Setting the shoulders back for the first time.

I went back to the start of this and I never did see where the OP explained why he wanted to bump the shoulder back more than the die was already doing. Did I miss that?

Simply because previous threads had implied that pushing the shoulders back, just a bit, was good for case life and shot-to-shot consistency.

I have some good loads so far and I'd like to maximise them. Also, I use Norma cases and all my loads have been developed with them.

Getting new Norma cases, over here, is quite hard unless I buy off-the-shelf cartridges which have gone up a lot recently (25%), so I also want to make my current meagre stock of Norma brass last as long as I can.

In a nutshell, I reload, so may as well get the most from it!
(within reason)
 
When the die contacts the shell holder that is it.
No.

Only if the die contacts the shell holder -- even though the press has slightly
sprung away from the initial "no-stress" contact point
-- then that is it.

The slight "cam over" feel attained by screwing the die that nominal ⅛ turn
past initial no-stress contact ensures the the die makes contact -- even under
stress.

Then the die does its full length job.


.
 
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Getting new Norma cases, over here, is quite hard ...
James, please get the Hornaday Headspace Gauge Set. Then you will be able to
accurately, quickly -- and repeatedly -- set the shoulder back just enough to reliably
chamber during each reloading session.
 
One way you can get a very close measurement of your rifles head space, is to seat a primer in a full length resized empty case, then measure the oal of the case.

Chamber the empty case in your rifle and fire it. When you eject the case you
will see the primer protruding, measure the oal again, (over the fired primer) the difference between the two measurements will be the headspace for that case, not as exact as it could be, but it might do until you can do something else. Kind of gives you a starting place for adjusting the die.

Me,, I would just full length resize. Until I got the correct tools to measure everything.

Oh, another way is to fire the same case 3 times, partially full length sizing each time and set your shoulder back using that case.

To partial full length size, just back the die out about 1/16" or 1.5 mm.

Use a starting load. and check all loaded rounds for chambering effort.

Good luck.
 
James,

http://s860.photobucket.com/user/jepp2/media/DieAdjustment-1.jpg.html

Putting one of those labels on your die's lock ring helps make very small adjustments. Here's what the die looks like with that label on it.



1100 tac,

The amount that primer backs out of a case is called "head clearance." It's the space between the case head and bolt face when the round fires. Chamber headspace is the dimension from the bolt face to the chamber shoulder's reference diameter; .400" diameter for the .308.

I've never had a primed .308 case's primer back out of any amount when fired; did it dozens of times measuring case shoulder setback. Firing pin spring's are too strong. Even firing primed cases with a bullet seated but no powder inside; all had normal primer position with its head a few thousandths below case head. Handgun primed cases usually do back out when fired.

.308 Win. cases with more than a 10% reduced load usually end up with their primer backed out. That happens because the case is driven hard into the chamber shoulder by firing pin impact setting it back a few to several thousandths. There's not enough peak pressure to expand the rear half of the case back until its head stops against the bolt face.
 
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I'll just have a go, with the die turned out from the shell-holder and see what happens.
That's all you really need to do.

Some like to complicate things by overthinking them, or using tools you don't really need.

Measure the fired case, then run it through with the die set so it barely touches the shoulder, and measure again.

Repeat as needed while turning the die in deeper until you get the desired dimension to fit your particular rifle.
 
Bart B:
Not to argue, but my exp. has been a little different, I will say that that is not the greatest way, and I was a little hesitant to post it, but it helped me out some years back, and comparing with a Mo's gauge years later it was very close. The rifle involved in my case was an M1A, and the Hornady die I had at the time would REALLY set shoulders back!

I like that little label idea, and I could set lock rings up in my rotary table to engrave divisions permanently, but I have been using the Redding shell holder set along with a few custom ground shell holders done on my surface grinder.

I do like a hard set interface between the shell holder and the die, to solve problems with press slop. (I size rifle cases with a 40 yr old Rockchucker, I bought it new.) :D
 
that little label idea, and I could set lock rings up in my rotary table to engrave divisions permanently,
I suggested to RCBS decades ago that they stamp their aluminum lock rings on one side with 36 radial lines for .002" increments of die adjustment. And also for RCBS to make a case headspace gauge calibrated with a chamber headspace gauge long before they introduced their Precision Mic.

Sierra Bullets' first ballistic technician back in the 1950's may have been the first to champion precise setting of full length sizing dies to set fired bottleneck case shoulders back a thousandth or two for best accuracy. One of Sierra's tool and die men made case headspace gauges for different cartridges used to test their bullets.
 
No.

Only if the die contacts the shell holder -- even though the press has slightly
sprung away from the initial "no-stress" contact point -- then that is it.

