Setting the shoulders back for the first time.

To whom in may concern:
In other words, if the loads aren't being fired from a machine rest, no one will ever know the difference.
Click to expand...
Those are Snyper's words, not mine which he's trying to imply by starting out with "In other words..." Had I meant that, I would have said that.

Snyper, I think you're ignorant (not stupid) about what humans can do to determine what's good to do reloading ammo that shoots most accurate without artificial support of them and/or the rifle and ammo.
 
Well, my cases have now been annealed, neck-sized and trimmed (where needed: some did not need it.).
That was a busy saturday night! (I'm sure our guests thought me riveting company!)

They just need primers and I can load them!! :D

They didn't feel strange when I sized them, so I guess the metal has survived its candle experience.

A few reloadings and I'll have chamber sized cases and I can return to FL sizing with the die properly set up.
 
I think you could start full length sizing them right now. I don't understand your reasoning to neck size them first.

Regarding the "press slop" that happens when the full length sizing die doesn't touch the shell holder and case headspace has a couple thousandths spread. I've never seen any difference in performance between them and cases with zero spread in headspace. Redding makes shell holders with .002" steps in height so one will stop the case at the right point full length sizing cases to set its headspace as desired and have near zero spread.
 
Last edited:
Regarding the "press slop" that happens when the full length sizing die doesn't touch the shell holder
and case headspace has a couple thousandths spread. I've never seen any difference in performance...
Click to expand...
Bart, I don't think anyone (well, not me;)) is arguing press slop vice ballistic performance. Rather it's when
press spring leaves case headspace too long to reliably chamber that said slop/spring becomes a topic.
 
mehavey, then screwing the die down a few thousandths would fix that problem. Allowing for that press spring's been normal for decades setting dies for desired headspace range until Redding came out with their competitioin shellholders.

But I well understand its significance if it's not part of the die setup. I've let cases full up in my press's dies for several seconds and watched the gap between shell holder and die shrink as the press unsprung setting the case shoulder back another thousandth or two.
 
Last edited:
...screwing the die down a few thousandths would fix that....
Click to expand...
Roger all. ;)

Like many, I full length size (bolt gun) cases to a specific comparator headspace dimension minus
a thou or two for specific guns -- checked each session for both press and brass spring w/ use.
 
Bart, I don't think anyone (well, not me) is arguing press slop vice ballistic performance. Rather it's when
press spring leaves case headspace too long to reliably chamber that said slop/spring becomes a topic.
Click to expand...

Then there is verifying, my cases do not have head space, I believe that is a major source of confusion, many reloaders believe there cases have head space and every gage is a head space gage. I use the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

Then there is the question: What press does James use? Then there is the ability of the case to resist sizing. Then we need to understand the presses' ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

A reloader with basic shop skills should have the knowledge necessary to measure a cases ability to resist sizing. I went on a house call, a case was whipping a RCBS A2 press by .017", that was one tough case or one overrated press or an operator doing something very wrong.

F. Guffey
 
I think you could start full length sizing them right now. I don't understand your reasoning to neck size them first.
Click to expand...

But full-size them to what? I have not point of reference from which I can resize 0.002" shorter.

I have to know the headspace limits of my chamber before I can set up my FL die to resize the case's shoulders 0.002" short of those limits.

To know those limits I need to let my cases fill that space. In other words, shoot them with only neck sizing until they reach the point of being hard to chamber. Once that has happened I can take a measurement from datum to head and FL size them 0.002" shorter than that measurement.

That is my reasoning.
 
Your reference is the headspace of a fired case that was a normal maximum load. This has been the standard reference for decades. A once fired case will have headspace about .001" (.025mm) less than actual chamber headspace.

Set the full length sizing die to make sized cases with headspace averaging .002" (.05mm) less. This has been the norm for years to let the bolt close without binding with the normal spread across all resized cases for most rifles.

If the bolt face is squared up and a special shell holder's used, setting back fired case shoulders only .001" (.025mm) is good. There's only about that much spread across all cases.
 
