Seat Belt Laws: At Any Cost
- Thread starter Rich Lucibella
- Start date
There's no threat of lethal force for not paying a $20 fine that I'm aware of.
I still don't see how one invariably leads to another. I'm sure there's many people who have gotten tickets for seatbelts and never had a warrant issued for their arrest. Why? Because they're responsable enough to pay their fines.
If you want to be a rebel and refuse to pay your fines, then that's on you. I have no sympathy for you. None what-so-ever. It's your choice not pay the fine.
If you run into the police and they find out you're a rebel and refuse to pay your fines and on top of it all you go ahead and resist arrest, get pepper sprayed and end up dead through some freak occurance... guess what? I still don't have any sympathy for you. Just like it was your choice not to wear your seat belt, and your choice not to pay your fine, it was your choice to become combative and resist arrest.
If you don't like a particular law, guess what? There's ways to change them. We have elected officials who write laws in this country and they can change those laws. We also have a court system where you can challenge laws and get them thrown out.
The appropriate answer would be to submit a "not guilty" plea and have your day in court. If you make the choice to not to pay the fine and then to physically resist if and when the police catch up with you, then it's you that made the choices to escalate things to that level.
Edward429451
Moderator
Too much extreme thinking from the LEO side of this one. Exactly two LEO's have demonstrated common sense in their posts (unless I missed one/more).
A slew of citizens have demonstrated common sense here. Without being teachers or having law degrees...
Maybe you extremist LEOs are how they say...overeducated.
A slew of citizens have demonstrated common sense here. Without being teachers or having law degrees...
Maybe you extremist LEOs are how they say...overeducated.
Sendec, the real point of this debate is, "What business is it of your's, mine or the goobermint's if Crazy Charlie refuses to cut his grass, on his private property? OR What business is of your's, mine, or the goobermint's if Crazy Charlie refuses to wear his seatbelt, in his car?
What greater good is there to be gained by society at large by coersing (sp?) Crazy Charlie to cut his grass and noxious weeds (or wear a seatbelt) at govt gunpoint?
Who is being physically hurt/assaulted or being deprived of property by Crazy Charlie not mowing his lawn (wearing a seatbelt)? Who and where is there a victim of this so-called crime?
How is justice being served by enforcing such an inane law?
How can you expect Crazy Charlie to react rationally when you insist on enforcing such a stupid, inconsequential law knowing that it'll provoke a negative response?
The real issue is that govt is meddling in places where it should have never been allowed to go in the first place, and there are too many in LE that blindly go forth and enforce these encroachments on personal freedom without ever giving it a second thought.
The public at large is noticing it. Why can't LE take notice of the direction we're headed? Have you ever asked yourself why members of this and other forums whom I believe are responsible and productive citizens, seem to be at loggerheads with LE when these subjects come up for discussion?
Thank you for the kind words Rich.
I just try and do what's right.stephen426
New member
Holy crap! 24 hours and freaking 5 pages worth of posts more! We sure got some people riled up on this one.
Rich,
Say we put in intermediate step in there after this guy fails to pay his fine or even respond at all. Say he was sent letters and even a summons to appear in court to pay his fines. As ATW525 pointed out, 2 years passed since receiving his ticket. With the other fine enforcement methods in place in Texas, it is likely that his case escalated from his inaction.
How about we talk about something even more stupid than a seatbelt infraction. What about unpaid parking tickets? How the hell am I harming anyone by not putting some money in the meter. Hell, I'm not even a risk to myself. (I'm not trying to get people riled up about parking tickets now!) Say I continuously ignore the fines. Then they either suspend my license or don't allow me to renew my registration. What if I continue to drive? Furthemore, what if I RESIST ARREST? Does a police officer have any right to stop me for resisting? I'd hate to think how many criminals would actually get caught if the police had to let anyone who was resisting go free rather than risk killing them with pepper spray.
I also need to make one thing VERY clear. I'm not advocating the use of force. If the police abused their power and this is a case of polie brutality, than the police should be held responsible and charged. If there is evidence that Vera was truely resisting and was possibly a threat to the officer, then he got exactly what he deserved, regardless of however stupid the original reason he had a warrent.
As for code enforcement and failure to comply, this varies from city to city. In Miami Beach, they will put a lien on your property and block any permits. If you continue your construction without permitting, you may get more fines and the police may ask you to cease and desist. I guess further ignoring them would get you arrested. Anyway you look at it continuous disregard for the law will lead to undesirable situations. Resisting arrests (assuming Vera really did resist) can only lead to a worse outcome.
