Russian school siege: 200+ hostages

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
I'm gonna have to on that one. I'm sure that if you really believe that, there is no problem I could ever help you with. Too far gone.
From ISBN 0415301025, p. 252
"The persistence of the old saw 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter', and the time wasted trying to force this false linkage, illustrates both the weakness of terrorist studies as an explanatory tool and the tyranny of simplistic slogans when they become a substitute for thought."

Lest I become accused of substituting quotes for thought myself, I don't fully agree with Whittaker. To the degree "terrorist" actions target government entities or employees (and not children or unaffiliated family members), I think the "old saw" has legs.

There's also the problem of the right of like-minded groups of people to self-determination. That right has disappeared now that there are semi-stable governments controlling virtually all habitable land on earth. Wilson was a fool. He should have listened to his Secretary of State. I bet one could argue in a paper that Wilson was the father of modern terrorism. :) :eek:
 
The problem is that - for whatever reason - the peaceful Muslims of the world have not come to grips with their need to help the world get rid of the animals among them once and for all. I suppose that after a time they will get the necessary clue. I pray they do every day.

The reason?

It is because the leaders of major Islamic institutions, including the largest mosque in Europe and the Grand Mosque in Mecca itself, say that these animals, as you put it, are on solid theological footing, and are following in the footsteps of the Prophet Muhammed in a holy and righteous struggle against the infidel (in other words, you, me, the Russians, Sudanese Christians, Indian Hindus, the Greek Orthodox, and anyone else who isn't under the heel of Islamic law or dead). What chance do peaceful Muslims have when the leaders of their most important religious institutions are against them?

Imam justifies suicide bombings in Israel
The new Imam of the Grand Mosque of Rome, the largest in Europe, called for the "victory of Islamic fighters in Palestine, Cechnya and other areas of the world" in his sermon Friday, June 6. He called for Allah's help in "the destruction of the homes and destruction of the enemies of Islam". He called for their "annihilation" and "the victory everywhere of the Nation of Islam."
Conclusion of sermon by Shaykh Abd-al-Bari al-Thubayti from the Grand Mosque in Mecca
"O God strengthen Islam and Muslims, humiliate infidelity and infidels, and destroy the unbelievers, your enemies, the enemies of Islam. O God, give safety to this country and to the countries of Muslims." ... "O God, protect Muslims in Palestine, Kashmir, Afghanistan, and Chechnya. O God, help the mujahidin elevate Your word everywhere, strengthen them, and unify their rank."
 
Our Founding Fathers fought for an ideal in which all are equal, regardless of race, religion, etc.

Even taking the tactics out of the equation, these would-be founding fathers fight to establish an Islamic state, where there's no pretense of equality. Yes, a big difference.
 
From other reports, the terrorists switched to civilian dress, and allowed four to come in to collect bodies of children that died under their mistreatment, then opened fire on the four, blew up the gym, and tried to escape in the panic.

Is this the kind of leader with which the Chechen people want to replace the Russians? G-d help us all if it is.

If Chechnya does win its independence from Russia, and two centuries hence someone makes a Chechnyan version of "The Patriot," it sounds like an honest filmmaker would have to reverse the roles of the perpetrators in the church burning scene, if honest films would even be allowed in Chechnya under an Islamic theocracy.
 
Some people will never learn - A CNN reporter said she couldn't understand how anyone could use children like that !! Their job is to create terror that's why they're called terrorists !!..A grandmother of one of the surviving kids said she didn't think her grandson would ever be a child again.
 
A CNN reporter said she couldn't understand how anyone could use children like that!!

The leftists over at CNN don't believe in the existence of evil, judging by their agreement with Saddam to muzzle their coverage of his atrocities in exchange for access, so this lack of understanding comes as no surprise.

So many fuzzy-headed leftists have criticized Bush for framing the War on Terror in terms of "Good vs. Evil," but such criticism is merely a symptom of their pervasive moral relativism and stunted ethical development.

