Scenario, you are sleeping at night!

That is everyone’s nightmare!!

Things may have changed since I retired but “no-knock” warrants were issued for daylight hours only, and not to be served in the dead of night. We served warrants at night when required, but we did announce ourselves and demand entrance to the residence. There are several reasons for this, one to protect everyone involved, and to avoid the perception of Nazi Germany night time raids.
Today most, if not all, police agencies have well trained and armed “high risk” arrest teams. So for those of you who have guard dogs, and lots of assorted weapons you may take down one or two of the cops, but you will lose in the end, just through the sear volume of numbers. Think about this, do you really want to expose your family to a pitch gun battle in the middle of the night?
Now to try and answer the original question, if this were to happen to me, I want to believe that I would have the presence of mind to state in a very clear and loud voice that I had a weapon that I would use if forced to and that I was calling 911 as we spoke and for everyone to stand down and none of us would do anything stupid.
 
i agree with the calling of 911, and locking an loadin the riot shotty. I do have a shotty loaded, open, with a shell ready to rack, and a .45 USP in my dresser. And yes, if u have a dog....the police, or anyone really set on coming into ur house is gonna shoot them dead. However, if the dog barks, i hope ur wearing a vest, cause u might get me, but between me and my wife....ur chances are slim also.

be safe out there, and have fun
 
SOME of the raids I've seen on reality cop shows make the cops look unprofessional. Swat teams shouldn't scream obcenities and should wear more than black clothing with Police written on it to identify them.

If someone tries to come in my house without my permission, I will arm myself and call the police. If whoever is coming in doesn't stop when I tell them to, things would come to a head.

It is important to have doors that can't be instantly breached.
 
I suspect otherwise. I would think this would bring them to their point faster and make you more likely to get shot.
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Seriously?
I mean, really?

You think officers train for hours a day, to just rush a closed door with an armed person behind it, when said person has informed them they are armed?
I can assure you that is not the way things are done by the police.

What if said person has a hostage?
What if the door is trapped?
What if the person throws open the door and starts unloading with a fully automatic weapon?

Don't think it will happen? Ask the officers who participated in the North Hollywood robbery if they thought they would face fully automatic fire that morning when they woke up.

The police are not your friends, never trust them, but don't under estimate them.
 
Warrants ?? Nobody has mentioned the Patriot Act .Under that no one needs a warrant !

The scenario is a dangerous one for the home owner .The best you can do is call 911 but you may not have time for that. Shooting it out with a dozen highly armed and armoured cops is a bad scene.
 
This is a good one. How do you know if they are legit or not until it's all said and done? Hopefully, a person would have the good sense not to jump up guns' a blazin against what may be the police, but...what if they're not? Kylen states it's best to comply. That's what thugs planning a home invasion posed as cops would count on and I believe that's the point of the thread. I don't think this as paranoid or should be taken down at all. Shooting Chief had the best response. If they're legit, the 911 operator will tell you and maybe the officers will slide the warrant under your bedroom door for you to read. If not the 911will dispatch real cops and the BGs will back off when they hear you announce you're armed.
 
If you are awake and in the position to do anything, then calling 911 if its available, is really the only way to confirm and possibly fend off shooting the wrong people (assuming they are not yet already in). If they are cops and 911 doenst know they are there for some reason, of well, Doom on them, and probably you.

If they toss in a flash bang, and youre in the same room, its probably best at that point to drop your gun and get down. I think that would probably suffice as conformation its not the bad guys, unless of course, the cops are the bad guys (hey, its all about perspective:) ).

Me, Ill just yell out real loud (while making the coffee), if the door is opened without my say so, you'll trip the Claymores mounted in the overhead directly behind you. Then comes the hot oil, and then the dogs eat. They LOVE deep fried nuggets. :D
 
You think officers train for hours a day, to just rush a closed door with an armed person behind it, when said person has informed them they are armed?
I can assure you that is not the way things are done by the police.
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I apreaciate your reassurance but where do you get your information from? Are you a trained law enforcement officer? If so then your statement MIGHT hold water but from what I've seen, Its does NOT.

I think it is more reasonable to assume that if indeed it is the police at your door and they are to the point of breeching the door, and you inform them you are armed, that will most definately escalate the situation, not diffuse it and to think otherwise would, IMO, be nothing short of naive.

