Seen a Guy "Double Fisting" at the Range Today

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It's not far of a stretch that someone doing something that really doesn't confer any tactical/practical advantage is being either reckless or stupid.

Even if they are an expert "trick" shot, I really don't want people like that in the lane next to me.

Go into the woods/mountains to do that crazy stuff, away from the rest of us.
 
tom servo said:
That means the ceiling, floor, and equipment is in danger of being peppered, especially since folks doing it tend to do it fast.

EVERY indoor range that I've ever been to has had the ceiling, floor, walls, and equipment peppered by errant shots. Are there THAT many people shooting two-fisted???

thedudeabides said:
It's not far of a stretch that someone doing something that really doesn't confer any tactical/practical advantage is being either reckless or stupid.

You may not believe this, but some people shoot just for fun. They/re not interested in practicing ninja tactics for any "tactical/practical" advantage. I'll be sure to tell my granddaughter how reckless and stupid she is shooting those cans with her 10/22 since that's not going to confer any "tactical/practical" advantage to her.
 
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Is it unsafe to point-shoot a pistol with your right hand only?

Is it unsafe to point-shoot a pistol with your left hand only?

No and no, so long as the shooter is safe and competent. Folks who do the "dual wielding" thing don't generally fit that description. In fact, I've never seen or heard of someone who does.


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What exactly makes it so unsafe to do it with both hands?

Because it requires the brain to focus on two things visually and to perform two simultaneous actions that require fine motor skill. The brain doesn't do that well. The result? One of the guns (if even that) is not being controlled by the shooter. He can't be sure of where every bullet is going. That means the ceiling, floor, and equipment is in danger of being peppered, especially since folks doing it tend to do it fast.

It shows an irresponsible, immature mindset, and it's one of the things for which I'll summarily boot people from the range.
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This ^^^^^. Well said. +1.
The fact that other ranges may be peppered by poorly aimed/controlled shooting is immaterial (it is actually a tu quoque fallacy). Because other shooters have shot poorly is not a reason to allow unsafe behavior. Is it unsafe? Yes, I believe so. Shooting two guns at the same time means that the shooter is concentrating on neither.

The comparison to shooting with the weak hand as a way of justifying two fisted shooting is inapt....when a shooter is practicing weak hand shooting, that weak hand is where his focus is....there is no other gun being shot at the same time.
As a true ambidextrous person, I've always wanted to try this. I guess I'll wait for a private venue.
Shooting two guns at the same time has only a little to do with being ambidextrous. The real difficulty is focus...aiming....controlling two things at the same time. As I noted above, when I shoot weak handed, that is all that I am doing. I swing a baseball bat from the opposite side of my usual, that is all that I am doing. if I change my swing from left to right when splitting wood, I am still doing only a single thing at a time.
Also....given that there are people who can do this type of thing...they are uncommon folk. Citing a particular individual who can do this type of shooting successfully is a form of hasty generalization.
Pete
 
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You may not believe this, but some people shoot just for fun. They/re not interested in practicing ninja tactics for any "tactical/practical" advantage. I'll be sure to tell my granddaughter how reckless and stupid she is shooting those cans with her 10/22 since that's not going to confer any "tactical/practical" advantage to her.

If you're going to go to a firing range and carelessly send ammo downrange where it can splash back at you or others or damage the range (indoors) or go over the berm (outdoors) because you're blasting away for the "fun" of it... then go home.

There are plenty of responsible ways of shooting all manner of targets from bowling pins to cans that don't require you to go to a public range and blaze away with two semis.
 
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I shoot two .45 Colt 3 1/2 inch barrel single actions Taylor & Co.one in each hand. 200gr. RNL 6gr. Trail Boss. Won the New England Regional CAS this past summer With a clean shoot. I also shoot 1911 the same way. I am not a big guy 5' 2" 165lb. small hands. It can be done and I do it.:cool:
 
Oh crap. I cannot shoot just for fun any more.


