Russian school siege: 200+ hostages
- Thread starter Faithless
- Start date
The evening that the story of the final massacre at the Russian school broke, the BBC and other networks were interviewing people in Russia about whether the Russians had handled it wrong. The big question was whether to believe that the final raid was simple reaction,as stated, to the terrorists shooting at some children attempting to escape-- or if they had simply executed a planned raid, and it backfired.
The "proof" that the raid was planned was that they had built up more soldiers, more armament, and there was no clear way of ending the standoff. Um. . . if they hadn't put more soldiers and arms there, and things had gone off wrong, the argument of their incompetancy would be pretty hard to ignore, no?
My irritation at this event is that there is any question as to who should be blamed for this horrific event. Little hint: The Chechyn "freedom fighters" killed the children. Let's restate that: Because they were mad at a foreign policy, grown men and women entered a grade school, and murdered little boys and little girls, after threatening them with arms for two days.
Friends, I'm a grown man, and a cop, and supposedly am pretty inured to bad things going on in the world, but I've got to tell you: the thought of adults planning and then executing such an act-- it makes my eyes water. The question you ask: "What if it had been my children in there?"
I used to feel pretty badly for the Chechyns; the Russians have treated them pretty badly since the breakup of the USSR. You know what? Any pity I had for Chechnya is gone. And they have these self-appointed "freedom fighters" [ :barf: ] to thank for that. To Hell with them.
As for "different tactics," would you want to live in a nation that won its independance in this way? Bah. Better to give my coppers to King George than take his subjects's babies and torture and murder them. 
The "proof" that the raid was planned was that they had built up more soldiers, more armament, and there was no clear way of ending the standoff. Um. . . if they hadn't put more soldiers and arms there, and things had gone off wrong, the argument of their incompetancy would be pretty hard to ignore, no?
My irritation at this event is that there is any question as to who should be blamed for this horrific event. Little hint: The Chechyn "freedom fighters" killed the children. Let's restate that: Because they were mad at a foreign policy, grown men and women entered a grade school, and murdered little boys and little girls, after threatening them with arms for two days.
Friends, I'm a grown man, and a cop, and supposedly am pretty inured to bad things going on in the world, but I've got to tell you: the thought of adults planning and then executing such an act-- it makes my eyes water. The question you ask: "What if it had been my children in there?"
I used to feel pretty badly for the Chechyns; the Russians have treated them pretty badly since the breakup of the USSR. You know what? Any pity I had for Chechnya is gone. And they have these self-appointed "freedom fighters" [ :barf: ] to thank for that. To Hell with them.
As for "different tactics," would you want to live in a nation that won its independance in this way? Bah. Better to give my coppers to King George than take his subjects's babies and torture and murder them.
Fred Hansen
New member
I think the above bears repeating until some people here finally get it.
I think the above bears repeating until some people here finally get it.
It is impossible for me to believe that any decent human being cannot understand those simple concepts except through willful ignorance.
On the other hand, the world has seen - and will see again - those who aid and abet others who commit acts of depraved indifference; which would of course place that person or persons outside of the definition of decent. Neither place seems enviable to me.
My question to those who think these people freedom's patriots is this: What more need these animals do before you can find them to be souless ghouls???
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
The Russians withdrew from Chechyna in '92 after the last war there. The area had de facto independence from Moscow, and would have had actual independence in 5-10 years. All the Islamicists in power there had do do was simply wait.
Instead, they deicded to allow Al-Queda to set up operations, and allow them along with other radical Islamic groups to try and destabilize neighboring Dagestan, and launch massive terror attacks (acts of Islam-inspired genocide) inside of Russia proper. Recall the apartment block bombings.
The Islamicists have essentially forced the Russians back into Chechyna.
Did the US Navy and Marines launch offensive operations in London some years after the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown? I must have missed that fact somehow.
My hope is that the forthcoming Russian response makes people look back at it years from now and say that they finally took the gloves off in responding the the Muslim Chechnyan terrorists.
Destructo6
New member
You're right, but it in no way diminishes the repulsiveness of the Chechen acts.
Same here. When they were fighting Russian troops on Chechen soil, I could sympathize. Not now. Russia can do whatever they want, as far as I'm concerned.
fallingblock
New member
I agree....
The Chechens will no doubt regret the actions of these terrorists.
The specific targeting of children is just too barbaric for most outsiders who otherwise might empathize with the Chechen cause.
The Chechens will no doubt regret the actions of these terrorists.
The specific targeting of children is just too barbaric for most outsiders who otherwise might empathize with the Chechen cause.
Wouldn't holding Chechen population at large for the actions of a few nutcases be as wrong as murdering Osetian kids for the sins of the Russian military? Russian army has killed plenty of kids by rockets, artillery, starvation and exposure, but that doesn't make the kids of the murderers culpable for the sins of their parents.