Last edited:
To whom in may concern:
Quote:
In other words, if the loads aren't being fired from a machine rest, no one will ever know the difference.
Click to expand...

With discipline a reloader would measure the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head before sizing. I have gone to a firing range and purchased fired cases. My favorite fired cases are once fire and fired in someone's rifle with a trashy old chamber. I have purchased military cases from the Internet, most of the cases had to have been fired in machine guns, that is not a problem for me, I am one of the few that can measure the effect on the case caused by the abuse?

And how lucky for me. I have loaded, unfired military ammo, means nothing to anyone but I have cases for comparison. In Metal cans, fiber boxes and linked ammo.

F. Guffey
 
OK, well, too late this time!! I've just this afternoon primed all those cases.

It'll have to wait till after my next OCW test for my Norma Oryx loads.

Those cases'll need the whole anneal-to-resize treatment too.
 
Don't make it tougher or more complicated than it needs to be. Just use the Lee Collet die till the cases get snug and then bump the shoulder back. If you don't shoot hot loads, the shoulder might not need the bump for quite a while.

Don't assume that the FL die will give you better accuracy than the collet die will. Rifles are somewhat like people, in that they (and we) are built to the same basic specifications but are all different.
 
That unsized part of the case neck is smaller in diameter than the chamber neck; it floats free in the chamber neck.
Click to expand...

By how much? I do not make this stuff up. If the neck is neck sized the case body is not sized. Now we are back to finding an answer to the difference between firing a full length sized case and a case that is neck sized.

F. Guffey
 
Measure one with a ID mic and the other with an OD mic. It's the difference.
Click to expand...

Before that it was all about the bullet according to Sierra, all the reloader had to do was to manage to get a case between the bolt face and shoulder of the chamber. Fitting? never an issue, as you said the case could fit the chamber like a peanut with a hull in a violin case, and or, a punch bowl.

And now we are talking about a fire formed case and jump back, snap back or recovery by the memory of the case after firing. When fitting the chamber it does not get much better until the reloader fires it 4 more times. After firing 4 more times the case no longer has the ability to jump back, snap back or recovery by the memory of the case after firing. It is about then someone says "'you' gotta start over by full length sizing". I left 'me' out because I find it impossible to start over with a case that has been fired 6 times, I find it necessary to anneal.

Back to neck sizing, I have neck sizing dies, I have full length sizing dies and I have dies with big case bodies. I can neck size with one of the three or all three. When I use the full length sizing die I leave a portion of the neck un-sized, the un-sized part of the neck fits the neck better than my old hand me down shirts, that is better than a peanut in the hull in a violin case and or punch bowl.

And still there is a difference when firing full length sized cases and neck sized cases.

I must be the only reloader than can measure the difference in dimensions between the chamber and case.

F. Guffey
 
OK, well, too late this time!! I've just this afternoon primed all those cases.

It'll have to wait till after my next OCW test for my Norma Oryx loads.

Those cases'll need the whole anneal-to-resize treatment too.
Click to expand...
If your fired cases will chamber easily and allow the bolt to fully close, there's no practical advantage to moving the shoulders back at all, since it's already a near perfect fit for that particular chamber.
 
I must be the only reloader than can measure the difference in dimensions between the chamber and case.
Click to expand...
Anyone can take those measurements.

You took my comment about not being able to tell a difference out of context, since I was talking about accuracy and not case or chamber dimensions.

Even Bart said "the smaller groups stayed about the same size", which to me means there is no improvement in accuracy.

Plus all Sierra's testing is done from machine rests in an underground range, so it has little realistic comparison to the real world, other than to illustrate general trends
 
You took my comment about not being able to tell a difference out of context, since I was talking about accuracy and not case or chamber dimensions.
Click to expand...

Snyder, forgive, there was absolutely nothing I said that applied to one of your responses. I did not quote you.

Again forgive.

F. Guffey
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top