So I surmise that some people here do not feel comfortable shooting two guns at the same time. Some people do feel comfortable. Some people don't think it provides any tactical advantage, and some people, who are responsible adults, can take responsibility for their abilities and know what they are capable of.
 
While I would never do this at an indoor range, or where anyone was right next to me, (and I have never actually "double fisted", "dual wielded", etc.) it sounds like fun! Given the chance, I'd like to try this.
 
Oh crap. I cannot shoot just for fun any more.

lol, I thought the same thing. Of course one of the major reasons is for fun. I can't agree with not being able to have fun.


So I surmise that some people here do not feel comfortable shooting two guns at the same time. Some people do feel comfortable. Some people don't think it provides any tactical advantage, and some people, who are responsible adults, can take responsibility for their abilities and know what they are capable of.

I don't think "some people feeling comfortable shooting two guns at the same time" has any bearing at all. I say that becasue if a person doesn't feel comfortable doing it, nothing is making them do it. In this case, they simply won't undertake the action.

In fact, I think your comment on 'responsible adults' is key to this entire issue. Here's why:

1) Any range, public or private, is for the people using it. The rules, whether public or private, apply to all and to all skill levels. or at least I've never seen or heard of a shooter with greater privileges in terms of what they are allowed to do when at the firing line. For example, I've never heard of a a range where say, you and I are next to each other on the line at the pistol range. I am not allowed to fire a carbine at that range, but you are allowed to do it while I'm there too.

2) Because the rules must apply to all skill levels, there is a necessary lowest common denominator. I am very responsible and I like responsibility. That doesn't mean I can point shoot two pistols at once, does it? No, all that means is I'll take repsonsibility for my actions, it says nothing to my ability to hit my targets or even point my pistols the right direction.

3) Any range I've been to says 'shoot at your target, no cross firing' and I have wondered why many times. I think it's because of the end positions. The guy next to the end position on each side, firing diagonally, may defeat the backstop. That's bad. The possibility of defeating a backstop when shooting two pistols at once cannot be ignored, especially when you consider you now have elevation inaccuracies to worry more about. A skilled shooter in this method wouldn't. Others would. The less skillful will outnumbered the skilled...and how do you ID the skilled and tell them from the inept? And that brings me to the most important aspect:

4) A range is supposed to be safe not just for an individual, but for all individuals at the range. You being "comfortable" with an act doesn't mean you're behaving in a manner that makes me or mine safe...or you safe for that matter. It just means you're comfortable giving me and mine a risk that you didn't ask us about, but which you will accept yourself. Your rights, as the saying goes, end were mine begin and I'm sorry, I don't give anyone permission to decide what risk level is appropriate for me and mine. I decide that, not you.

5) I don't feel ranges are typically set up to allow this type of thing to be as safe as traditional fire. Since traditional fire can and does sometimes result in splashback, "double handed" shooting introduces risk above and beyond what was considered acceptable safe to begin with.

Out in your back 40, with nothing behind the target? Waste all the ammo you want with two pistols at once. When at the pistol range? My opinion is act like that responsible adult and don't raise the risk to other people that didn't give you permission to put them at risk.
 
Originally posted by Tom Servo:

Because it requires the brain to focus on two things visually and to perform two simultaneous actions that require fine motor skill. The brain doesn't do that well. The result? One of the guns (if even that) is not being controlled by the shooter. He can't be sure of where every bullet is going. That means the ceiling, floor, and equipment is in danger of being peppered, especially since folks doing it tend to do it fast.


Apparently you've never played guitar or piano, or any type of sports where more than one hand is required. Checkers anyone? Do you stop the car to change the radio station or turn on the defroster? I hope so since humans can't safely do two things at once that involves using both hands and "it requires the brain to focus on two things visually and to perform two simultaneous actions that require fine motor skill". While it's true, many folks cannot chew gum and walk at the same time, there are many that can. While I do not Duo-wield myself, I see no reason why someone else when done safely could not. Funny how so many folks here whine about rules others want to make about gun usage and ownership when it applies to them, but are quick to condemn others for their usage. I teach Hunter Safety to young and new hunters. While I would not advocate duo-wielding, I certainly see it no less safe than blasting away as fast as one can with one gun.....and no more bigger waste of ammo.
 