If we go by the OP's original scenerio, which this thread is about, then the person in the house suprising the police with automatic weapons does not fit in this scenerio. We were to assume that the occupant of said house is a law abiding citizen who has done nothing wrong. Posessing a fully automatic weapon, for the largest part of the population, would be illegal. For the small percentage of the public that are allowed to have them, the police would be well aware of that fact and I'm sure prepared to deal with it. We should probably keep our responces limited to plausable scenerios.
 
Well said. I dont think the outcome is going to be good in any instance but any outcome that leaves you breathing is better than the alternative.
 
where do you get your information from? Are you a trained law enforcement officer?
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Negative sir, I am not. I did, however, live with one for 11 years and still talk to him on a regular basis when I have legal/LE questions, and he retired as the head of the warrants division for the sheriffs dept, and still a state constable. Also I don't think he would lie to his son. So I do have a good bit of insight and knowledge that I've gained by annoyingly asking him lots of questions while I try to learn things.
I think it is more reasonable to assume that if indeed it is the police at your door and they are to the point of breeching the door, and you inform them you are armed, that will most definately escalate the situation, not diffuse it and to think otherwise would, IMO, be nothing short of naive.
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Yet we still have crisis negotiators that talk to, and deal with, armed persons every day, AFTER the police have gone inside.
then the person in the house suprising the police with automatic weapons does not fit in this scenerio.
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I don't know about your house, but my front nor my back door open into my bedroom. I have more than enough time to grab whatever weapon is at hand (in my case, a shotgun).
Posessing a fully automatic weapon, for the largest part of the population, would be illegal.
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Do you live in Europe? Maybe California? 37 states say it's legal to own fully automatic weapons, last I checked, 37 was a majority out of 50. I would think that would be enough votes to win an election, even if you didn't get California.
the police would be well aware of that fact and I'm sure prepared to deal with it.
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How? Unlike in CSI/NCIS/Insert another acronym here, there is no computer down at the police station that someone can jump on and pull up a detailed map and list of every gun owner in the city (ok maybe in New York City) and what they have in their safe, what type of ammo they buy, what magazines they load them with, and what they had for breakfast that morning. There's no "bat phone" to the ATF that the police pickup when serving a warrant and learn everything they need to know about the person inside.
We should probably keep our responces limited to plausable scenerios.
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So you're saying, despite the fact that I could start the ordering process of a fully automatic weapon this very minute, if I had the money, and if I had said weapon the fact that it was automatic would make it my go-to weapon every single time for any sort of home invasion, that that is not plausible?
I disagree sir.
 
@ shootin chef.

I respect your opinion and everyone has a right to one. However, your statements still dont hold water and I think your either misled or missing the point.

Do you live in Europe? Maybe California? 37 states say it's legal to own fully automatic weapons, last I checked, 37 was a majority out of 50. I would think that would be enough votes to win an election, even if you didn't get California.
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No sir, as it CLEARLY states in my profile, I reside in northern Arkansas. And while it is in fact legal to own fully automatic weapons, it is well known that a VERY small percentage of the population does in fact posess them which is what I have stated prior. I'm not sure how votes or an election fit into this scenerio and have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

How? Unlike in CSI/NCIS/Insert another acronym here, there is no computer down at the police station that someone can jump on and pull up a detailed map and list of every gun owner in the city (ok maybe in New York City) and what they have in their safe, what type of ammo they buy, what magazines they load them with, and what they had for breakfast that morning. There's no "bat phone" to the ATF that the police pickup when serving a warrant and learn everything they need to know about the person inside.
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Using TV shows and refrences to the 'bat phone' dosn't really add credibility to your statements. And I'm sure all that paperwork that you fill out to be able to legally aquire fully automatic weapons just gets filed away somewhere, never to be looked at again :rolleyes:. To think that law enforcement would be unaware of the fact that you are legally in posession of fully automatic weapons is misleading. In Arkansas, you would have to have the Sheriff sign off on this matter after you pay the necessary fee's to aquire said firearm. I find it hard to believe the Sheriff would keep this information to himself. Again, your statements seem naive at best.

So you're saying, despite the fact that I could start the ordering process of a fully automatic weapon this very minute, if I had the money, and if I had said weapon the fact that it was automatic would make it my go-to weapon every single time for any sort of home invasion, that that is not plausible?
I disagree sir.
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Not at all. You posessing a fully automatic weapon would be completely plausible and would make you fall into the catagory of the very small percentage of citizens that do as I stated before.

