Seat Belt Laws: At Any Cost
- Thread starter Rich Lucibella
- Start date
Good Laws should be easy to understand, their basis should be obvious to the average person, their enforcement should be uniform, and the penalties they entail should be reasonable in relation to the crime. I realize that's a tall order, but I think all of those elements need to be present.
Regarding LEO/non-LEO confrontations, I honestly believe most of them arise from trying to enforce Bad Laws, or from a lack of public respect for the law because there are so many Bad Laws.
I will probably be upset if I an charged with breaking a law that is so complex that I can't understand when I have crossed the line of breaking the law.
I will be upset if I am charged with breaking a law if I can't see any rational reason for the law.
I will be very mad if I'm the one who gets picked to be punished for breaking a law that is selectively enforced.
And I will be absolutely furious if I am charged with breaking some minor law that has a ridiculously severe punishment.
Regarding LEO/non-LEO confrontations, I honestly believe most of them arise from trying to enforce Bad Laws, or from a lack of public respect for the law because there are so many Bad Laws.
I will probably be upset if I an charged with breaking a law that is so complex that I can't understand when I have crossed the line of breaking the law.
I will be upset if I am charged with breaking a law if I can't see any rational reason for the law.
I will be very mad if I'm the one who gets picked to be punished for breaking a law that is selectively enforced.
And I will be absolutely furious if I am charged with breaking some minor law that has a ridiculously severe punishment.
Rich hit the nail, and the crux of the argument, on the head: it's a dangerous world.
Our attempts to make it 'safe', while doomed, have cost us more freedom than anything else ever will. People want SOMEONE to protect them from others, themselves, chance and statistical probability. It's enough to keep a sane man up at night, wondering what the public at large will tolerate to keep them 'safe'?-laws banning butter? Laws banning snowboards, jet skis, dirt bikes?
And (here's a tangent, I know, but hang on) God forbid we ever get nationalized health insurance. Imagine what will happen when the people who write the laws also pay your claims? Imagine letting your insurance company deciding what's an 'acceptable risk' for you, and using public cost as a lever on increasingly tight controls on behavior....talk about 'bad law'!
Larry
Our attempts to make it 'safe', while doomed, have cost us more freedom than anything else ever will. People want SOMEONE to protect them from others, themselves, chance and statistical probability. It's enough to keep a sane man up at night, wondering what the public at large will tolerate to keep them 'safe'?-laws banning butter? Laws banning snowboards, jet skis, dirt bikes?
And (here's a tangent, I know, but hang on) God forbid we ever get nationalized health insurance. Imagine what will happen when the people who write the laws also pay your claims? Imagine letting your insurance company deciding what's an 'acceptable risk' for you, and using public cost as a lever on increasingly tight controls on behavior....talk about 'bad law'!
Larry
The ironic thing is we all break such laws every day. There are so many federal and state laws that it is inevitable that we violate at least one a day, ranging from traffic offenses to environmental crimes. But we don't recognize them because no one has bothered to arrest us for them . . . yet.
TheeBadOne
Moderator
"The Police should not enforce...."
Here's my take on those who have spouted the above (either directly or in spirit).
That is the statement of:
-Laziness
-Impatience
Those who can't be bothered to get of the sofa see that as a "quick fix". Instead of doing the required work, the way it is meant to be, they instead say, "yeah, but that would work too"
As Americans, we are the "right now!" people. We want things and want them now, not in a week, month, much less a year. This isn't something I have a problem with (as long is it's not carried in an extreme), as I understand it myself.
However, those who can't be bothered to get off the sofa to effect change, and instead point their finger at LEO's and blame them, well, I do have contempt for them, for that thought process is what lies at the heart of many of our social problems.
jmho
Here's my take on those who have spouted the above (either directly or in spirit).
That is the statement of:
-Laziness
-Impatience
Those who can't be bothered to get of the sofa see that as a "quick fix". Instead of doing the required work, the way it is meant to be, they instead say, "yeah, but that would work too"
As Americans, we are the "right now!" people. We want things and want them now, not in a week, month, much less a year. This isn't something I have a problem with (as long is it's not carried in an extreme), as I understand it myself.
However, those who can't be bothered to get off the sofa to effect change, and instead point their finger at LEO's and blame them, well, I do have contempt for them, for that thought process is what lies at the heart of many of our social problems.
jmho
Rich Lucibella
Staff
TBO-
I think you misunderstand. Many of us are actively involved politically, giving both our time and money to various causes.
Nobody here is "blaming" LEO's; nor are we calling LEO's who operate on Zero Tolerance "wrong" (though, as Capt Charlie has pointed out, they may be rather short sighted). But the fact remains that YOU regularly ignore various infractions depending on the circumstance....you have to in order to get the important things done. Do you deny this and claim you write and arrest for every charge that is possible in every situation imaginable?
So, selective enforcement by LEO's is not an "alternative" to repealing those laws, I agree (and have previously stated). But it is one tool in a free society's tool box. Another would certainly be greater involvement by our LEO organizations in fighting the growing tendency of lawmakers to regulate every aspect of their non-badged compatriots' lives.....just as so many of us fought for National CCW for LEO's.