Take John Kerry's "more sensitive" war on terror, for example, to the tune of "if only we could understand the and address the grievances of bloodthirsty fanatic Chechen child-murderers, we could have peace."

You'd think that evil such as this slaughter of innocent children, thrown right in the leftists' faces, would shake them out of their moral stupor, but apparently not.
 
A couple of interesting bits of information coming out of the coverage of this abomination.

One

"Fellow hostage Zalina Dzandarova, 27, said two women suicide bombers had blown themselves up in a corridor of the school on the first day of the siege, killing some male hostages.

"The men terrorists told us afterwards that their sisters had conquered," she said."

Ms Dzandarova said the gunmen had shot dead at least 20 people on the first day of the siege.

They killed those who had been wounded during the invasion of the school and also killed any men who tried to resist them, she said.

"Some of the wounded were taken out of the gym and finished off right in the corridor," the former hostage added.
from the BBC

It would appear that the wheels came off because they (the terrorists) weren't actually planning for a seige or protracted negotiations. This was straight out of Al-Qaeda's playbook as illustrated in the now famous training video. Grab people, kill any that resist, get media attention, make impossible demands, then kill and die. Basically an elaborate drawn out suicide attack. Exactly the kind of operation that terrorists would like to mount in the US, given the opportunity.

Two

"In order to save the lives of the hostages, we started returning fire. Citizens with light arms also began returning fire at the bandits. At some stage, the Special Forces were prevented from acting effectively." (Emphasis mine)
A statement from Valery Andreyev,head of the Federal Security Service for North Ossetia, via the BBC

What's up with that? What's more interesting in that statement, that their trying to place blame, or the citizens shooting?
 
Citizens adding to the shooting certainly could tie the hands of the professionals.

Can you imagine if every yahoo with a gun showed up at a bank robbery standoff?
 
Those professionals had two days to create an adequate perimeter. More than one seige or standoff here in the US has featured law enforcement turning away armed bystanders at the properly established outer perimeter. I can see it being a problem on day one, but this was going into what, day three? Starting to sound like an excuse at this point.
 
This wasn't a bank robbery and I'll be that the armed civilians weren't yahoos. If it was your child/children (God forbid) you would be armed and on site too.
 
Can you imagine if every yahoo with a gun showed up at a bank robbery standoff?
I can.



Charles Whitman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
This article is about the criminal Charles J. Whitman. For the politician, please see Charles S. Whitman...


...Six tourists who were heading up the stairs moments later were not so fortunate. As the two teenaged boys in the group opened the deck area door from the stairway, Whitman met them with a blast from his illegally-fashioned sawed-off shotgun. The gunfire sent them tumbling back down the stairs to a landing. Of the six, two died and two others had permanent injuries. The two men in the group, who were at the foot of the stairs when the shot rang out, were not hit. One of them was crazed with desire for revenge, while the other was numbed with shock...


A history professor who had an office in Garrison Hall, overlooking the Main Mall, saw the first victims drop to the ground just south of the tower and immediately phoned the Austin police department. His call was followed by a flurry of similar phone messages from other horrified campus-area employees and students clamoring for police help and medical assistance.

The murderous rampage sparked panic among residents in Austin as news spread on the local media and by word of mouth. Ramiro Martinez, an Austin police officer, was cooking himself lunch and readying for his afternoon shift when he heard a bulletin on KTBC-TV from newsman Joe Roddy. He immediately called police headquarters to see if he could help and was told to go without delay to the campus area and assist with traffic control. As the drama played out, he was one of the two officers who would fire the final shots at Whitman. His on-duty colleague Houston McCoy had received the primary call to proceed to campus minutes before. When the magnitude of what was happening became apparent, every officer on duty was ordered to the campus.