PsychoSword
Moderator
I thought they said on the news that it was half Arab fighters?
Complex Issue
What you see now is a remnant of a decade long war by Chechneya against Russia for independence. Although Putin has kept an iron wall around the media there, it is known at least 100,000 Chechneyans have been killed there by the Soviets in the last few years.
Bottom line, the "people" who can slaughter children are no longer fighting for independence, they simply want to inflict as much suffering as possible on the Russians at any cost. The so-called "Black Widow Brigade" are the widows of men killed there who happliy blow themselves up if they can take a couple of Russians with them. The leader of this last plot who was referred to by the Russians as the "Chechneyan Bin Laden" had his wife and five children slaughtered in a Russian air raid some years back. If you burn the humanity out of people, they stop acting like humans.
And for Putin, the arm-breaking thug in the fancy suit, he says that the problem is the Russians "showed weakness"... which is code for an impending crackdown. Putin tries to tie this war to the general war on terror, but the Chechneyans have been fighting for independence for over 150 years. Look for an upcoming bloodbath in Chechneya as Putin "restores order".
What a mess. :barf:
What you see now is a remnant of a decade long war by Chechneya against Russia for independence. Although Putin has kept an iron wall around the media there, it is known at least 100,000 Chechneyans have been killed there by the Soviets in the last few years.
Bottom line, the "people" who can slaughter children are no longer fighting for independence, they simply want to inflict as much suffering as possible on the Russians at any cost. The so-called "Black Widow Brigade" are the widows of men killed there who happliy blow themselves up if they can take a couple of Russians with them. The leader of this last plot who was referred to by the Russians as the "Chechneyan Bin Laden" had his wife and five children slaughtered in a Russian air raid some years back. If you burn the humanity out of people, they stop acting like humans.
And for Putin, the arm-breaking thug in the fancy suit, he says that the problem is the Russians "showed weakness"... which is code for an impending crackdown. Putin tries to tie this war to the general war on terror, but the Chechneyans have been fighting for independence for over 150 years. Look for an upcoming bloodbath in Chechneya as Putin "restores order".
What a mess. :barf:
"For the Russian authorities, the culprits of the school massacre were evident: they were Chechen separatists. But local people suspect a completely different hand in the attack: that of the neighbouring Ingush, with whom they have been at war for centuries."
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr040908_1_n.shtml
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr040908_1_n.shtml
This is a good thread. I think there are a couple of good points here.
1. Ok, you have a small town with a lot of students and parents in it. Terrorists suddenly take over. The longer you wait, the better their defense is going to be right? They are going to set up more explosives, they are going to establish fighting positions, they are going to round up more hostages. So what if locals respond with guns and instead of waiting, the police and regular citizens storm the building? I could see it happening in my little town of 25,000. Everyone here is pretty much armed. You get a hundred red-necks or so to show up with whatever they got, you got a pretty good assault force. Sure people are going to die, but how many compared to waiting?
See the question we have to ask ourselves is this. A well armed and explosives toting force takes over a school, what possibly could their intentions be? Especially post-911? The reason a mid-air hijacking will never succeed again is because of Flight 91. Flight 91 ended hijackings for a long time. So why not respond in the same way to a bunch of terrorists taking over a school? Sure we could wait and let some professionals show up so they can die along with the children when they storm in or if they are lucky they will just blow the place up while they are on the perimeter and only the children will die. I say get a bunch of armed locals and take the place immediately. Best worst case scenario, you free a bunch of kids and then run into the terrorists and get in a bloody shootout mess. Worst case scenario, the terrorists get plenty of time to round up more classrooms and hostages and then waste them all anyway. Do we really think it is going to be like movies and video games where the SWAT team goes in, suffers few casualties and saves the day? Maybe. I just tend to think the longer you wait, the worse your odds.
2. Sure, once the perimeter is secured and you wait a day or two, there is no point in having a bunch of armed locals around, if you have the resources to get trained professionals there. If you don't have enough, get a few good shots and tell them the rules of engagement. If nothing else, have one cop sit with one citizen shooter and have the cop hold the ammo. If the thing goes to crap, give the shooter the ammo and have the cop identify targets and maintain radio contact.
3. My guess is part of the Russian's problem is logistics and command and control. You probably have a lot of federal level agencies wanting to take over for the locals and there might not be a clear chain of command. Add that to the general melay of having all sorts of armed officers and militia there with no set uniform, I can see a major charlie foxtrot developing. Again, I keep coming back to the great point that when islamic extremists take over a school with explosives, there is no point in bargaining. Develop a plan and go in ASAP. Time is only lives lost. I hope people are going over that point right now.