Rich,
Say we put in intermediate step in there after this guy fails to pay his fine or even respond at all. Say he was sent letters and even a summons to appear in court to pay his fines. As ATW525 pointed out, 2 years passed since receiving his ticket. With the other fine enforcement methods in place in Texas, it is likely that his case escalated from his inaction.
How about we talk about something even more stupid than a seatbelt infraction. What about unpaid parking tickets? How the hell am I harming anyone by not putting some money in the meter. Hell, I'm not even a risk to myself. (I'm not trying to get people riled up about parking tickets now!) Say I continuously ignore the fines. Then they either suspend my license or don't allow me to renew my registration. What if I continue to drive? Furthemore, what if I RESIST ARREST? Does a police officer have any right to stop me for resisting? I'd hate to think how many criminals would actually get caught if the police had to let anyone who was resisting go free rather than risk killing them with pepper spray.
I also need to make one thing VERY clear. I'm not advocating the use of force. If the police abused their power and this is a case of polie brutality, than the police should be held responsible and charged. If there is evidence that Vera was truely resisting and was possibly a threat to the officer, then he got exactly what he deserved, regardless of however stupid the original reason he had a warrent.
As for code enforcement and failure to comply, this varies from city to city. In Miami Beach, they will put a lien on your property and block any permits. If you continue your construction without permitting, you may get more fines and the police may ask you to cease and desist. I guess further ignoring them would get you arrested. Anyway you look at it continuous disregard for the law will lead to undesirable situations. Resisting arrests (assuming Vera really did resist) can only lead to a worse outcome.
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
Back “in the day” I served on several oral boards for new recruits. The following was one of our favorite lines of questioning:
Why do you want to be a deputy sheriff?
To help folks and serve my community.
If you’re selected will you enforce all the laws of the state?
Yes, I will.
All of them?
Yes sir!
Okay, let’s say you’re on patrol and you see an elderly lady take a stick of gum out of her purse and throw the wrapper on the ground. She’s committed littering in front of you. You gonna write her a ticket?
Uh, yeah, I guess so.
Fine. But, just before you get out of your car she gets on a bus. Now what?
Well, I guess I’d just let her go.
So the offense was important enough for you to get out of your car, but not important enough for you to stop the bus? Do you think our legislators put laws on the books for you to pick and choose which ones to enforce?
Uh, no. I’d stop the bus.
So you’re going to inconvenience an entire bus load of people to write and elderly lady a ticket for dropping a chewing gum wrapper?
By this time most recruits were sweating pretty good, and I’d say, “Let’s back up to your first answer; the one where you said you want to become a deputy “to help folks and serve my community....”
If selected they would go through the academy and learn a whole lot of laws and how to enforce them. Hopefully, however, they would remember that their new career was 10% training and 90% common sense. IMO, issuing a warrant for a seat belt law (yes, I know it’s issued by the court) does not fall into the latter category.
Denny
Why do you want to be a deputy sheriff?
To help folks and serve my community.
If you’re selected will you enforce all the laws of the state?
Yes, I will.
All of them?
Yes sir!
Okay, let’s say you’re on patrol and you see an elderly lady take a stick of gum out of her purse and throw the wrapper on the ground. She’s committed littering in front of you. You gonna write her a ticket?
Uh, yeah, I guess so.
Fine. But, just before you get out of your car she gets on a bus. Now what?
Well, I guess I’d just let her go.
So the offense was important enough for you to get out of your car, but not important enough for you to stop the bus? Do you think our legislators put laws on the books for you to pick and choose which ones to enforce?
Uh, no. I’d stop the bus.
So you’re going to inconvenience an entire bus load of people to write and elderly lady a ticket for dropping a chewing gum wrapper?
By this time most recruits were sweating pretty good, and I’d say, “Let’s back up to your first answer; the one where you said you want to become a deputy “to help folks and serve my community....”
If selected they would go through the academy and learn a whole lot of laws and how to enforce them. Hopefully, however, they would remember that their new career was 10% training and 90% common sense. IMO, issuing a warrant for a seat belt law (yes, I know it’s issued by the court) does not fall into the latter category.
