SBR a dying concept?

What DMK said is also true in Ohio. A SBR is a "dangerous ordnance" per the O.R.C. and cannot be carried concealed. However a AR/AK/MP5/whatever pistol is a pistol, and can be concealed legally, provided you have a concealed handgun license.
 
Here's the latest reason to further this argument haha I just got the new SB Tactical SBA3 adjustable pistol brace. Works just like a collapsible stock, except it doesn't go quite as far out as a normal stock.
 

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I like the newer options of the pistol braces. While I haven't SBR'd anything just yet, the braces really wet my appetite for an SBR. Additionally, I want to SBR my UZI for a more historically accurate (even with the wood stock) look, which just can't be done with the pistol brace. As many said, the pistol braces are simply easier to travel with and I travel across a state line for a range I frequent, so there is that.

SBR won't disappear (even if I would love to see that NFA process dropped), but the newer pistol brace rage may very well help speed up the processing time for an SBR!:D

ROCK6
 
(Addressing 2018+ replies)
Run what you want, but the ATF still has a fickle mind.
I stopped masturba... Err... um... playing with "pistol braces" about four years ago. Dumb idea. Too much mystery and risk.

I, personally, have an SBR now. I don't have to play with stupid, overpriced 'braces' on "pistol" lowers.
I can run a full-blown, completely legit "rifle" lower, with all of its benefits, and not have to wonder what the ATF's opinion will be next week with my 10.5" .300 Blk upper, or the 14.5" .475 Tremor upper, or the 3.25" 5.56 upper.

I run what I want. I don't have to worry about changing opinion. ...Or short LOPs that make shooting a pretend SBR a pain in the butt (or nostril).



It took less than three months for my SBR stamp to come back. It ain't an 8+ month wait any more.
If you had filed back when you started this thread, you could have enjoyed completely legal SBR fun for QUITE some time, now. ...And probably saved money on the novelty 'braces'.
Stop being dumb. Get real. Get legal. File the Form 1.
 
I am not dumb, fake or illegal. And I did not submit to the demands of a govt. agency to surrender a bunch of personal information. "Novelty braces"...are they sold near the whoopie cushions?
 
Indeed, they are - in the 'overpriced junk' section of the toy department.


The government already has your information.
Google has even more.
Paranoia is a symptom of many diseases. You may want to see a doctor.
 
I do not know you Frank, but you seem to be awful bent about one of the few rulings of late(Opinions) that went in the American gun owners favor.
If they are not your thing that is cool. The fewer out there the less attention they may attract.
I suffer from no paranoid episodes. And I am far too polite to suggest what medical advice you may or may not need.
 
It's an opinion.
You don't have to like it. You don't even have to read it.

But I do appreciate that you did take the time to read it.

Our opinions differ.
But we can still lead happy lives, even if we choose different paths.
 
It took less than three months for my SBR stamp to come back. It ain't an 8+ month wait any more.

I don't know if you can say your 3 month wait is now typical. A friend of mine went the SBR route for his M1 Tommygun (semi auto) a couple years ago, and his wait was 10 months, almost to the day. Full auto is out, due to state laws, but he wanted his semi to look right.

He is now selling it, due to medical reasons, and last time I checked, he is up to 8 months waiting for ATF approval to SELL it (he has a buyer waiting).


I had a good time when the ATF decided that I could legally put the shoulder stock on my C96 Mauser. Until a little later when the ATF changed its mind, again, and only allowed ORIGINAL stocks, to be legal, no reproductions. Enjoy your "approved" pistol braces, while you can. The ATF can change their approval to disapproval at any time, and they have a history of doing so.
 
I don't know if you can say your 3 month wait is now typical. A friend of mine went the SBR route for his M1 Tommygun (semi auto) a couple years ago, and his wait was 10 months, almost to the day. Full auto is out, due to state laws, but he wanted his semi to look right.

He is now selling it, due to medical reasons, and last time I checked, he is up to 8 months waiting for ATF approval to SELL it (he has a buyer waiting).
It seems to be a regional thing.
The states around me are down to historically "short" wait times on Form 1s.
The long wait to sell it... Yea, that fits right in with current wait times for Form 4s.

If your friend was in a hurry to sell it, the better option would have been to return it to regular 'rifle' (Title 1) configuration and sell it that way. Then the new owner could file their own Form 1 to re-SBR. The money works out the same, and the buyer has to wait either way. But the actual transfer of the firearm can take place very quickly.
 
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I had a good time when the ATF decided that I could legally put the shoulder stock on my C96 Mauser. Until a little later when the ATF changed its mind, again, and only allowed ORIGINAL stocks, to be legal, no reproductions. Enjoy your "approved" pistol braces, while you can. The ATF can change their approval to disapproval at any time, and they have a history of doing so.
This.
This.
This.