Rich
I think you misunderstand. Many of us are actively involved politically, giving both our time and money to various causes.
Nobody here is "blaming" LEO's; nor are we calling LEO's who operate on Zero Tolerance "wrong" (though, as Capt Charlie has pointed out, they may be rather short sighted). But the fact remains that YOU regularly ignore various infractions depending on the circumstance....you have to in order to get the important things done. Do you deny this and claim you write and arrest for every charge that is possible in every situation imaginable?
So, selective enforcement by LEO's is not an "alternative" to repealing those laws, I agree (and have previously stated). But it is one tool in a free society's tool box. Another would certainly be greater involvement by our LEO organizations in fighting the growing tendency of lawmakers to regulate every aspect of their non-badged compatriots' lives.....just as so many of us fought for National CCW for LEO's.
Rich
Heck of an attitude. You don't care how the silly law got there, but you'll just go about and enforce it anyway?
No wonder there is this ever widening "us v them" gap.
I've got news for you, if'n you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. You get riled because you say you don't see us citizens getting off our duffs to lobby to change the laws, and here, you're not even interested. I bet you don't get the irony of that....
Antipitas,
I've handled my share of fatal MVAs, that taught me all I need to know. What you think of my attitude doesnt bother me in the least, I know that we'll never have to share the task of loading a body bag, so you can take your sanctimonious attitude and whine along with the rest of the "thems"
I've handled my share of fatal MVAs, that taught me all I need to know. What you think of my attitude doesnt bother me in the least, I know that we'll never have to share the task of loading a body bag, so you can take your sanctimonious attitude and whine along with the rest of the "thems"
I believe if a person is an adult and they want to drive without a seatbelt on, let them. I've met a few fools that claim it's safer to drive without them, so if they want to risk it then it's no sweat off me.
But if a parent drives their child around without a seatbelt on, they most certainly deserve a ticket with a hefty fine. Risk your own life however much you want but I view the act of allowing a child to ride in a car without a seatbelt as much of a child abuse issue as smoking in the car with the windows up.
But if a parent drives their child around without a seatbelt on, they most certainly deserve a ticket with a hefty fine. Risk your own life however much you want but I view the act of allowing a child to ride in a car without a seatbelt as much of a child abuse issue as smoking in the car with the windows up.
Money?
Money for the insurance companies, and money for the local municipalities collected on tickets. Also, money on warrants issued - those are profitable for the municipalities as well.
A symbiotic relationship has been created between insurance corporations and municipalities, with us as the food supply.
"........money for the local municipalities collected on tickets. Also, money on warrants issued......"
Darn, you found out. Of course after you factor in the cost of the cop's pay and benefits, depreciation on the squad and gas at $3 a gallon, dispatchers and time for running the queries, a court clerk, jail space for the FTAs, all told you have next to nil, which goes into the county or cities' general fund, not to the LE except indirectly thru the annual budget. Yeah, its quite the scam we got goin' on.
Darn, you found out. Of course after you factor in the cost of the cop's pay and benefits, depreciation on the squad and gas at $3 a gallon, dispatchers and time for running the queries, a court clerk, jail space for the FTAs, all told you have next to nil, which goes into the county or cities' general fund, not to the LE except indirectly thru the annual budget. Yeah, its quite the scam we got goin' on.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Sendec-
Why must you in insist on refusal to provide anything but noise to this thread?
Why must you continue to invoke the "we" as though you're a full time working LEO? You're not. You're an "Assistant Professor" at a semi-accredited Junior College; not an Operator on the Thin Blue Line.
I will continue to call you on these statements, when you make them, as it borders on posing.
Let it go....please.
Rich
I hoped someone would ask that question, thank you!
A municipality's police and court system runs on a fixed cost. It is provided as a system paid for by taxes. The number of police, miles driven, etc are a constant. So it costs nothing additional to the municipality to have the police write tickets, yet brings in revenue. That revenue can then be spent on additional "services" without raising taxes for those "services".
If my town needs 100 police to maintain law and order, then it will have 100 police, and if there were no revenue generation devices that cost would be 100% borne by taxes. If those police can also pick up some extra bucks for the city along the way by writing up tickets, that's a bonus for my town's politicians to spend. If the politicians use some of that revenue to increase the size of the police force, then it is still a bonus because they did it without increasing taxes.
Lately they have been even more creative - putting cameras at traffic intersections to do robot ticketing - you receive a ticket untouched by human hands so to speak....
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stevelyn, butch50 was countering sendec disingenuous statements.
It's interesting that both sendec and TBO appear to not care how the law got there, but seem to think we, the little people can work to change it... Completely ignoring the big money that I hinted at and butch50 nailed. Let's also not forget that once government finds a means to generate more money, they will never willingly allow that revenue stream to dry up.
And throughout all of this, the insurance companies make more money.
It's interesting that both sendec and TBO appear to not care how the law got there, but seem to think we, the little people can work to change it... Completely ignoring the big money that I hinted at and butch50 nailed. Let's also not forget that once government finds a means to generate more money, they will never willingly allow that revenue stream to dry up.
And throughout all of this, the insurance companies make more money.