Had Whitman arrived on the deck slightly later, he would have been in time for summer session lunch hour foot traffic as classes let out--the number of potential victims would have been greatly increased. As it happened his prey was limited to stragglers. The victims were young to old, male and female, and his accuracy was astounding; two hits found their mark more than 450 yards away from the tower. The worst killing zone, as far of numbers of people hit, was Guadalupe Street (known as "The Drag"), which is still the major shopping, food service, and business district across from the west side of the campus.

Local Secret Service agents from the Johnson administration as well as sheriff's department officers, Department of Public Safety officers, Austin police and campus police came to assist at the scene, but Whitman was well barricaded on the deck. In fact, as later observers said, the deck was tailor made for a madman like Whitman. During the latter part of his rampage, he was using the drainspouts located on each side to fire through, making him virtually impossible to hit from the ground.

As word went out, many students and area residents with high powered deer rifles loaded their their weapons and ran to campus to return fire. Students, bystanders and campus area employees performed heroic acts to drag or carry wounded victims to safety where they could be picked up by ambulances, risking their own lives.

In 1966, Austin did not have a 911 system or city-operated ambulances. The ambulances were run by the funeral homes. Many funeral home employees risked their lives in the effort to save victims. One, Morris Hohmann, from Hyltin-Manor Funeral Home, was working on the Drag to load up victims at the corner of West 23rd Street at the height of the rampage. He had ducked and was moving along behind his firm's ambulance, which was turning the corner slowly to the west and Whitman saw him as his cover disappeared. Whitman's shot hit his leg, ripping open a major artery. As his damaged limb ballooned in size, he had to use his own belt as a tourniquet on it to keep from bleeding to death. He was soon loaded into his own ambulance and rushed to the Brackenridge ER along with many others who had been jammed into in the vehicle. He survived and became a respected funeral director at Hyltin-Manor.

Austin only had one full-scale emergency room at that time--in Brackenridge Hospital--a city run facility on IH 35 about ten blocks south of the UT area. It quickly became overtaxed with victims. Doctors, nurses, and medical technicians raced there from all parts of the city to reinforce the on-duty staff. The lines at the city blood center on IH 35 and at Brackenridge itself stretched for blocks as citizens lined up to donate their life fluid. One victim said that people were laid in a row on the emergency room hallway floor "like cordwood." Nurses and other personnel strived to treat the most seriously wounded first. Later reports showed that the totally over-extended staff did a magnificent job and saved many lives. Legend has it that in the aftermath, one exhausted and distraught nurse who had maintained professional composure through the whole ordeal broke down crying and threw her blood-soaked shoes in the trash.

Law enforcement officials tried to distract or even shoot Whitman by flying around the tower in a small airplane commandeered from a local air park. The plan to fire at him from the plane was abandoned when it became obvious that a stray bullet could hit innocent people in upper offices/classrooms in the tower. Whitman actually fired at the airplane. The officer on board suddenly realized the predicament he would be in if the pilot was hit, because he had no flying experience. But the officer did provide useful communications to ground personnel about Whitman's movements throughout the incident and he was able to confirm that there was only one shooter. Austin police contacted nearby Bergstrom Air Force Base about bringing in an armed helicopter to aid in the assault effort, but the problem of hitting the wrong people was the same.

One of the most poignant events in the madness happened when Paul Bolton, then the dean of Austin broadcast news who was anchoring the KTBC-am (now KLBJ-am) coverage, heard a list of the dead being read on-air by Joe Roddy, one of his reporters. Roddy, who broke the story on KTBC-TV, was in a remote unit at the Brackenridge Hospital ER. Bolton interrupted and requested that Roddy reread a name on the list. Bolton said, "that's my grandson." Indeed, the named victim was Paul Sonntag, Bolton's grandson, who was shot along with his girl friend Claudia Rutt on the Drag. Sonntag had instantly died. Rutt also died from a lung injury after admittance at the ER.

Back at the Austin police station, the two men who ran the switchboard were deluged with calls from the campus area begging for help as victims were pulled into stores and classroom buildings. In addition, as word spread nationwide, news organzations ranging from radio stations in Texas to the national networks in New York City were phoning and demanding information. These calls were put off, since the two operators had no way of dealing with them and the backlog of crucial pleas for assistance was growing by the minute.