Buck, you're proving the point though.

Anyone can pound away on a piano. That doesn't mean they are skilled at it. Anyone can strum a guitar. That doesn't make them Django Rheinhardt.

And have you seen people drive lately?

I resisted the urge to use this example but since you brought up cars:

I'm a damn good driver and I own a capable car. The speed limits still apply to me, even though I'm putting nobody at risk in my opinion, by exceeding them greatly. There's no special privileges afforded to a capable driver. In 1970, Dan Gurney- an exceptionally talented driver at every level, including F1, where he was considered a rival to the best in the world- was ticketed while competing in the Cannonball Run. The rules still applied to him, and he was arguably the most talented driver in the USA at the time. The rules applied to him because there's no way to ID him as special, so the lowest common denominator factor comes into play- he plays by the rules of the dummy, not by the rules of Dan Gurney.
 
Public/rental gun ranges.....

Ever go to a public range or gun range business & see things like frames different sizes or colors, patches over parts of the walls or ceilings, stuff that looks crooked or recently repaired?
That's because of shooters who shoot everywhere but the target! :mad:

Last summer(2013), my friend & I went to a Gander Mountain to shoot a M&P .45acp . The lane safety officer told us both to put the targets up upside down. :confused:
When I asked why, he explained that far to many customers come in & can not hit the human shape type cardboard targets! :eek:

That's scary but I could see his point.
 
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This is just another of the multitude of "the dumb guy at the range" or dumb guy/clerk at Wal-Mart/LGS threads where an author tries to show their superior skill or intelligence over someone they know nuttin' about. Then a hoard of others that need an ego boost for the day chime in about their superiority over this unknown starnger, while in truth, thier intelligence or skills are just as likely to be limited as his. Want evidence? How many positive "exceptional clerk at LGS" threads do you see compared to the negative ones. How many "Great guy at the gun range today helped me and taught me something!" threads do you see compared to the the "irresponsible stupid guy" threads like this one here. Is it because all the most skilled and superior intelligence gun enthusiasts in the world are members of gun forums? Yeah...that's it.:rolleyes:

The OP gave no proof of the shooter doing anything unsafe, other than doing something he doesn't do. He also told us besides not being any safety issues, that there were no range rules broken. Again should the range limit a shooter to one gun for both hands, make all shooters have both hands on their firearms at all times or just limit number of rounds per minute? How many times have I seen folks whine here because they cannot practice drawing, or fast shooting SD drills at their range. But now some of those same folks want someone else to be limited as well. This all comes down to safety and responsibility, not to shooting a gun one handed.

Originally posted by Chris_B: Buck, you're proving the point though.

Anyone can pound away on a piano. That doesn't mean they are skilled at it. Anyone can strum a guitar. That doesn't make them Django Rheinhardt.

In 1970, Dan Gurney- an exceptionally talented driver at every level, including F1, where he was considered a rival to the best in the world- was ticketed while competing in the Cannonball Run. The rules still applied to him

The point being what? That those that can't play Guitar or piano generally only play with one hand and those that are skilled can play with both? Again....go back and read the OP. The shooter did not break any rules. Would having a rule against duo-wielding for the general public be a smart move? Maybe, IMO, depends on the range and the scenarios. But I wasn't there. I'm going off what the OP told us. That the shooter broke no range rules and did not do anything unsafe, or anything that a shooter with one gun would/could not do. I need more evidence before I would hang someone.

Originally posted by ClydeFrog:
Ever go to a public range or gun range business & see things like frames different sizes or colors, patches over parts of the walls or ceilings, stuff that looks crooked or recently repaired?
That's because of shooters who shoot everywhere but the target!

