Seat Belt Laws: At Any Cost

g70 said:
stephen, your insistence on logic is totally unacceptable.
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I'm so sorry. You are absolutely right. We should just go with what we feel. I feel your comment is idiotic. Is that okay?

And you compound your error by applying old-fashioned and thoroughly discredited concepts.
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And which "thoroughly discredited concepts" might those be? That he should obey the law or at least appeal his case rather than doing nothing?

Not to memtion citing irrelevancies that contribute nothing to the propagation of the rant-du-jur.
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What do you consider irrelavent? That he supposedly resisted? Do police officers routinely walk up and spray people with pepper spray for seatbelt violations? Police officers aren't even supposed to use ANY force if you cooperate. I've already stated that if this is a case of brutality, then it should be handled accordingly. Making too many ASSumptions without sufficient information, while not allowing for any other possible excluded details is irrelavent. Okay... Whatever :rolleyes: :barf:
 
Russ,

Do you live in the good ole US of A? We have the ability to appeal our case before a judge. We have the right to petition that stupid laws be revoked. We do not have to right for blatent disregard for the law, no matter how stupid we may think they are. Please don't make silly comparisons to laws that would never pass.
 
Stephen,

Obviously quite a few are as amazed about the seat belt laws as they would be about clothing color laws.

Yes, I believe the police used excessive force considering the situation (he's not a murderer or anything) and what the "witness" said. If we aren't going to believe the witnesses or what this second article said, how do we know any of it is true? Maybe all this is made up.

"According to witness accounts, Edgar was very cooperative. Some say that he was thrown on the ground so hard, the thud could be heard inside their houses. One woman even admits that she heard Edgar scream for help twice and heard the officers threaten to choke him if he didn't stop. That doesn't seem to be so transparent."

"We acknowledge that our officers used force, but it has to be determined if they used excessive force," Allen Police Chief Bill Rushing said.
 
All I'm saying is that what if a law stated you had to dress in all green on Wednesday? What if you broke that law? IMO, you are certainly not a criminal for that, but could someone put out a warrant for your arrest if you decide not to pay the ticket or try to fight it? (because do you really think you have a chance of winning anyways? you weren't wearing green! You'll surely lose that one).
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If the law said I had to wear all green on Wednesday it would give me a chance to utilize some of my wardrobe I don't normally get much occasion to wear. But seriously, if such a law existed, I'd likely follow it regardless of how idiotic I thought it was (and believe me, I'd think it was idiotic), and if for some reason I did break the law, I would pay the ticket and not let it get to the point that people are issuing warrants for my arrest. I can't fathom why anybody would neglect taking responsability to that extent.

If for some reason I was feeling totally crazy and decided not to pay, then yes, I would expect that if I encountered the police at some point down the line and they ran me through the system, the fact that I failed to pay my fine for not wearing green would pop up on their computer screens. You can't ignore things like fines and hope they'll just go away.

As for fighting minor violations when you're obviously guilty as sin and getting off... well, I'm not even going there. There can easily be another 10 pages of debate on that subject. ;)
 
I guess now the real question is, how much did this guy resist? From the witnesses, sounds like excessive force was used. And if excessive force was used, it could have been because the police don't know what the warrant was for. He could very well have been a murderer in the eyes of the police.

And if the police are going to act like this for every person who has a warrant, maybe we should find a way of letting the officers in on what this guy really did to receive the warrant, or find another way of giving him ONE more chance. If he doesn't respond to a letter, go get him.
 
ATW,

Agreed. I could pull those standard issue olive drab military clothes out of the closet and not look like a freak in public :D

I'd pay a seatbelt ticket, and figure most people here would do the same, especially after seeing what could happen if you don't. Regardless, I'd like to see more on this situation and find out if the officers were using excessive force. If they thought he was honestly a hardcore criminal, there should probably be some way of letting the officers know that the warrant was for failure to pay a seatbelt ticket.

Then again, if the guy pulled a gun on the police, excessive force wasn't used, and someone who'd go to those extremes when confronted by the police probably has what it takes to be a murderer in the first place. There's quite a bit to look at. Personally, I'd like to hear more details on this matter before going any further.
 
I just read page 6-10, and still the posts are filled with:

-appeal to emotion

-straw men

-factual misrepresentation/distortion

- :rolleyes:
 
I guess now the real question is, how much did this guy resist? From the witnesses, sounds like excessive force was used. And if excessive force was used, it could have been because the police don't know what the warrant was for. He could very well have been a murderer in the eyes of the police.
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If excessive force was used that's a problem with the officers in particular and not law in general.

However, we know at least some of the witnesses were inside their homes until at least the point where Mr. Vera was thrown on the ground, which means likely they werent' in position to witness the initial act of resistance. As for witness who may have witnessed the encounter from the start, we don't know who they are, or even if anybody did. We know at least some people in the neighborhood were related to him, and could possibly have given biased accounts to try and incriminate the officers.

Most importantly we still don't know the cause of death. Mr. Vera could have been sitting in his car dealing drugs (remember somebody called the police over the way he was acting), swallowed his drugs when the the police rolled up, became combative as the drugs started to enter his bloodstream, and his heart could have stopped when he ODed.
 
USP,

I'll answer yours right after Rich answers mine, so I'm guessing you're in for a wait :rolleyes:

It isnt a stupid inconsequential law if it were to effect you, I bet.
 
"It isnt a stupid inconsequential law if it were to effect you, I bet."