Im glad that you disagree, otherwise, this would be a boring discussion.
 
I'm just saying this out of genuine concern. If cops bust your front door yelling search warrant, then do not touch any type of gun.
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This is all well and good, as long as its the cops. And you know for sure its the cops how? ;)

I dont think the outcome is going to be good in any instance but any outcome that leaves you breathing is better than the alternative.
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Youre right, the outcome either way probably wont be good, but Id prefer to be the one breathing "and" standing when its done.

If they were who they said they were, and had the wrong house, thats not my fault, and Im sure I can find all sorts of lawyers to help sort it out, and without a penny out of pocket outright too.

Somebody has to be held accountable (theyll be trying to hold you accountable for their screw up if you prevail!) and the immunity BS has to go away in cases like this. If not, then I dont think Id want to be a cop trying to execute a warrant down the road if theres not going to be some accounting and relief. Some people arent impressed by uniforms and authority, even if they seem to put up with it now.

And while it is in fact legal to own fully automatic weapons, it is well known that a VERY small percentage of the population does in fact posess them
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That may depend on where you live and who your friends and neighbors are. There are quite a few floating about around here, including our house.

Now if I knew for a fact that it wasnt the cops, they might get selected, but since ours are only pistol caliber, you know, with vests and all, probably not the best choice. Rifles, or rifle caliber select fire are the better choice in that case. Id have to call the neighbor up the road in that case, but he could clear the side of the house with sustained enfilading fire with his old MG08, but if he hits my truck, there'll be hell to pay! :)

Gasoline is pretty impressive too, and actually better than a gun pretty much anytime if used correctly, but then you'll have the power crazy fire police charging in after the fact, and we all know how they can get. Give a little old man or some 450 pound girl some power....:rolleyes:


Now really, all fun aside, get yourself a couple of dogs, or an alarm system, or both, and have a phone that works, even if the wires are cut (sucks here, no cell service), and dont sleep heavy. Also be prepared to fight it out if need be.

If you live someplace like we do, better to deal with the cops, since they would at least already be there (its not like they can sneak up or anything), then to have to call and wait, since it'll be about 20-30 minutes if they arent in this end of the county. Preferably, you know they are there before they breach the door, and can get a hold of 911 or yell out the window to them and get it straitened out ahead of time.

If not, do what you think best . I got the 08 on speed dial on the hand crank. :)
 
as it CLEARLY states in my profile, I reside in northern Arkansas.
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And those were "CLEARLY" rhetorical questions and humorous hyperbole, brought about by you mistakenly saying that the majority of the population lives under the thumb of an oppressive system (which is true, but for another thread) that makes owning a fully automatic firearm illegal. Since you "CLEARLY" were wrong, as I pointed out, you attempt to cover said error by direction attention to something completely different, i.e. the very small percentage point, which is not something I was addressing. No worries, we all make mistakes.

And I'm sure all that paperwork that you fill out to be able to legally aquire fully automatic weapons just gets filed away somewhere, never to be looked at again
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Actually, that's pretty much true. SLED (that's the South
Carolina Law Enforcement Division, don't ask me what happened to the C) has an entire building dedicated to its records, and a little over a dozen employees in said building, so how often do you think those files get looked at?
I'm not saying they couldn't pull the file if it was needed, but it would take a whole lot of time and warrants like the ones addressed do have expiration dates. To say it would never be looked at again would be silly, someone, someday, may glance at it and therefore give you the semantic argument that the file was looked at... but don't take my word for it, go down to your sheriffs dept and ask a deputy in the records department where those papers are kept and how long would it take to access them. You may be surprised at the time frame.
 
We had a case in Detroit not that long ago, a home-invasion gang dressed like cops (all black "POLICE" shirts with bullet proof vests) were invading, beating, raping and robbing people. Detroit PD and the FBI set up a special task force. In the meatime, one house the bad guys hit was prepared, when they came thru the front door the homeowner gave them the AK 47 treatment. One of the bad guys caught 5 rounds, went down, but survived. The other bad guys fled the scene, no doubt due to serious homeowner firepower. Later on, after a shootout with police the gang was finally busted, IIRC there were 29 gang members rounded up.