Denny
Is it possible that issuing arrest warrants for non-criminal violations of traffic laws is excessive use of police force? (note for clarity: Not excessive use of a police force, but of police force.)
You bet.
If you say no it isn't excessive, then why aren't arrest warrants issued for failing to pay library fines?
You bet.
If you say no it isn't excessive, then why aren't arrest warrants issued for failing to pay library fines?
It looks like there are several possible solutions to prevent this type of situation from recurring:
(1) Vote to eliminate stupid, nanny-state laws.
(2) Leave the feel-good laws on the books, but don't have a mechanism for their enforcement.
(3) Let LEOs have discretion to decide which stupid laws they won't enforce.
(1) Vote to eliminate stupid, nanny-state laws.
(2) Leave the feel-good laws on the books, but don't have a mechanism for their enforcement.
(3) Let LEOs have discretion to decide which stupid laws they won't enforce.
Hey, stephen! That's another thing! What's with all these parking tickets?!? Nah, j/k. 
But seriously,
"How can you expect Crazy Charlie to react rationally when you insist on enforcing such a stupid, inconsequential law knowing that it'll provoke a negative response?"
Interesting thought, stevelyn. I think there's a lot of truth that the more absurd the law is that a ticket was given on, the more of an aggressive response an officer will get from the one getting the ticket. I know laws that remove our rights aren't created to make aggressive confrontations, but those who make the laws should really decide what kind of effects certain laws that infringe on our basic rights may have.
But seriously,
"How can you expect Crazy Charlie to react rationally when you insist on enforcing such a stupid, inconsequential law knowing that it'll provoke a negative response?"
Interesting thought, stevelyn. I think there's a lot of truth that the more absurd the law is that a ticket was given on, the more of an aggressive response an officer will get from the one getting the ticket. I know laws that remove our rights aren't created to make aggressive confrontations, but those who make the laws should really decide what kind of effects certain laws that infringe on our basic rights may have.
stephen426
New member
You know, I really think that we need to bet a better understanding of exactly what Vera's warrent was and exactly what he did that the police officers considered resisting arrest. You guys keep saying that he was issued a warrent for a seatbelt law. Are we even sure that is the fact? How do we get more information other than those two short articles? Could the arrest warrent been for anything else?
Would you guys considered issuing a warrent for driving with a suspended license even if this guy has never had an accident or even a moving violation? This guy had 2 years to do something about his ticket (one way or another) and chose to ignore the law and the fines. At what point is it acceptable to make him take responsibility for his actions, now matter whether or not you agree with the law?
That should be the issue here guys. That and the fact that he allegedly resisted.
Would you guys considered issuing a warrent for driving with a suspended license even if this guy has never had an accident or even a moving violation? This guy had 2 years to do something about his ticket (one way or another) and chose to ignore the law and the fines. At what point is it acceptable to make him take responsibility for his actions, now matter whether or not you agree with the law?
That should be the issue here guys. That and the fact that he allegedly resisted.
It doesn't matter whether you believe a law is stupid or not. You either follow it, or you risk suffering the consequences. There's proper ways to go about fighting laws you think are stupid and ignoring the law is not one of those ways.
As for laws and ordinances concerning the upkeep of property, they tend to on the books for several reasons. One of the main ones is that a single person who refuses to take care of thier property can devalue an entire neighborhood which has a direct financial effect on everybody who lives there. Some forms of property neglect can also pose health, safety and fire hazards that put not only you and your property at risk but the lives and property of your neighbors.
I don't think it's a matter of still not paying it 2 years later. He's not staying up late at night worrying about it or having nightmares. I see it as the same violation 2 years after as 2 weeks after. IMO, such force should not be used after 2 weeks/months/years. There should just be some other way of treating this guy like less of a criminal (a letter seriously sounds like a better solution). Yes, he should pay since he did violate a law (as pointless and rights-invading as it happens to be), but should not be treated like a criminal.
What if he owned his own business, and they used this force on him infront of his own business? That certainly would not look good to any of his customers. Heck, with that convincing story in the second article presented, you'd think he had a meth lab somewhere and was selling to elementary school kids.
What if he owned his own business, and they used this force on him infront of his own business? That certainly would not look good to any of his customers. Heck, with that convincing story in the second article presented, you'd think he had a meth lab somewhere and was selling to elementary school kids.
stephen426
New member
I just wanted to let you guys know how freaking lucky we are to be living in the US of A, no matter how much you might bitch about Nanny laws. I am curretly in Spain right now for work (yeah, I know its late as hell) and you guys would freaking have a massive heart attack over the nanny laws here. Let me rattle a few off just so you feel so bad about the seatbelt law... which they have here as well.