The slight "cam over" feel attained by screwing the die that nominal ⅛ turn
past initial no-stress contact ensures the the die makes contact -- even under
stress.

Then the die does its full length job.

James verified his findings, he said when the ram was raised the shell holder was contacting the bottom of the die. Mehavey, that is it. When the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die the case is not holding it off. But even then it is possible to remove the die with the protruding case without lowering the ram. I remove the shell holder first then remove the die with the protruding case. After removing the die I measure the height of the case above the die. The case head protrusion should be .125" because the deck height of the shell holder is .125".

Sierra Bullets' first ballistic technician back in the 1950's may have been the first to champion precise setting of full length sizing dies to set fired bottleneck case shoulders back a thousandth or two for best accuracy. One of Sierra's tool and die men made case headspace gauges for different cartridges used to test their bullets.

The first ballistic technician claimed the case could fit the chamber like my hand-me-down shirts, my hand-me-down shirts only fit where the touched. there is a difference between a fired case that has been necked sized and a case that has been full length sized, then there is the mindlessly sizing of cases with total disregard for the length of the chamber.

Then there is the die protrusion above the press, I suggest reloaders purchases a height gage or a dial caliper to measure the height of the die above the press for making adjustments.

F. Guffey
 
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To the OP...this whole discussion is giving me a headache. Let's simplify all of this. You have fired cases (that were fired in your rifle) and you want to reload them and to also maximize case life. You are thinking that you need to set the shoulder back slightly more than your full length die is presently doing. That thinking may or may not be correct, depending on whether or not the shoulder really needs to be bumped back. If the fired case chambers easily, then the shoulder is fine right where it is, and you can neck size or partial resize if you wish. Some don't recommend that, and argue for FL sizing, due to concerns about maximum accuracy, but I can tell you (as others have and will) that it works just fine. It's only when the fired case is becoming a bit snug in the chamber that the shoulder needs a bit of adjustment. That's when you'll want to use the FL sizing die to bump the shoulder back. To do that without buying any new equipment, put a fired case into the shellholder and run it upwards toward the die. Have the die screwed back out a bit (the thickness of a nickel or a Euro should do it) from touching the top of the ram and shellholder. Size the case and then run it into the rifle and see if it chambers easily. Likely it won't, so screw the die in a bit (Bart's suggestion about lines on the die ring is something I wish I had been doing) and run the case into it again and then try it in the rifle. At some point the die will be screwed in enough that the case goes from a snug fit to an easy fit. Use the lock ring then, and unless you have multiple 308's, leave it there. What you are doing in this process can be referred to as finding the shoulder and then bumping it back just enough. This, and case neck annealing, will give you maximum case life. And Norma cases will last a long time. Years ago I wanted Norma cases for my 220 Swift, but didn't know how to order them. So, I bought loaded ammo and kept the cases and partial resized them for years. I didn't keep track of how many times I reloaded those cases, but it must have been 20 or 30 or more times. They never split at the neck, and I never had case head separations. I finally threw them away when the neck wall thickness got so thin (thin, not thick) that a newly acquired neck sizing die could not shrink the neck enough to hold the bullet. From there I went to WW cases for 25 years (fully prepped, with turned necks, etc.). I've just restocked with Norma cases, though haven't used them yet.

What you don't want to do, if you want to maximize case life, is to bump the shoulder back more than it needs to be. Multiple firings like that will definitely lead to overwork of the brass and to case head separations (in most rifles).

And...just to mention it. That same 220 is now wearing a new barrel and has a very snug chamber. The RCBS FL sizing die that I have, even when set to size as much as possible, won't resize the case enough to avoid a snug fit. In comparison, the factory chamber in the original barrel was quite roomy.
 
To the OP...this whole discussion is giving me a headache.

I do not allow this stuff to drive me to the curb. If I can not deal with a discussion with someone I do not know how can I deal with people I know and or do not know in the real world. There is a difference,
in the real world most learn how to act before they meet me
.

in the real world most learn how to act in public before they meet me

Most learn to keep their hands to themselves in grade school.

F. Guffey
 
I did something similar with Redding to what Bart did with RCBS, though not as soon as Bart did it. I suggested they switch their steel lock rings from a diamond knurl pattern to a straight knurl, and even gave them the right knurl size (turned out a metric pitch worked best at their lock ring diameter) to give them either 71 or 72 "teeth" (what the US coin mints refer to as "reeds" around the edge of a coin). Since about 71.4 teeth would correspond to exactly 0.001" die adjustment per tooth of rotation, either count is close enough to make adjustments on a loading die.