4. Don't let the liberals place the blame on anyone or anything other than on the terrorists. I can't stand this attitude that someone has to be blamed for 911 or for the Russian situation. I think it shows a severe case of arrogance when we act like someone must have screwed up bad to let this happen. Hello! 911 happened because our enemies exploited our weaknesses. There is no one to blame other than a very effective plan, good execution, and complaceny. And again the posibility of another 911 happening ended less than two hours after the first plane hit the towers when Flight 91 crashed into the fields of Pennsylvania. Lets give these terrorists credit when they deserve it. They had a good plan and they effectively carried it out. We stop it by knowing our weaknesses and being determined to be more vigilant. Forget about blame, just focus on solutions. Heck I even heard some crap on the news this morning where some Russian was asking how these terrorists were able to get a hold of modern military arms. STUPID! Where there is a will, there is a way. Our will has to be stronger than theirs.
1. Ok, you have a small town with a lot of students and parents in it. Terrorists suddenly take over. The longer you wait, the better their defense is going to be right? They are going to set up more explosives, they are going to establish fighting positions, they are going to round up more hostages. So what if locals respond with guns and instead of waiting, the police and regular citizens storm the building? I could see it happening in my little town of 25,000. Everyone here is pretty much armed. You get a hundred red-necks or so to show up with whatever they got, you got a pretty good assault force. Sure people are going to die, but how many compared to waiting?
See the question we have to ask ourselves is this. A well armed and explosives toting force takes over a school, what possibly could their intentions be? Especially post-911? The reason a mid-air hijacking will never succeed again is because of Flight 91. Flight 91 ended hijackings for a long time. So why not respond in the same way to a bunch of terrorists taking over a school? Sure we could wait and let some professionals show up so they can die along with the children when they storm in or if they are lucky they will just blow the place up while they are on the perimeter and only the children will die. I say get a bunch of armed locals and take the place immediately. Best worst case scenario, you free a bunch of kids and then run into the terrorists and get in a bloody shootout mess. Worst case scenario, the terrorists get plenty of time to round up more classrooms and hostages and then waste them all anyway. Do we really think it is going to be like movies and video games where the SWAT team goes in, suffers few casualties and saves the day? Maybe. I just tend to think the longer you wait, the worse your odds.
2. Sure, once the perimeter is secured and you wait a day or two, there is no point in having a bunch of armed locals around, if you have the resources to get trained professionals there. If you don't have enough, get a few good shots and tell them the rules of engagement. If nothing else, have one cop sit with one citizen shooter and have the cop hold the ammo. If the thing goes to crap, give the shooter the ammo and have the cop identify targets and maintain radio contact.
3. My guess is part of the Russian's problem is logistics and command and control. You probably have a lot of federal level agencies wanting to take over for the locals and there might not be a clear chain of command. Add that to the general melay of having all sorts of armed officers and militia there with no set uniform, I can see a major charlie foxtrot developing. Again, I keep coming back to the great point that when islamic extremists take over a school with explosives, there is no point in bargaining. Develop a plan and go in ASAP. Time is only lives lost. I hope people are going over that point right now.
4. Don't let the liberals place the blame on anyone or anything other than on the terrorists. I can't stand this attitude that someone has to be blamed for 911 or for the Russian situation. I think it shows a severe case of arrogance when we act like someone must have screwed up bad to let this happen. Hello! 911 happened because our enemies exploited our weaknesses. There is no one to blame other than a very effective plan, good execution, and complaceny. And again the posibility of another 911 happening ended less than two hours after the first plane hit the towers when Flight 91 crashed into the fields of Pennsylvania. Lets give these terrorists credit when they deserve it. They had a good plan and they effectively carried it out. We stop it by knowing our weaknesses and being determined to be more vigilant. Forget about blame, just focus on solutions. Heck I even heard some crap on the news this morning where some Russian was asking how these terrorists were able to get a hold of modern military arms. STUPID! Where there is a will, there is a way. Our will has to be stronger than theirs.
"Wouldn't holding Chechen population at large for the actions of a few nutcases be as wrong as murdering Osetian kids for the sins of the Russian military? Russian army has killed plenty of kids by rockets, artillery, starvation and exposure, but that doesn't make the kids of the murderers culpable for the sins of their parents."
Oleg
I don't think anyone can argue the logic or inherent truth of your comment but neither can anyone viewing the soul emptying carnage caused by these terrorist disconnect themselves from the powerful desire for revenge against those who murdered innocent children. I can't speak for anyone else but as a parent the psycology of this thing gives rise to emotions that do not answer the call of logic. It calls forth something much more primitive. I have only seen a very few pictures of the broken bodies of those kids and that was enough for me to know the terrorists will be paying a very big price for this attack.
I cannot imagine how the terrorists believed this would end in anything but disaster for their side. In one move the terrorist took their cause forever out of the political arena. The terrorists will go down in history only for causing a bottomless sadness without meaning, all recorded on film for posterity for its total lack humanity.