1. You are required to have a flourescent yellow or orange vest with reflective material on it in your car in case your car breaks down. You are required to wear this vest if your are outside of your broken down vehicle.
2. Motorcyclists and even moped drivers are required to also wear this same stupid vest at ALL TIMES. Don't even think about not wearing a helment.
3. You are not allowed to talk on the cell phone while driving without a hands free device. I know this has passed in a few states already and its not a bad law for stupid people who can barely walk and chew gum.
There are quite a few more but I am getting frustrated just thinking about it. Now what would make some freakin sense is if they didn't switch from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and back again without any signage. They should also do something about lane discipline on traffice circles. They should also do somethings about the idiots who decide to park their cars on moving lanes because they are so GD important it doesn't watter who the hell they inconvenience. Okay... I'm getting too worked up with this... Time to move on!
1. You are required to have a flourescent yellow or orange vest with reflective material on it in your car in case your car breaks down. You are required to wear this vest if your are outside of your broken down vehicle.
2. Motorcyclists and even moped drivers are required to also wear this same stupid vest at ALL TIMES. Don't even think about not wearing a helment.
3. You are not allowed to talk on the cell phone while driving without a hands free device. I know this has passed in a few states already and its not a bad law for stupid people who can barely walk and chew gum.
There are quite a few more but I am getting frustrated just thinking about it. Now what would make some freakin sense is if they didn't switch from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and back again without any signage. They should also do something about lane discipline on traffice circles. They should also do somethings about the idiots who decide to park their cars on moving lanes because they are so GD important it doesn't watter who the hell they inconvenience. Okay... I'm getting too worked up with this... Time to move on!
stephen426
New member
Russ,
Please tell me after all these pages of posts that you still think FORCE was used to enforce a seatbelt violation. FORCE was used because he was allegedly RESISTING. FORCE BEGETS FORCE, especially when it is you job to enforce the law. How many letters do you want to send this guy? He has ignored it for 2 years. What if he ignores your letter? Are you just going to keep sending them? I think that he has to be responsible for his own actions. First of all, handling the fine in a resonsible manner. Secondly, not resisting arrest! (No matter how stupid he feels the law may have been). I think the time to appeal the absurdity of the law passed about a year and a half ago. It is not the time to appeal it when you already have a warrent for your arrest. By that time, its time to cough it up or tell it to the judge!
Please tell me after all these pages of posts that you still think FORCE was used to enforce a seatbelt violation. FORCE was used because he was allegedly RESISTING. FORCE BEGETS FORCE, especially when it is you job to enforce the law. How many letters do you want to send this guy? He has ignored it for 2 years. What if he ignores your letter? Are you just going to keep sending them? I think that he has to be responsible for his own actions. First of all, handling the fine in a resonsible manner. Secondly, not resisting arrest!
(No matter how stupid he feels the law may have been). I think the time to appeal the absurdity of the law passed about a year and a half ago. It is not the time to appeal it when you already have a warrent for your arrest. By that time, its time to cough it up or tell it to the judge!Heyyy....Relax, ATW. I can grasp concepts. No need to take a poke at me.
"Here's a thought...
I know this is a difficult concept to grasp...
But perhaps... just perhaps...
If he didn't violate laws, he wouldn't have been treated like a criminal?
I know it's a stretch, but you never know..."
All I'm saying is that what if a law stated you had to dress in all green on Wednesday? What if you broke that law? IMO, you are certainly not a criminal for that, but could someone put out a warrant for your arrest if you decide not to pay the ticket or try to fight it? (because do you really think you have a chance of winning anyways? you weren't wearing green! You'll surely lose that one).
"Here's a thought...
I know this is a difficult concept to grasp...
But perhaps... just perhaps...
If he didn't violate laws, he wouldn't have been treated like a criminal?
I know it's a stretch, but you never know..."
All I'm saying is that what if a law stated you had to dress in all green on Wednesday? What if you broke that law? IMO, you are certainly not a criminal for that, but could someone put out a warrant for your arrest if you decide not to pay the ticket or try to fight it? (because do you really think you have a chance of winning anyways? you weren't wearing green! You'll surely lose that one).