ATF Determination Letters are merely the current opinion of ATF's Technical Branch and represent their OPINION at this time. It isn't law, it isn't permission, it doesn't mean it's legal and valid forever.
 
FrankenMauser said:
I stopped masturba... Err... um... playing with "pistol braces" about four years ago. Dumb idea. Too much mystery and risk.

Well, I agree the ATF is fickle, but pistol braces offer a pseudo-SBR for now and for those that move often (military), cross state lines often due to location, job, or family, and some locals are simply not very NFA-friendly.

I'm still "playing" with them:D If anything, they are quite persuasive to jump on the NFA wagon now that I'm retired from the .mil.

If anything the proliferation of braces (and suppressors) should start pushing the irrelevance of the NFA regarding short barrels and sound suppressors, but that's just my wishful thinking.

My first SBR will be to make my UZI more of an original (with the wood stock as well!).

ROCK6
 
Something else that I have not seen brought up here, but is very important to the discussion:

INTENT.

The ATF has established, multiple times over, that intent to use something in a particular manner is enough to create an illegal NFA item. ('Constructive possession' is based largely upon this premise, as well. -Even though the intent might be a fictional construct of the ATF/FBI/etc.)

If you build a "pistol" and add an 'arm brace' with the intent to shoulder the 'arm brace' and use the pistol as an SBR, you are committing a felony act.
Just because, "the ATF isn't going after the YouTube guys," doesn't mean YOU (and they) aren't committing an illegal act by building a "pistol" with an 'arm brace' with the intent to build a 'sleeper SBR' and subvert the NFA.

A case, which I recently dug up for another discussion, that was later used as a precedent for others: United States vs Webb (1995)
(The above link is to a 1996 appeal.)

Webb was convicted of possession of unregistered firearms and firearms not identified by a serial number, based almost entirely on his intent to break the law by constructing a 'silencer' - not the actual material construction or viability of the devices.
Why is intent so important here? Because the devices in question were made of materials that the ATF admitted would not have been effective or survived actual use.
An except from the case files:
(...) the defendant made two suppressors from “[o]ld toilet paper tubes and stuffing from some old stuffed animals.”
Webb's sentence was reduced, specifically because of the materials used. But he was convicted.

Note that the case also involved a, "Raven Arms .25 caliber semiautomatic pistol that had no serial number," but he was never even charged for that one. The ATF and Kansas Bureau of Investigation stood on the charges relating to the intent to use cardboard tube 'silencers' and got the conviction there.
 
The homemade silencers in the Webb case were not just "“old toilet paper tubes and stuffing from some old stuffed animals.” as footnoted.

They also included wire mesh.

(your link is to the appeal by Webb, not the original case)
 
There seems to be two clear cut camps on this SBR/Brace issue .
On the one hand we have the " pistol " owners pretty much going nanana I didn't have to pay to have what you have . All i have to do is ignore half the opinion letter as to what is legal or not to do with braces .

On the other hand we have the SBR owners staunchly maintaining that the pistol is nothing like what they have and besides... Just wait till daddy BATFE gets home and tells you not to do that again . You'll really be in TROUBLE then because you didn't pony up a couple hundred bucks and forever file paperwork to take your toy out of state ... Like ME .
Guys .. no matter which camp you fall into remember we are all gun owners and we should just be happy that both SBRs and braced pistols are still legal for us to own . If little Jimmy down the street isn't running your flavor of boomstick I respectfully suggest that you find it in your heart to be content... nay happy that he has one and likely votes .

For the Record though I dont care if you carry your SBR loaded in a car or forget and put the short upper on it while out of state without a form.20 Nor do i give a hoot if your always shoot your brace from the shoulder . The entire set of " issues " is nothing more than nannyisim once someone understands the requirements to be and stay legal .
 
Spot On^^ I cheer of every win responsible gun owners get these days which are few. With any luck we will get more "common sense" rulings in the future. A nice start would be to rekindle the HPA that had decent momentum.
We all know any of the standing regulation is fragile. I guess all we can do is vote, and voice our opinions to the right audience.
 
There is no "win". It's a dead-end. The ATF just hasn't stopped traffic yet.

The entire set of " issues " is nothing more than nannyisim once someone understands the requirements to be and stay legal .
There is nothing legal about using an 'arm brace' as a shoulder stock, in order to intentionally subvert the NFA by not registering the firearm as the intended end goal: an SBR.
Advocating for and trumpeting the illegal use of "arm braces" on pistols is the same as advocating for obliteration of serial numbers, and illegally hacking shotgun barrels to illegal lengths.

Some of you guys are so deep into the "grey area" that you don't realize you've crossed over into talking about intentionally committing felonies.


(your link is to the appeal by Webb, not the original case)
I am well aware. I pointed that out in my post, because my link to the original case had gone dead.
 
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