Sendec, I'm just curious as to what you meant by this.
 
Russ,

Yes, I believe the police used excessive force considering the situation (he's not a murderer or anything) and what the "witness" said. If we aren't going to believe the witnesses or what this second article said, how do we know any of it is true? Maybe all this is made up.
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I'm not saying this is made up. Im just asking you to define what the "situation" is. The "situation" is that he "supposedly" resisted. That is "supposedly" why the police pepper sprayed him.

The article mentions a witness seeing him slammed to the ground. Like I said, I do not in any way shape or form condone police brutality. I guess we will have wait for the facts to come out. For me this means police video and audio tape as well as an autopsy report. For me, a witness that was quoted in a newspaper article is not enough for me.

By the way, thanks for keeping your responses civil. :D I do appreciate the insight differing points of view offer, even if I do stick with my own opinions after the fact.
 
I'll answer yours right after Rich answers mine, so I'm guessing you're in for a wait
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Sendec-
I've let several of these comments go; I won't cut you that much slack repeatedly. Ask a pertinent question and you'll get a direct answer. Want to know my background, education, deeds and crimes? Check Google. I'm easily found. Google's how I found that you are not an active LEO or a "Multijurisdictional Trainer", as you claim, but a teacher of a certificate program in a semi-accredited "college" program, training kids to become Park Rangers in 9 weeks.

Truth hurts, sometimes, I'm sure.

Back on topic, if y'all please. This thread is NOT about the actions of the officers in the Vera case. If you wish to debate that subject, start another thread. This thread is about the Laws that caused this confrontation.

Thanks much for remaining on topic. Anyone who wishes to start a thread about my background, is free to do that also. ;)
Rich
 
Stephen,

True, this witness is all we have to go on right now. I've been looking for more info on this. My biggest question is whether the officers knew what the warrant was for. But even if they did know it was just for failure to appear for a seatbelt violation and he still heavily resisted, then their actions may have been appropriate. If he didn't resist...well, as was said earlier, we need more info in general. If I find anything and this thread is still going, I'll surely post it.
 
Russ-
The reason I'm demanding that we stay on the topic of the Law rather than the Enforcement Action should be explained:
- Enforcement "over reaching" is a fact of life; and we look to the administrative and judicial system to resolve. Then we put it out of our minds.
- Bad Law, on the other hand, does not go away until repealed. And if it's the type of Bad Law that turns good cops against good citizens and vice versa, then we need to raise awareness of the issue.

Police brutality, when it happens is exceptional and we don't paint the entire LEO profession with its brush.

Bad Law....that's a whole 'nuther story. And many here will continually drag the discussion of Bad Law into the realm of Bad Enforcement so that they can accuse you of LEO bashing. I'm not buying into that gambit.
Rich
 
Sorry about the OT, Rich.

The law certainly did pit what appears to be a good man against presumably good officers in this situation. This can happen all too easily with rights-violating laws such as this.

The repeal of the helmet laws in PA shows that there is possibly a way to repeal the seatbelt law as well.

As I quoted in a previous post (EDIT: post #82), though, the federal govt is pushing the seatbelt laws upon the states by threatening to take away highway funding. It's just one big chain in the end. The puppeteer decides which strings to pull and the puppet can do nothing about it.
 
Rich,

What makes the seatbelt law a bad law? Because it encroaches on our personal freedoms? Could it be because it actually saves lives? Please give us your definition of a bad law.

How about a brief lesson in how laws are passed. I'm sure you probably know it better than I do so I'll let you do it. Do you really believe (as some have suggested) that our legislators are sitting around only thinking about new ways to tax us? Do you really think that people would really vote for people like that or keep those people in office? Are we voters really that stupid and have we just had the wool pulled over our eyes? Maybe everyone in politics is just getting a great big laugh at how were are just stupid sheeple. I'm not a conspiracy theorists but I'm not a moron either (I scored just a few point above that level on my IQ test.)

Anyways, I find it pointless to argue about stupid laws and bring this scenario into play without looking at the other aspects. You mentioned that the police used deady force (if pepper spray can be considered that). Is this the typical response? Is the typical result of being pepper sprayed death? Is the typical response to being arrested resistance? Is there some posibility that enforcement should at some point become necessary if someone chooses to ignore a law, no matter how stupid it seems?
 
By the way Russ,

Police reports show that officers responded to a call about a suspicious person in the 1500 block of Mahogany Drive. That person was Vera, who, it was later learned, had gone to Allen to visit his cousin and was waiting in his car because she was not home at the time. The two responding officers attempted to arrest Vera after learning of an outstanding warrant from Irving (for an unpaid seat-belt violation).
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First of all, where in either of the posted articles does it say he was a good man? Second, if the simply stated the part that the police attempted to arrest Vera after learning of an outstanding warrent without stating what it was for, would you still be upset by the officer's actions?

Vera resisted and allegedly stopped breathing after being sprayed with oleoresin capsicum spray (a form of pepper spray) during the altercation. Officers successfully resuscitated Vera and took him to the Medical Center of McKinney.
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Notice how it says that VERA RESISTED. Notice how ALLEGEDLY only refers to his not breathing rather than the resistance.

I will not make excuses for him nor will I call him a good guy without knowing the whole story. Based on the two articles though (all we have to go on so far), is that he resisted arrest for an outstanding warrent and died as a result of being pepper sprayed. I know it is kind of hard to keep track of the facts. That is why I copied and pasted parts of the article. If you do find something new, please keep us updated.
 
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