Russian school siege: 200+ hostages

Oh, so last week I'm a patriot, and this week I'm the Naval officer who likes terrorism? Give me a break, Fred.


You're one of those people who thinks that anyone that doesn't have exactly the same old, tired opinions you have is a Communist, traitor or retard. What I post is largely reactive to some of the nonsense people like you and gburner pour out like fact. You two don't have any better eyes and ears than the rest of us, but you talk like you play golf with Colin Powell.

And the two of you are really the only people that get offended by my political posts, if that tells you anything. Your predictable rants are just rhetoric, and I don't know who you think you're 'illuminating'.
 
From what I can glean about these terrorists, its really the devils choice in dealing with them.
You can wait it out for a time and allow them time to murder their hostages.
Or you can rush in there and take the chance that you are absolutely not dealing with anyone you can talk to, and still a bunch of people die.

If there is any consolation in that kind of scenario, it may be found in trying to wait them out while getting the proper amount of force on site.

If a Columbine happened again soon, how are the people going to react? Are they going to assume a couple of homicidal kids or Islamic terrorists? Are we going to have forces rush in and try for a snatch and grab or are we going to attempt a dialogue, if nothing else, to find out what exactly their situation is?

For my money, I would sure want SOMEONE to be talking to the bad guys before I had to charge the door. Who knows-maybe they will give you some small bit of information which could prove valueable and save lives.

Which is the object of the mission.
 
Handy,

I'm not offended by your views, nor do I expect that you or anyone else accept mine. I am a little dismayed that a serving officer in the USN can have a distorted, myopic and pacifist world view as you. Are you in supply?

BTW...I don't play golf and Colin Powell ain't all that.
 
Well; Putin's adviser says they weren't "Chechen" - and in a manner not so cryptic mentions outside interests again. Wonder who's trying to throw a big wrench in Russian domestic affairs?

SCHOOL TERRORISTS GOT ORDERS FROM ABROAD: PUTIN'S ADVISER

MOSCOW, September 6 (RIA Novosti) - Terrorists who seized a school in North Ossetia's Beslan, September 1, were receiving orders from abroad throughout the three suspense-laden days, says Aslanbek Aslakhanov, President Vladimir Putin's adviser for North Caucasian affairs.

"The men had their conversations not within Russia but with other countries. They were led on a leash. Our self-styled friends have been working for several decades, I deem, to dismember Russia. They are doing a huge, really titanic job. It's clear as daylight that those people are coming up as puppeteers and are financing terror," he said to the Rossia television company, national Channel Two, tonight.

Though the bandits named certain people they wanted to see as negotiators, and Mr. Aslakhanov was among them, he is sure the terrorist gang really did not mean whatever contacts.

Aslanbek Aslakhanov, a Chechen, was on the site throughout the tragedy, and contacted the gang on the telephone. "The men were certainly not Chechens. When I spoke Chechen with them, they said they couldn't make out a word. 'Speak Russian,' they told me. Well, I did as they wished, though I speak Russian with a Caucasian accent," he said in his TV interview.

http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=4814496&startrow=1&date=2004-09-06
 
Further to the discussion over the way the seige was handled; after reading more than a few articles from the Russian press, and our own such as Fox, and other foreign papers, it is apparent that the Russians were in the process of setting up and preparing to negotiate with the "hostage takers".

When the explosions and shooting started, the "assault" by Russian troopers was quite spontaneous and began on impulse as the troopers rushed into the melee to try and save as many of the fleeing children and others as they could. It was at this point that the locals with firearms took it upon themselves to join in, some providing covering fire for the troopers - many of whom were wounded or died trying to shield the bodies of children they were bringing out. Reading the reports that reflect this sudden and unexpected initiation of the murder of those in the school, and the unprepared assault by the troopers under these conditions, I do not think the actions of the locals can be faulted.

As far as Russian competence is concerned; although not always brilliantly successful, it certainly is not that they are not capable of planning and executing such things. A good example is the assault on the hospital in Budyonnovsk in 1995 where most of 2,000 hostages were rescued.
 
Pacifist! What are you reading, gburner???

Since when is the suggestion that you only kill the CORRECT people a pacifist view??????? "Emotionally touched" is NOT synonymous with "we need to find someone to kill, right away." I think the school hostage thing was totally deplorable. But it would be equally deplorable if it was used as a political excuse to kill people who had nothing to do with it.


I want peace and security for my country, AND as much of the rest of planet as possible. You don't get there by declaring war on entire ethnic groups or pissing off every single ally you have.


I’m a helicopter pilot, not supply (as if it matters), and have spent a total of nine months in the Persian Gulf alone, and lived and worked around a lot of different Muslims. I did not “fall in love with their culture”, but I did see them for what they are – pretty regular people. Just like the majority of Americans, they have a host of opinions based on very few facts and listen to their media too much, while thinking too little.