I still think either that or Bart's imprint are good ideas. I just figured that since they were knurling anyway, that wouldn't add an operation. They just had to wait until their old knurls were in need of replacement, then replace them with the metric pitch knurl I identified. Redding thanked me for the suggestion, and that was the last I heard of it.


I think James probably mistyped and meant a 0.05 mm feeler gauge (about two thousandths). If you cut your own from shim stock you can make a good fit, and even steel shim stock is soft enough that you can clamp it between two thin steel plates to hold it for drilling either a ¼" or a 6.5 mm clearance hole for ejecting primers through, should you need such a tool.

The confusion for me centers on the question, why do the cases need their shoulders set back more than the FL die normally does it? James said he normally resizes in a full-length die and trims and shoots. So it sounded to me like the FL die was already setting the shoulder back more than enough to fit his chamber, and that James had maybe misunderstood the posts on setting shoulders back to be referring to setback that was in addition to what the FL die already produces. That's backwards, in a sense, as the accuracy idea is to reduce the amount of setback normally produced by an FL die to just that which is required and no more. That's what extends case life.

If you have a short chamber or if you pick up brass that was fired in a chamber that is longer than yours, then the FL sizing die may fail to set the shoulder back enough for your chamber in one pass, and then you have the need to use a feeler gauge or a short deck shell holder or a die with its mouth ground back. In the case of long brass from another's chamber, you usually only have to do that extra sizing and setback effort one time in the life of the case. Once the brass has been fireformed to your chamber, you normally no longer need to use the special tools.

The only potential exception that comes to mind is one mentioned earlier, and that is if the brass has work hardened enough to become very springy at the shoulder. This is unusual as too springy to change size in one direction is also too springy to change in the other direction, but with a large enough chamber it can happen, and I've had cases the refused to hold onto a bullet because of it. If you have this issue, it's time to anneal the necks and shoulders to stress relieve them so the necks don't split and the shoulders set back more easily.

If you've never annealed before and you don't intend to do it more often than necessary, I recommend you start with the candle flame method because, though slow, it is almost impossible to overheat the brass with it. You just hold the case head between your thumb and index finger and roll it back and forth in a candle flame playing on the neck and shoulder. The rolling motion is to spread the heat evenly and the soot tells you if you are missing anywhere. Once the temperature gets too high to keep hanging onto the case any longer, you slap the case down on a damp towel while drawing and turning it over the towel to wipe the soot off, then leave it there to finish cooling. It's a slow process, but it works. When you get used to it, you can learn to use a torch flame, which is faster. But your timing is more critical with a torch because it can overheat and over soften the brass. It's not uncommon for overheated annealed brass to require re-annealing every three to five firings to avoid neck splits. Proper annealing can get you a dozen or more reloads without neck splits, though this does depend on your exact chamber and die dimensions and how close they are.

With his home made gauge, assuming it is similar to the improvised spacer types that Bart and I have posted our photos of before, James should be able to make the comparative before and after shoulder position measurements to determine shoulder setback in his die. Buying the Hornady comparator adapter kit is a convenience, as it covers a wide range of chamberings, but if you are shooting just one chambering, or if you are living where reloading tools are extra expensive, as James is, it makes sense to make or improvise your own. The idea is to find what size the cases come out of the chamber with, and then size the case only enough to set the shoulder back another thousandth. Two thousandths is usually used for a self-loader, but unless you are shooting a rapid fire pace from the bolt gun for matches or special training purposes, you don't really need that extra setback. It is just used for extra rapid feed reliability insurance. The need for it is probably an overabundance of caution in most instances. If take a case that has sprung back 0.001" and take it back another 0.001", you already have a 0.002" difference, and that is all the difference there is between most new .308 Win ammo and a minimum chamber.

I would not recommend the Forster Bump Die for what James is doing as it only moves the shoulder back and does not narrow the sides of the case. You actually have to do both if you want the case free to self-center in the chamber, which happens when the case shoulder is driven into the chamber shoulder by the firing pin. There has to be some sideways clearance for that to work. You typically don't get accuracy that's quite as good, otherwise.

There are exceptions. If you can select cases that are absolutely perfectly symmetrical inside and out, so they expand symmetrically under pressure, and you have a chamber that is perfectly symmetrical about the bore axis so heads don't fireform out of square, and you have a bolt face that is perfectly square to the bore axis for the same reason, and that enjoys full and even bolt lug contact when closed, then neck sizing only will give you accuracy that is theoretically going to be as accurate and it will give you the longest case life. The problem is that first step. Finding perfect cases that won't expand more on one side than the other and move the neck off-center for the next loaded bullet is the main problem. If I find more than a dozen out of 1000 measured cases, I feel lucky.
 
Thanks to 603Country for that explanation.