You guys are getting me nervous, guess I'll have to get the MAS 49/56 prepared again.
 
you mistakenly saying that the majority of the population lives under the thumb of an oppressive system
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This statement or insinuation was never made by me. Maybe you misunderstood my statement but that surely does not make me wrong. I'm sure if you check the facts, you will find the percentage of the populaton as a whole that is in posession of fully automatic firearms, will be quite small. So do tell sir, how exactly does this make me wrong? Your arguement sitll holds no ground and has nothing to do with this discussion. If you dont like my opinion fine, but that wont change my opinion nor will twisting my words to suit your arguement. I also see no point to continue an arguement that has no bearing on the OP's original question. To each their own. Good luck to you and yours.
 
Hijack Alert

The question isn't whether cops should or should not execute no-knock warrants. The question was, what do you do if you are awakened in the middle of the night by the sound of "police we have a warrant" and the simultaneous breaching of your front door.

The answer to some is - 1. submit.
The answer to others is - 2. barricade.
The answer to a small minority is - 3. shoot them all down like dogs.

In my opinion, 1 and 3 are both 100% wrong first reactions.

Once you verify they're cops - 1 is the only answer. Even if they're at the wrong house or totally violating your rights. Many trained armed cops keyed up on caffeine and adrenalin are not going to get a gunfight from me.
Once you identify them as BG - 2 or 3 might be right depending on many things, but 1 is totally wrong. But volunteering to take on multiple BG is for Arnie or Bruce, not me. Not unless its a last resort to save my family or myself, and even so its mostly wishful thinking and probable death. oh well.

I'm saying - harden your bedroom or bolt-hole so that you can buy yourself precious minutes to understand the situation. You grab your kids when the dogs wake you, and take them into the bolt hole too. Panic room, whatever you call it. I call it my bedroom. You peek out the windows, you call the 911 dispatch, you arm yourself, then you make your choice after you know something.

This strategy works for all intrusions into your home, not just a mass entrance by unknown police or masquerading assailants.
 
Asked the question to a SWAT commander today...

I had the chance to talk with a SWAT commander today for an extended period and thought about this thread. I asked him about 'what would you do at 0-dark-30'.... He indicated there were several issues, but no single answer:

First, at least in Arizona and some other states, warrants, with a few exceptions have to be served between 630 AM and 1030 PM, so if your <lucky enough> to live in AZ, the middle of the night scenario is not that likely. Federal has a slightly different window.

Second, he indicated that there were groups that were breaking into homes, *usually* for ripping off drug dealers, often dressed as police. He noted that most of the invaders they heard of were scant on real police gear: Most had a "POLICE" shirt, but few had real $$$ Kevlar helmets, much less a $5K LMR radio and certain other gear. Often the gear the fake cops had was all dissimilar. In addition, when the real SWAT guys go in, they follow Sun Tzu's philosophy of overwhelming your enemy by sheer numbers. He indicated they often have 'dozens' of officers at a target location. In one instance I'm aware of, it was about 40 officers.

He also mentioned that now on "No Knock" warrants, they now quickly knock and announce because drug dealers find the police "an annoyance" versus drug robbers who will likely kill them, and more likely to return fire or activate various defenses. They've had dealers with good to excellent external security and intel, start firing at them as they approached the door because they were expecting it was a drug ripoff.

Finally he noted that if someone was armed and barricaded during their entry, most <sane> police forces will reasonably provide proof that they are the real cops. Could be slipping a couple of badges under the door, tell the officer you're going to call 911 and want them to verify XYZ information about the event or an officer specific data point, etc.
 
Now to try and answer the original question, if this were to happen to me, I want to believe that I would have the presence of mind to state in a very clear and loud voice that I had a weapon that I would use if forced to and that I was calling 911 as we spoke and for everyone to stand down and none of us would do anything stupid.
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And there it is in a nutshell. I would expect the vast majority of cops would have no problem with waiting on a 911 call from somebody that wanted proof that they were legit. After all, it's not completely unheard of for them not to be. They would then expect the guy to surrender immediately after proof was provided. (YES THE POLICE ARE AT YOUR RESIDENCE) I certainly wouldn't have a problem surrendering to them then. Let the lawyers sort it out. But, jump the gun and bust your way into where I am holing up instead of waiting, and expect a face-full of 5.56 NATO. Call it Detroit paranoia all you want, I may go down, but I'm taking some with me. No way you can convince me any real cop wants that.
 
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