If you want to tote around the party line and that makes you feel “informed”, go right ahead. But the actual intricacies of what creates foreign policy has not been made available to you, and is more complicated than what you’re fed on AM Talk Radio.


What I’ve been saying, that seems to really bother you, is that foreign policy, national security and crisis management decisions are best made without heated emotion, mob rule or bloodlust. You seem to be in favor of making decisions of great consequence with what’s between you legs, rather than a brain. The end of WWI was handled in such a manner, and it gave us WWII. We did things much differently after that, and created two great countries: Germany and Japan. But if rebuilding Japan was up for a vote today, you’d be against it because you’re not equipped to fit that into your two concept, black/white, good/bad worldview.

This binary reading of everything is why you’re judgment is so clouded that you end up calling a member of the armed services a pacifist. Feel free to quote my “pacifist” statements.
 
I would submit that advocating that parents remain calm, emotionally detatched, off site and out of the way of the police/military while their children are held in the hundreds by terrorists is a pacifist position.

I would submit that advocating giving creedence to every shade of gray on the moral spectrum is a pacifist position.

Embracing moral relativism is a pacifist position.

Refusing to see black and white/good vs evil situations in the stark light of their contrast is a pacifist position.

Any point of view that causes one to take a passive role rather than an active one is a pacifist position.

FWIW...I don't listen to AM talk radio. I don't tote a party line. I do know that you have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

I find it revealing that you demonstrate more outrage at my silly posts than you do over the murder of over 300 innocent children. I'm not the enemy, but I seem to have a clearer view as to their identity than you do.
I haven't advocated wholesale slaughter, indescriminate killing or random violence based on headgear, skin pigmentation or religious affliction. I never mentioned anythig about 'bloodlust' needing to be sated. What I have advocated is the right for parents to be actively involved in their children's safety, that they have the right to expect swift justice to be meeted out to those responsible and that those who could not understand this were probably operating outside of the DSM definition of sanity.
'Swift is rarely accurate and therefore unjust'. Would you rather they wait half a century as the Jews had to with the Holocaust. Who knows, by 2050 folks will be denying that this atrocity ever happened.
 
Oh, so last week I'm a patriot, and this week I'm the Naval officer who likes terrorism? Give me a break, Fred.
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I never said you like terrorism. Stop putting words in other people's mouths. What I said is that I have read nothing posted by you that would lead me to believe that you don't favor seeking peace with terrorists. You post things like this:
I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest that next time there's a hostage situation nearby, with full SWAT coverage, that we all mosey down to see if we can help shoot some people. That's dumb. It endangers the police officers who are trained to do this right and are already risking their lives, and it creates an even more uncontrollable situation where the police can't even guarantee the safety of the bad guys, should they wish to give themselves up (as these things usually end)[Emphasis added], putting the hostages in even greater danger.
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And before you say that you mean hostage situations in general, STOP! We aren't talking about hostage situations in general. We are talking about Islamic fanatic terrorists taking hostages. Terrorists whose modus operandi is to take hostages, terrrorize them, and if not stopped dead in their tracks, KILL AS MANY HOSTAGES AS THEY CAN! Even if it means their own senseless death.

My position has been/will be/must remain, that no peaceful negotiation with them is possible. None.

This particular case is only one of the flood of recent examples of why we cannot afford negotiation with these animals. The pathetic attempts of the Russians to find a peaceful - as you put it - resolution to this outrage, merely gave the death-cult psychotics the additional time they needed to MAXIMIZE the death and destruction that was their PRIMARY mission.

These are people who find senseless death to be a sacrament; an instant ticket to paradise. Some see it, some don't. The thing is that the efficacy of their murderous lust is NOT contingent upon their victim's willingness to see the insanity of their ideology/theology. The parents of those children understood that, and chose to do something rather than nothing. I can't fault them for that.

You seem to believe - or perhaps you will revert to saying that you have "heard" of others who believe - that a peaceful resolution is in the offing with people for whom a human life (even their own human life) means nothing. Good luck to you.
 
Interesting how Comrade Tony Blair and George W Bush are "co-operating" in the "war on terror" - seeking out "terrorists" and bringing to justice "those who harbor terrorists".

Apparently Russia has had warrants on these two a long time ago; Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov's spokesman Akhmed Zakayev who very conveniently received asylum in Comrade Blair's United Kingdom and is now a "political figure". Reminds one of the "International Muslim Brotherhood", how they freely operate out of London.

Then there is Ilyas Akhmadov who has been given asylum here in the United States....

"It is strange that a country that has suffered from terror and is waging an armed struggle against in jointly with Russia has granted political asylum to Ilyas Akhmadov, who is on the international wanted list .... " - Mikhail Margelov, Federation Council (international relations committee) 08/06/04

Indeed - very strange. Must be some new "technique"; everyone gives asylum to other countries' wanted suspects - and that way "they can't do any harm anywhere". ;)
 
Some of the most radical Muslims are in the US after being given asylum by our Government. They were given asylum because they are wanted in their home countries and/or face religious persecution.

