have to confiscate your stuff (which they may do anyway).

Were it me, everyone would have a sidearm, the same one in the same caliber to make logistics easier. I would probably stick to 9mm as that round is possibly easier to find in third world countries where .45 ammo may be hard to come by if you need to resupply. I don't suppose it really matters though as many countries forbid the possession of military calibers of any type for their populations so everything could be hard to find on the local economy.

Throw several mags in for each handgun along with some soft body armor. I'd probably also dump some money into a couple of the big surefire crew served weapons mounted lights and make mounting fixtures for them on the rails at various points around the boat.

Long guns would probably be a mix of pump shotguns (18 to 24 inch barrels)shooting a mix of slugs, 000 buck and maybe some Dragons Breath rounds if I could find them. I've never personally fired one but they look they would be intimidating as hell and, fired point blank into a small boat that was alongside (or close) trying to board may give the occupants something else to think about. You'd have to be careful with them as the wind would probably play the devil with them which could be dangerous to the good guys as well but, I'd probably try and have a few on hand just in case.

I like the 45-70 idea also, that and a couple heavy caliber bolt actons with good optics for taking out motors, crew served weapons and command elements. I'm not necessarily a big fan of the Mini-14 but it does not scream military rifle and is available in stainless so I'd probably throw a few of those into the mix as well along with as many factory mags as I could get my hands on. If I could find an old semi-auto Browning BAR (The hunting rifle) in 30-06 I'd grab one or two as they would make a good intermediate range, heavy caliber rifle with rapid follow up shot capability.

On the more exoctic end, I may even consider a couple of the 37mm flare launchers, which, depending on what you get, can be passed off as a safety/rescue device. I'm not sure what ammo selection is like for them but star clusters burn pretty hot and I'd hate to have one dropped in my boat which was full of fuel and explosives.

Whatever you choose, I'd get my crew up to speed and do some live fire drills shooting and moving around on a moving boat in full gear. Thats not something you want to first experience on the two way range

Good route planning would be your best defense though and trying to keep a low profile. Most goverments are nervous about boatloads of armed persons cruising their waters. No sense in inviting trouble.
 
couple of things.
There is (or at least, should be) no such thing as a warning shot.
If threat is implied, threat needs to be eliminated. Once the shooting starts, it won't be over until one of the parties flees or is conquered. And in a sailboat, you ain't fleeing.

You should develop a healthy perspective of paranoia that needs to be backed up with a threat reaction plan. Then practice your plan until you can do it blindfolded.

In many (most) cases of pleasure boat piracy, the victims did not suspect a bad outcome until the malefactors were within lethal range. By then, unless you're willing to take them down with you, it's too late to react and even if you do, you're likely to be faced with overwhelming firepower. They, unlike you, don't care about port of call laws on firearms and will be armed to the teeth.

Odds are, if they take your boat, they will kill you. Odds are, if they have an RPG, they're going to take your boat. If so, you're going to die; you just have to decide if you're going to die fighting.

Much good advice given already, but some things you might want to consider:

A strong defensive position. 4" of fiberglass hull between you and the bad guys is not a strong defensive position.

Body armor. Speaks for itself.

Forget automatic weapons. If you get caught with one, you will be your own reality show (In Jail Abroad). Consider a pump Remington 7600p (.308) with synthetic stock. Good to 3-400 yards and pump action allows you to stay on target whilst sending lead down range. Plenty of .308 rounds that will get the job done in terms of hull and motor piercing, as well as HTE (human threat elimination). Back that up with 12 gauge Remington Marine Magnum with lots and lots of 00. I know some folfs aren't in favor of exotic rounds, but there's one or two you'd want to have handy.

1) Dragon's Breath. The worst thing that can happen on a boat, and the one thing that demands everyone's attention is fire. Even pirates have to stop what they're doing to fight a fire. A couple of magnesium rounds placed center hull above the water line would be an option you'd want to have.

2) Armor piercing rounds. Yes, they exist.

3) Shell crackers. Not particularly lethal, but scary.

4) Signal flares for 12 gauge. They burn in excess of 2000 degrees. i consider this a dual-purpose round.
 
Dragon's Breath
Click to expand...

Ha!

Have you ever fired one of those things? They are a joke. About a 5 yard maximum range puff of little sparkler bits. Totally useless for setting anything on fire except dry grass or open buckets of flammable liquid.

Avoid.
 
Dragonsbreath.jpg


Maybe so. Maybe not. I'm not talking the $5/round stuff you can from Atlas Ammo.

There are some zirconium/magnesium/beryllium based exothermic rounds that might change your opinion. Kinda pricey, hard to find, and you'd want it to be the last round you shot until you've cleaned the gun, but those molten "sparkler bits" burn white hot for about 15-30 seconds.

Like I said, nothing gets attention on a boat like a fire.
 
Have you fired a rifle from a moving deck at sea at a bouncing target? I have, not an easy hit under good sea conditions. Practice when you get out to sea.
Ditto to knowing the laws of whatever coastal waters you may find yourselves in. Third world prisons will not be kind.
Only exotic round for the 12 gauge I would work well with the flares is the screamer that oddball company Blamm Ammo made years ago, supposed to be a LOUD screaming noise when fired.
Shoot fast and don't give up, follow Josey Wales' advice, "Get mean, I mean plum mad dog mean!"
Molotov cocktails into a boat next to you might be interesting, but dangerous to the thrower as well. Lit magnesium flares thrown into an open boat can also cause the opponent some consternation. Long guns should have bayonets mounted, as ridiculous as it sounds, to help repel boarders.
Just some random thoughts, not to be taken as any expert opinion of any kind.
 
The best sort of shock and awe you can deliver in the event of a pirate attack is big ragged holes in both the pirates and their boats. Marine type pump shotguns with buckshot and slugs (Brennekes) are the least expensive way to accomplish that, if the gunners are disciplined enough to lay low till the BGs are in range before taking them under fire, and then are fast, accurate and ruthless when they do open up. But having weapons on board boats docking in many overseas ports is gonna be a problem. Pirates are a 'maybe', port calls are a certainty.

GI surplus rocket boxes or artillery ammo tubes might be a possible way of stashing the hardware in an out of the way spot before making port, and recovering it after leaving...

http://www.unclehumpssurplus.com/155mm-howitzer-t155.html

http://www.armysurpluswarehouse.com/product/steel-rocket-box-3812.cfm

http://www.armysurpluswarehouse.com/product/120mm-mortar-can-2582.cfm

Best of luck with both,

lpl
 
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