Yep....and using the criteria I see in this thread, since a few folks can't hit a target shooting one gun slowly, none of us should be allowed to shoot at all.
 
Because it requires the brain to focus on two things visually and to perform two simultaneous actions that require fine motor skill. The brain doesn't do that well. The result? One of the guns (if even that) is not being controlled by the shooter. He can't be sure of where every bullet is going. That means the ceiling, floor, and equipment is in danger of being peppered, especially since folks doing it tend to do it fast.

It shows an irresponsible, immature mindset, and it's one of the things for which I'll summarily boot people from the range.

How do you function in public?

Driving a car requires the use of one or both feet, two hands and head on a swivel. Add in a manual transmission and things get a little trickier.

The guy at the range did not do anything wrong. Did he hit the target, who cares as long as the bullets went in the safe direction.

Did he waste ammo, why in the world would anyone care how much ammo someone else is "wasting"/ shooting, mind your own business!

The guy was having fun and he does not need your permission to do so as long as he is following the rules of the range, which as far as we have been told, did not mention anything about shooting two handed.
 
buck460XVR

This is just another of the multitude of "the dumb guy at the range" or dumb guy/clerk at Wal-Mart/LGS threads where an author tries to show their superior skill or intelligence over someone they know nothing about. Then a hoard of others that need an ego boost for the day chime in about their superiority over this unknown stranger, while in truth, their intelligence or skills are just as likely to be limited as his. Want evidence? How many positive "exceptional clerk at LGS" threads do you see compared to the negative ones. How many "Great guy at the gun range today helped me and taught me something!" threads do you see compared to the the "irresponsible stupid guy" threads like this one here. Is it because all the most skilled and superior intelligence gun enthusiasts in the world are members of gun forums? Yeah...that's it.

Good point. Well done.
 
Sort of the same category . . .

I was at an indoor range this weekend when a 60ish fellow took the lane next to me and brass started coming over the divider at the rate of about 2 per second. When he paused to change mags I glanced at his target and saw about half as many holes as the number of bangs I had heard, and none of them were within 6 inches of each other. He went through another mag in the same way, then ran another target out to the same 30-foot mark and repeated his performance. After a few targets, he packed up and left. No more than 2/3 of his shots had been on paper, and there was never anything resembling a group to be seen.

I didn't report him to the range because I didn't seem him do anything patently unsafe, but I did not feel very comfortable, and I kept half an eye on him while he was there. Why? My thought was that if he was so lacking in good sense and firearm knowledge that it didn't occur to him to slow down or move the target in, or anything else to improve his shooting, then I couldn't count on him to follow basic safety precautions. He has a right to burn up ammo purposely, but a pistol is still a potentially dangerous instrument if not handled correctly, and I have a right to expect a certain amount of caution and good sense when one is handled in my presence, too.
 
This is just another of the multitude of "the dumb guy at the range" or dumb guy/clerk at Wal-Mart/LGS threads where an author tries to show their superior skill or intelligence over someone they know nuttin' about.

What are you going on about? How did I "try to show my superior skill or intelligence over someone"?

In my OP, I said he was blasting away like in the movies and that is what he was doing, blasting away in rapid fire with two hands. In my opinion, it was unsafe looking. That said, I wasn't the one to say anything to the range officers. They saw it first, as my back was to the window when I was talking to them as I was signing out for the day. They are the ones who decided it was not safe conduct for their range and put a stop to it. All I asked was if people ever saw this or not at their public ranges.

Some people wrote back and asked how is that "not safe" and I answered with one possible senerio that I thought it might be less safe then shooting with one gun.

I, in no way, was trying to "show my superior skill or intelligence" with my post. It was the first time I seen someone do that and I related it to the forum and asked a question. If you look at my post history and when I joined this forum, you will see that I only just started shooting handguns this past July. I started late in life as I did not grow up in a family that shot guns (I'm still the only one in my family that does). I started shooting shotgun a couple of years back with a co-worker. So I am pretty green to pistol shooting. So, your deduction that I am trying to lord myself over others is way off base. I think you are reading to much into this.
 