Sounds stupid now, but apparently is true.
 
Or you can rush in there and take the chance that you are absolutely not dealing with anyone you can talk to, and still a bunch of people die.
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If you are dealing with Islamofascist terrorists, entertaining the possibility that they are open to negotiation is incredibly stupid.
 
Well, I guess it could have been a group of Girl Scouts out on a lark that just happened to have slaughtered the first couple of dozen people they encountered when they took the school. Or (as I have learned here at TFL) it could have been a band of pixie-faced "RiverDancers" who have decided to advance the cause of the Irish Republican Army by assimilating themselves into a death-worshipping cult.

But to be honest, in the first nano-second or so of hearing of this mess, I said to myself "AH! The death-cult psychotics are at it again!!!"

Gee, I must be psychic or something. :rolleyes:
 
Gee, I must be psychic or something. :rolleyes:
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Obviously, to know that all "death-cult psychotics" are swarthy, Levantine males. :p


"Hell, Fred, that's just Sgt. Skorzeny. Let him drive to Ike's headquarters; we're supposed to be on guard against guys in Nazi uniforms with B-movie Kraut accents." :D
 
Obviously, to know that all "death-cult psychotics" are swarthy, Levantine males.
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Actually to know that Chechen so-called "rebels" are in fact death-cult psychotics.

That they were in the company (in this particular case) of a few - as you put it - "swarthy, Levantine males" removed any reasonable doubt of what they came to do. That is, they came to die die a senseless death while taking as many innocent children and adults with them as possible; their death-cult demands human sacrifice of them, and they obliged.

To pretend that they were simply disgruntled postal workers, former Weathermen Underground, Manson family members, or some other flavor of psychotic is disingenuous, but of course you already know that .
 
BTW is it now that one of us lodges a complaint vis-a-vis the number and type of smilies in a post? Or does that occur sometime later in this all too familiar little dance? ;)
 
I must strongly agree with most of what Handy said, and strongly disagree with most of what Fred and gburner said - go figure. :) Since it's not gun-related, I won't elaborate other than to say the issues ain't as black and white as the latter two apparently think.
 
Fred Hansen,

To pretend that they were simply disgruntled postal workers, former Weathermen Underground, Manson family members, or some other flavor of psychotic is disingenuous, but of course you already know that .
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I'm not suggesting that they were any other kind of psychotic besides the "death-cult" variety (as anyone who'd read this thread could tell you.) I was merely stipulating that assuming that I could guess their variety of psychosis from their gender or melanin content was fatuous, me not being "psychic" and all.

Thankfully, the actual career force protection professionals of my acquaintance aren't "psychic" either, merely professionally paranoid. ;) ;) ;) ;)

(Was that enough smilies?)
 
"Hell, Fred, that's just Sgt. Skorzeny. Let him drive to Ike's headquarters; we're supposed to be on guard against guys in Nazi uniforms with B-movie Kraut accents."
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Well I suppose that if Sgt. Skorzeny had just slaughtered a couple dozen people in front of dumb ol' Fred and whomever is speaking, then the two situations would be in some way comparable.

The perpetrators of this particular attack were not shrinking violets, nor were they cleverly trying to sneak past anyone. They did what murder-bombing freaks of their kind do. That is to say they stormed the building, anihilated those who resisted, and then while torturing and killing women and children at random, they simultaneously rigged (time being on their side due to inaction) the roof of the school with explosives.

Meanwhile dopes like dumb ol' Fred were saying "KILL THEM NOW!!!" At the same time all of the professional people who are able to perceive the gray areas of the issue attempted for many hours to "negotiate".

Then, after the maximum amount of psychological damage had been achieved, and after the world media had ample time to give the terrorists the air time they need to inspire their fellow radical Muslims, they set off the explosives, and brought the building down on themselves and their innocent victims. Thus they fulfilled the greatest sacrament of their theology. By spilling the blood of innocent children they assured themselves of an instant ticket to paradise complete with the requisite 72 virgins.

I'm certain that the weakness, appeasement, and supplication the negotiators offered the terrorists was cause for introspection on the part of at least some of the terrorists, but somehow, in the end, they still accomplished what they came for i.e. hundreds dead. Themselves included.

I suppose that's a little bit like a clever ploy to assassinate a General by posing as an American - replete with a flawless ability to mimic their language - but dumb ol' Fred doesn't really see the comparison.

I'm no expert on terrorism, but I do know that no IRA member ever demanded that everyone on planet Earth convert to Catholicism. And I've never heard of a terrorist that was impressed with an overwhelming show of weakness. Nor have I ever heard of a dead terrorist that continued to be a threat. So for me, when faced with this particular variety of terrorist - the variety whose PRIMARY mission is senseless slaughter - the only logical defense is to slaughter them first.
 
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