Sean Penn an American patriot

How about some history Forward Assit

Well is sure was not communism that raised up Japan and Germany after WW2.
Compare East and West Germany after the war-one under communism the other Capitalism which one had a better standard of living, which one had a faster rise in life expectency.

Same with North and South Korea.

Need any more examples of how a controlled economy by the state is worse than a free and vigorus market economy.
 
Way too obvious for some, TwoXForr.

I expect some genius will say that the success that Japan, Germany and South Korea have had is not because of the role that the US played there. That capitalism is not responsible for their economic success. Capitalism and democracy are not the same thing as some believe.

Whatever they say about "imperialistic" capitalism, it works. Look at China and Russia...communist in name but capitalist in substance. Why do you suppose the Chinese took a hands off approach to the system in place in Hong Kong when they took possession of it back in 1997?

Imagine if Commodore Perry didnt force the Japanese to open up their country to trade back in 1851...they would be a wholly owned by China by now.
 
True Creature True-

But at the same time thier place in the market today might be from the jump start given by the US at the end of the conflicts (the Korean War and WW2) but what gave America the ability to jump start those economies at the time. Freedom guarnteed by our Constitution and our free market economy.

Let us go to something a little more vague and unknown then. How about our the US telephone system (land line). Due to the free market which allowed companies to create thier own standards which then became common across the US (due to they simplist and easiest system winning out in the switching system), it developed into a uniform and easily managed system, which allowed small private rural companies to tie into Ma Bell.

Whereas in England (so it has been expalined to me by people that lived there in the sixties) if you travelled to different region then you had a complete different dialing system to make a long distance and even a local call. This was due to goverment regulation which tried to regulate the system, and almost regulated it to its death bed.

Free markets more effiecent, and more productive in the long run.
 
But at the same time thier place in the market today might be from the jump start given by the US at the end of the conflicts (the Korean War and WW2) but what gave America the ability to jump start those economies at the time.
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Except for China and Russia...

And Sean Penn is still a buffoon.
 
How many carriers and SSBNs does Israel have again?
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One would think that it's obvious Israel doesn't need a world class multi, or even single, ocean fleet.

Considering that the U.S. and British fleets haven't stopped a single instance of domestic terrorism, and have, in themselves, provided targets for terrorists in the past, I'm not quite sure of the point of the statement.:cool:

Sean Penn has enough money to enable him to make a much bigger difference than he can by setting up a self promoting photo ops, in which arrangements with the media were, IMO, set up well in advance.
 
How many carriers and SSBNs does Israel have again?

One would think that it's obvious Israel doesn't need a world class multi, or even single, ocean fleet.
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The observation that Israel lacks carriers and SSBNs was made to refute the allegation made by a previous poster that Israel was more capable defensivly than is the USA. I never said that Israel had any need for a Carrier.
 
you are not on Fox news, please try to have a coherent debate Winston

I have , and I can't find anything about that. Do you work for Fox news? Maybe you should do your own research.
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That style of "debate" may work on TV young man, it is hardly how reasonable people debate.

Your "debate" methods are chock full of fallacies, the quote is an
Appeal to Ridicule, it works well when one is debating in a schoolyard or on some cable news show, but among intelligent people, it simply shows that the user of fallacies is ignorant.

In order to understand what a fallacy is, one must understand what an argument is. Very briefly, an argument consists of one or more premises and one conclusion. A premise is a statement (a sentence that is either true or false) that is offered in support of the claim being made, which is the conclusion (which is also a sentence that is either true or false).

There are two main types of arguments: deductive and inductive. A deductive argument is an argument such that the premises provide (or appear to provide) complete support for the conclusion. An inductive argument is an argument such that the premises provide (or appear to provide) some degree of support (but less than complete support) for the conclusion. If the premises actually provide the required degree of support for the conclusion, then the argument is a good one. A good deductive argument is known as a valid argument and is such that if all its premises are true, then its conclusion must be true. If all the argument is valid and actually has all true premises, then it is known as a sound argument. If it is invalid or has one or more false premises, it will be unsound. A good inductive argument is known as a strong (or "cogent") inductive argument. It is such that if the premises are true, the conclusion is likely to be true.

A fallacy is, very generally, an error in reasoning. This differs from a factual error, which is simply being wrong about the facts. To be more specific, a fallacy is an "argument" in which the premises given for the conclusion do not provide the needed degree of support. A deductive fallacy is a deductive argument that is invalid (it is such that it could have all true premises and still have a false conclusion). An inductive fallacy is less formal than a deductive fallacy. They are simply "arguments" which appear to be inductive arguments, but the premises do not provided enough support for the conclusion. In such cases, even if the premises were true, the conclusion would not be more likely to be true.
 
The observation that Israel lacks carriers and SSBNs was made to refute the allegation made by a previous poster that Israel was more capable defensivly than is the USA. I never said that Israel had any need for a Carrier.
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The poster you were trying to refute was right.

Israel is far more capable of defending themselves against TERRORISTS than the U.S. And they better be, since they're attacked far more often. At home and abroad.

When it comes to sending troops around the world to combat an enemy, then of course, you're correct about the military superiority of the U.S.


While U.S. airports are checking old ladies (so as not to seem discrimminating) and making people take off their shoes, and worrying about baby bottle formulas-- highly skilled Isralis security personnel are interviewing passengers and running all luggage through decompression chambers.

Right now, it's the war against the terrorist at home that we must learn how to fight. Some day it will happen at the hands of our home grown. We could take a lesson from the Israelis.
 