The attacks continued until the observation deck was stormed by volunteers who took it upon themselves to stop the killing. Two armed APD officers, Houston McCoy and Ramiro Martinez, along with a temporarily deputized private citizen, Allan Crum, crept out onto the observation deck to confront Whitman with their weapons, while a group of additional law enforcement officials stayed inside the top floor to communicate to police headquarters, provide backup fire, and help wounded civilians. Crum, a retired military officer, was the security director of the University Co-op, the main campus bookstore, on Guadalupe Street. His usual activities during the day were limited to catching shoplifters and maintaining order in the store. Later accounts confirmed that he was instrumental in organizing the effort to subdue Whitman.

Crum, Martinez and McCoy slowly ventured out of the southeast side door onto the observation deck around 1:15. The deputized Crum headed west on the south side with a rifle he had been given by one of the law enforcement officers. Dodging "friendly fire" from the ground, Martinez and McCoy turned the corner to their left and made it to the northeast corner of the observation deck. There they saw Whitman in the northwest corner, directly across from them. He was in a sniper's crouch, pointing his rifle to the south, towards where he thought he would be threatened. First, Martinez emptied his .38 revolver at him, distracting Whitman and making it impossible for him to lower and aim his rifle back towards the police officers. Then the 6'4" McCoy raised up behind Martinez and fired two rounds from his shotgun, hitting Whitman in the head. With that, Martinez grabbed McCoy's shotgun and unleashing a frenzied scream, ran all the way down to Whitman, who had collapsed. He drilled another round into the sniper's head, point blank. Martinez then grabbed a towel that Whitman had laid nearby and leaping up, waved it in a rapid circle to let ground level shooters know that the nightmare was over.

Soon, everyone on campus knew that fact as well. Like lemmings to the sea, hundreds of people who had been holed up in classrooms and stores scrambled towards the campus. When the word spread to the Brackenridge ER that the sniper had been killed, a macabre cry of elation went up from the injured waiting for treatment. (Emphasis added)

______________________________________________
 
It really wasn't so long ago that men were men, and for that matter, women were women rather than sheeple. They were because they had to be. No one was going to magically appear and "negotiate" with animals that more rightly should simply be made dead before they hit the ground. In the small town where I grew up just 4 short decades ago, people looking for trouble would have found more than they could bear. And it wouldn't have been because they encountered "professionals", rather it would have been because (at my home for instance) my mother, my father, me, my sisters, or frankly any or all of us would be sticking things like SxS Parkers loaded with #00 Buck in their faces.

Only in our recent history has it been that men show up, and then hide behind firetrucks while children are slaughtered, and their teachers left to bleed to death in equipment closets. :mad:

Which is not to say that heros like Joel Myrick don't still exist, it's just that they are so few.
 
So, you're saying that the "Men" should endanger police and create a more chaotic situation by adding their uncoordinated fire to a touchy hostage situation? Or are you saying you want the police or army to stay home, and let the armed civilians handle it?


I doesn't sound like the article you posted and a school surrounded by the Russian Army have much in common.


Seeing how well the average gun enthusiast can shoot, I certainly wouldn't want them offering me "cover fire".
 
Nice to see that I'm not the only one putting words in folks mouths and being downright insulting. With an attitude like that, I don't think you'll have to worry about us offering you 'cover fire'.
 