As this thread has progressed, I have realised something that it seems Unclenick also concluded (without having access to my head's internal workings!), as described here:

The confusion for me centers on the question, why do the cases need their shoulders set back more than the FL die normally does it? James said he normally resizes in a full-length die and trims and shoots. So it sounded to me like the FL die was already setting the shoulder back more than enough to fit his chamber, and that James had maybe misunderstood the posts on setting shoulders back to be referring to setback that was in addition to what the FL die already produces. That's backwards, in a sense, as the accuracy idea is to reduce the amount of setback normally produced by an FL die to just that which is required and no more.

I think I have, ever since first hearing of it, misunderstood what bumping the shoulder has actually meant. I think I also had not fully understood what a FL die actually does and where bumping comes into it; that when bumping the shoulders back it is a case of less is more. My FL die has always been screwed up against the shell-holder and so no doubt I have been setting shoulders back more than is necessary

My first port of call has been to see if my cases fit in the chamber as of now, prior to any die exposure! They do. Effortlessly. So I think this means that in its current configuration, my FL die is probably only going to push those shoulders back even further from the the chamber walls than they already are. Time for the collet die?

If it comes to replacing my Norma cases, I may have to opt for Lapua. At least those can be obtained easily here, or PRVI is also an alternative. The alternative is buying fresh Norma cartridges at a €1.20 a pop!!

On the subject of annealing, I shall have to have a go. I haven't learnt a new reloading process in at least 10 days!! Time for something new!

Following on from the above, I recently loaded the last of my primed Norma cases (excluding those I plan to prep soon) and one had such a loose neck that I could just pull the bullet out between finger tips. I ran it though the collet die (which presently has no decapper) and after that it was tighter but still not very tight.

Is this a sign of a case needing annealing?
Should I also discard it from my test group?
(1 of 5 from low end charge in my latest OCW string)
 
Yes, it sounds like it has work-hardened to the point the neck doesn't accept resizing adequately. Annealing should fix that.

Since you've been FL sizing all along, you probably need to check for incipient head separation. Take a paper clip and bend the tip of one end over with some pliers to form a small hook. Run it into the cases to feel for a depression immediately in front of where the head meets the wall of the case. If you can feel that clearly, the case is at end of life.

When you over-resize, the head clearance (excess headspace behind the head when the firing pin drives the cartridge forward) is how far the head has to stretch back, pulling brass thinner at that head/wall junction. By not pushing the shoulder back more than necessary, the head clearance will be smaller, so the case will thin that area less with each firing.

A lot of folks like Lapua brass better than Norma, so I don't think you'll be disappointed with that at all. Both were equally uniform among the cases I've measured.

How did you get a Lee Collet Die with no decapper? Did the pin break, or are you actually using it without a mandrel?
 
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How did you get a Lee Collet Die with no decapper? Did the pin break, or are you actually using it without a mandrel?

It broke when I took to decapping scrounged .308 brass (not Norma) without checking if it was Berdan or Boxer primed. The mandrel decided that repeatedly punching a whole though brass was too much.

Since then it has been quite handy for resizing necks without decapping, for example when I have had to pull bullets to redo a charge.

So, should I ditch that case from my OCW string an make that charge a 4 shot group?
 
I swear, I think some of you must be retired engineers or out of work rocket scientists with nothing to do but think of stuff for replying to threads.

Don't misunderstand me, if I had not been (still am) a math phobic, I would have been an engineer and I don't mean the type who operates trains.
 
Two people I learned a lot of things from on the details of reloading good ammo were not technical or scientific engineers. One owned and operated one of the largest vegetable farms in California. The other was a decendant of Spain's Basque sheep herders managing his own thousands of sheep in California. Both top ranked high power rifle competitors.
 
Well, I adjusted my FL die so that there was no stiction (rad contact) between die and case, and extended the mandrel so that it was out far enough to remove the primer.

I now have totally unresized cases, minus the spent primers.

Next I'm going to check for signs of case head separation. I have steel O-ring removers that are perfect for detecting any internal groove: steel, rigid, long and sharp.

If they all pass I will anneal them with the candle method described above: I don't have a torch at the moment anyway, so it's my best option.

Once that is done, I will collet size them, reprime and START MAKING A NOTE OF HOW OFTEN CASES HAVE BEEN FIRED!!
Something I have not done so far! :o

I will then load them, shoot them, decap and collet size again until I reach a stage when the cases don't chamber easily. That is when I will set up FL die to set the shoulders back that 0.002".

I think... I may... finally... have understood this aspect of bottleneck case reloading.

If it all works, it will feel like quite a step forward in my reloading skillset!

Wish me luck! :D
 
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