I was at an indoor range this weekend when a 60ish fellow took the lane next to me and brass started coming over the divider at the rate of about 2 per second. When he paused to change mags I glanced at his target and saw about half as many holes as the number of bangs I had heard, and none of them were within 6 inches of each other. He went through another mag in the same way, then ran another target out to the same 30-foot mark and repeated his performance. After a few targets, he packed up and left. No more than 2/3 of his shots had been on paper, and there was never anything resembling a group to be seen.

I didn't report him to the range because I didn't seem him do anything patently unsafe, but I did not feel very comfortable, and I kept half an eye on him while he was there. Why? My thought was that if he was so lacking in good sense and firearm knowledge that it didn't occur to him to slow down or move the target in, or anything else to improve his shooting, then I couldn't count on him to follow basic safety precautions. He has a right to burn up ammo purposely, but a pistol is still a potentially dangerous instrument if not handled correctly, and I have a right to expect a certain amount of caution and good sense when one is handled in my presence, too.

I have shot at targets, hitting everything I was aiming at, yet to someone standing next to me, and that person not knowing what I was aiming at (different section of the target), it may look like I did not know what I was doing.

This guy could have been a gunsmith (properly trained or garage style) checking out his work, playing with a new gun or a new shooter that did has not been properly trained or a hundred other reasons for not hitting, what you consider to be, his mark.

You feeling unsafe because he didn't not hit the target as often as YOU think he should have hit it, is YOUR problem and something you need to deal with, leave the other guys alone…
 
Apparently you've never played guitar or piano, or any type of sports where more than one hand is required. Checkers anyone? Do you stop the car to change the radio station or turn on the defroster? I hope so since humans can't safely do two things at once that involves using both hands and "it requires the brain to focus on two things visually and to perform two simultaneous actions that require fine motor skill".

The comparisons strike me as inapt. The piano and guitar ideas are a good try but neither falls into the same class of action and sensory input as shooting.....you can play instruments blindfolded.....not shooting though....different skill sets (though one does have to, at least when learning, read music and use one's hands, the experience and the result of an error are quite different.)
And driving.....I suspect that the average driver is diverting, at least momentarily, his or her attention from the act of driving the car to the act of turning on the radio or the heat or whatever.

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This is just another of the multitude of "the dumb guy at the range" or dumb guy/clerk at Wal-Mart/LGS threads where an author tries to show their superior skill or intelligence over someone they know nothing about. Then a hoard of others that need an ego boost for the day chime in about their superiority over this unknown stranger, while in truth, their intelligence or skills are just as likely to be limited as his. Want evidence? How many positive "exceptional clerk at LGS" threads do you see compared to the negative ones. How many "Great guy at the gun range today helped me and taught me something!" threads do you see compared to the the "irresponsible stupid guy" threads like this one here. Is it because all the most skilled and superior intelligence gun enthusiasts in the world are members of gun forums? Yeah...that's it.
Good point. Well done.
While some of that may be true, the motives of posters for good or ill has nothing to do with whether the act of "two fisted shooting" is safe practice.
I suspect that doing such shooting outdoors may be a tad more acceptable than shooting so at an indoor range where the limits of walls floors and ceilings are more constrained.
At a range that I supervise, I will stop a shooter who is shooting rapid fire at a 3 yard target even if all the holes are on the paper. Why? Because the range is longer than 3 yards. Many shooters will shoot a bit "down" when shooting rapidly, especially at COM at larger human torso silhouettes...the result is that the bullets do not make it to the backstop but skip off the floor before they get that far. Makes a mess of the floor after a while and ruins some of the downrange lighting that is set into a well just beyond where the bullets impact.
There are, for sure, many elements of safe and sensible shooting that are not stipulated in posted range rules. Because a particular practice is not expressly prohibited, does not mean that it is OK to do it.
Y'know the old maxim: Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.


Pete
 
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