So, you're saying that the "Men" should endanger police and create a more chaotic situation by adding their uncoordinated fire to a touchy hostage situation? Or are you saying you want the police or army to stay home, and let the armed civilians handle it?
No, what I said was that there have been situations in the not so distant past where cover fire from civilians was instrumental in saving lives. In the Joel Myrick example it was only his efforts that stopped Luke Woodard from escaping to do further damage. The "professionals" can't be everywhere at once. Is that really difficult to understand?
I doesn't sound like the article you posted and a school surrounded by the Russian Army have much in common.
On that we agree. The current situation involves the Russians screwing up for the billionth time in their history. My example involves people (armed civilians and police) who, through their co-ordinated efforts, stopped a murdering psychotic.
Seeing how well the average gun enthusiast can shoot, I certainly wouldn't want them offering me "cover fire".
As opposed to say the "professionals" that got off 41 shots (only 19 of which hit) at point blank range at Amadou Diallo?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly didn't offer you any cover fire. On the other hand, if you were to get between me, and the possibility of saving one of my many loved ones, you might find that I really couldn't care less what you want. And that's not too difficult to understand either is it?
 
G, What the hell are you talking about!!???? What insults?!

I post a very simple opinion that having extra people shooting when a large police or similar group is trying to contain a hostage situation is a bad idea. Your response is that it's okay, because of emotional involvement? Then Fred posts his story, which is about the police being overwhelmed and people requiring rescue under fire, which is completely different then a barricaded hostage situation. Of course citizen gun owners can be an asset, but this is an excellent example of where that does not apply.

The Russian school was surrounded by soldiers with automatic weapons and radio coms. They are not going to require volunteers - uncoordinated shooting is more likely to get the good guys or hostages killed.

I can't believe anyone would seriously suggest that next time there's a hostage situation nearby, with full SWAT coverage, that we all mosey down to see if we can help shoot some people. That's dumb. It endangers the police officers who are trained to do this right and are already risking their lives, and it creates an even more uncontrollable situation where the police can't even guarantee the safety of the bad guys, should they wish to give themselves up (as these things usually end), putting the hostages in even greater danger.

You guys are advocating anarchy, not help. Fred, the willingness to sacrifice any number of other citizens in the hopes of sparing your loved ones is perhaps understandable, but far from commendable. In fact, it has all the hallmarks of terrorism - the willingness to do anything to achieve the needs of your own people.
 
should they wish to give themselves up (as these things usually end)
Chechen death-cultists giving up? Where? When?

So now I'm a terrorist?
AR15firing.gif



xxrotflmao.gif
 
Officials said security forces had not planned to assault the school, where the militants had been holding hostages — up to 1,500 of them, according to one freed captive — in the gymnasium since Wednesday morning. But the troops' hand was forced when the militants set off explosions and began shooting Friday afternoon, officials said.
Sounds like "the usual" end to me. :rolleyes:

I'm not running hot in the slightest. I'm laughing so hard I have tears rolling down my cheeks.
 
Let's assume for a moment that the elementary school down the block from where you live is taken over by gun-wielding radical muslim terrorists. There are 500 children inside, and the terrorists have made a statement saying that they will kill them unless the United States bows down to their demands. Well, the US has a policy of not caving into such demands, so they'll send some bozo with a bullhorn and cell phone to negotiate. Little do they know that radical muslim terrorists get their instructions from Allah himself, so negotiations are really a moot point.

Question is, how many children are going to die before the building is stormed by the SWAT team? 1? 10? 40? It's much like that question asked by John Travolta's character in Swordfish. How many hostages die before the US changes its policy on hostage negotiations?

Now, at the same time, there's you, TFL member sitting at home arguing with Handy et al about headspacing a .284 Winchester built on a Mauser action. You hear that the local school, the one you send your children to everyday, has been taken over by lunatics. Do you sit there in stunned silence waiting for the "professionals" to handle it, or do you grap your FAL from the safe and head over? What if the media reports that five children have already been murdered? What if that number was ten? At what point do we make the professional's business our own? Or should we bother? Should we just sit there "safe" in the knowledge that our best trained, best educated, best equipped, best prepared troops are on the job? Are they willing to die for your children? Are you?

BTW, this is not a knock at SWAT guys or other LEO's at all....but radical muslim terrorists taking over a grammar school is not a criminal matter. It's tantamount to a call to arms, one that citizens have a right and obligation to which to respond.

Thoughts?
 
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