The poster you were trying to refute was right.
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No he wasn't. He made it clear repeatedly that he was referring to conventional and nuclear war fighting capability, not anti-terror operations. You're merely adjusting his arguments slightly to put them in a better light.

Israel is far more capable of defending themselves against TERRORISTS than the U.S. And they better be, since they're attacked far more often. At home and abroad.
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Far more capable? No, Israel is plagued by constant terrorist attacks such as suicide bombers and most definitely has not done a good job stopping them.

Israel does not have the extensive intel capabilities of the US that includes satellite recon of any spot on the globe, and intercept and analysis of all EM transmissions globally.

How many NSA style-listening posts does Israel have globally? None.

Does Israel have the USA's capability to monitor worldwide financial transactions looking for terrorist funding activities? No.

Can Israel even launch its own spy satellite? No, they depend on India or the USAF for that

In terms of things like airline security via profiling and IED countermeasures, yes, Israel historically did a better job than the US.

As for IED countermeasures, I'd give the US the edge today. We are succeeding in Iraq where the Israelis failed in S. Lebanon against the same enemy using the same tactics.
 
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Well, here is something Israel is good at doing using their influence $$$ to strong arm congress into imposing harsh sanctions on Iran. These proposed sanctions include cutting off refined oil imports to Iran; an increased US fund freeze on Iran’s state-owned Bank Melli; and pushing for the Israeli sponsored Iran Counter Proliferation Act. This Bill would subject Russia to specified prohibition actions against Iran unless Moscow suspends its nuclear assistance and transfers of missiles to Iran. But rather than fostering Russian cooperation — the Bill will indeed strengthen Putin’s resolve to assist Iran. And evident to anyone with half a brain, US sanctions on Iran have had no effect whatsoever.

You see the problem with all this kowtowing to the Israel lobby and their incessant beating of the war drum against Iran is the Russia,China and Iran alliance.

On May 23, 2008, A Joint Statement On Iran Was Announced By Russia & China:

— “China and Russia propose that the Iranian nuclear issue be resolved through equal consultation. All parties should consider global security and refrain from military means.” —

If we attack Iran at the behest of the Israel lobby we are risking global war.

Its time we formed a consensus against Israel and their war plans and think of America and world peace first.

We have already spent an enormous sum of money and over 4,000 American lives defending Israel in Iraq. Lets not make an even bigger and costlier mistake by attacking Iran for them.
 
Truth

All I can say that is fact, is that gas was $1.47 a gallon the day Bush was elected! Today I paid $4.36 !! Hmmmmm. How many lives per gallon?
 
To whom is he speaking in this diatribe? A bar room full of his buddies by the sound of it. Does he mention growing something in underwear at one point!?

I answered the bugle call as many on these forums have and we all went to defend this misinformed actor's right to spout his version of 'the truth' and all the other freedoms we Americans hold dear. We are so free here in the land of plenty that you can all but shout "FIRE!" in a theater or movie house these days. Let him rant, let him rave. It is his right.

But a patriot? No, that's not a patriot. Twain once stated or wrote something to the effect that a patriot is the man that yells the loudest about that which he knows the least so in that sense, perhaps. But a patriot in my mind seeks a solution to a problem, not merely to spout vitriol over it. There is that fine quote so often misquoted, Carl Schurz addressing an Anti-Imperialist Conference in Chicago in 1899:

" 'My country, right or wrong.' In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."
 
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"'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'" -GK Chesterton
 
Chesterton was a gifted writer and orator, granted. Are you saying that you support Sean Penn? Are you saying I am incorrect or befuddled or naive on something? For truly, whether she be drunk or sober, dead or alive, we all have but one real mother and whatever she may be, she is mom.

Schurz is the entire quote, the re-quote of the original "My country, right or wrong" and the response. I will edit my post to more clearly reflect that.
 
another fallacy hector

All I can say that is fact, is that gas was $1.47 a gallon the day Bush was elected! Today I paid $4.36 !! Hmmmmm. How many lives per gallon?
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Last January it was cold in Wyoming, today in June, it is warm.
Dick Cheney is from Wyoming therefore Halliburton is causing global warming.
Bush knew!:rolleyes:


Description of Misleading Vividness

Misleading Vividness is a fallacy in which a very small number of particularly dramatic events are taken to outweigh a significant amount of statistical evidence. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Dramatic or vivid event X occurs (and is not in accord with the majority of the statistical evidence) .
2. Therefore events of type X are likely to occur.
 
"'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'" -GK Chesterton
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Very true. And it's also worth noting that far too many people confuse "my country" with "my government."

As far as I'm concerned, "my country" is defined solely by the principles America was founded upon. Hence, the modern US government is the number one enemy of my country, America. "Our" government tramples on both the letter and the spirit of our Constitution and Declaration of Independence at every turn. A patriot does his best to defend them.

I love my country very much. But I neither have nor owe any loyalty whatsoever to the government, and I do not worship the cloth idol known as the flag.

Moreover, the US infantry and police (i.e., the standing army our Founders warned about) are the only significant danger to Americans' freedom, and this is a stone cold fact. No one in Iraq, Iran, Russia, or any foreign nation can successfully invade our country, which has a huge nuclear deterrent and a high-tech air force and navy. Thus, no foreigner can impose any laws on us, and laws are what limit freedom. The worst any foreign power could ever do is take American lives, and only a nation like Russia or China could do so in any significant numbers (e.g., with a ballistic missile). They cannot take our freedom. Only the US government can do that, and it is doing that.

Yesterday it was "our troops" (i.e., the National Guard) helping police to confiscate guns in New Orleans after Katrina. One day it will be something more widespread.
 
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