S-
Oleg
I don't think anyone can argue the logic or inherent truth of your comment but neither can anyone viewing the soul emptying carnage caused by these terrorist disconnect themselves from the powerful desire for revenge against those who murdered innocent children. I can't speak for anyone else but as a parent the psycology of this thing gives rise to emotions that do not answer the call of logic. It calls forth something much more primitive. I have only seen a very few pictures of the broken bodies of those kids and that was enough for me to know the terrorists will be paying a very big price for this attack.
I cannot imagine how the terrorists believed this would end in anything but disaster for their side. In one move the terrorist took their cause forever out of the political arena. The terrorists will go down in history only for causing a bottomless sadness without meaning, all recorded on film for posterity for its total lack humanity.
S-
Which is a wonderful tool the state can use to get the citizens to rally against whatever target the state designates. It is the emotional tool that motivated us to invade Iraq to stop terrorism(?). It was the tool used on the public to go to war with Spain after an unexplained explosion on the Maine. And it will be the tool Putin uses to crush anyone inconvenient in Chechnia.
I think TV might ultimately be the enemy of democracy. You can't make foreign policy while thinking like a teary-eyed caveman. Revenge is not something that should become a policy among thinking people. Anger has no place in making peace.
When you are at war with a homicidal/suicidal enemy, peace can only be achieved through the elimination of that enemy.
My sincere hope is that Putin WILL use this incident to be ruthless in killing and destroying all those involved in or sympathetic to the Islamic terrorists.
The rules of engagement (or lack thereof) have been set by the terrorists. We cannot afford to "play fair". To win a war, you must break the will to fight of the enemy. Those you cannot break, you kill. You don’t try to make friends until after the war is won.
Their will to fight is incredibly strong and strengthened every day by the defiant and inflammatory sermons uttered in mosques all over the world. Their "holy" men are a protected class … off limits to American bullets because of our fear of escalation. I doubt the Russians will tie their own hands in this way.
I remember the video of Arab celebrations after 9-11. The rabble of the middle east taking to the streets in joy that the U.S. had been taken down a notch. While I would not condone (at this point) targeting civilian populations, I would not lose a wink of sleep over collateral damage… nor would I make any special effort to minimize civilian casualties.
You can gripe about the state’s manipulation of the populace all you want but sometimes (twice a day
)the state is right. Besides, most of the manipulation of the masses here is done by the press.
My sincere hope is that Putin WILL use this incident to be ruthless in killing and destroying all those involved in or sympathetic to the Islamic terrorists.
The rules of engagement (or lack thereof) have been set by the terrorists. We cannot afford to "play fair". To win a war, you must break the will to fight of the enemy. Those you cannot break, you kill. You don’t try to make friends until after the war is won.
Their will to fight is incredibly strong and strengthened every day by the defiant and inflammatory sermons uttered in mosques all over the world. Their "holy" men are a protected class … off limits to American bullets because of our fear of escalation. I doubt the Russians will tie their own hands in this way.
I remember the video of Arab celebrations after 9-11. The rabble of the middle east taking to the streets in joy that the U.S. had been taken down a notch. While I would not condone (at this point) targeting civilian populations, I would not lose a wink of sleep over collateral damage… nor would I make any special effort to minimize civilian casualties.
You can gripe about the state’s manipulation of the populace all you want but sometimes (twice a day
)the state is right. Besides, most of the manipulation of the masses here is done by the press.Handy
The emotions that are arosed by the killing of children are primal and at the core of human existance (probably ordered right next to fight or flight responses but clearly distinct from f or f). Government, in this case, need not do any arm twisting to get the citizens approval for a response. Actually, the citizens will demand a response and they may expect something pretty darn severe at that.
By comparison, the emotions that arise in relationship to events on the scale of Iraq, Spain and possibly even TWC be not drive human emotion or thinking in the same way the attacks in Russia did, or at least come nowhere close to ones I'm talking about qualitatively or quantitatively. They are not even remotely comparable.
I may agree that government may try to draw emotions into >>these kinds<< of equations but it's a harder sell and I don't think people totally divest themselves from the logical processes involved in decision making for an Iraq or TWC.
Are you a parent?
I think that is key to understanding what I am attempting to say.
S-
The emotions that are arosed by the killing of children are primal and at the core of human existance (probably ordered right next to fight or flight responses but clearly distinct from f or f). Government, in this case, need not do any arm twisting to get the citizens approval for a response. Actually, the citizens will demand a response and they may expect something pretty darn severe at that.
By comparison, the emotions that arise in relationship to events on the scale of Iraq, Spain and possibly even TWC be not drive human emotion or thinking in the same way the attacks in Russia did, or at least come nowhere close to ones I'm talking about qualitatively or quantitatively. They are not even remotely comparable.
I may agree that government may try to draw emotions into >>these kinds<< of equations but it's a harder sell and I don't think people totally divest themselves from the logical processes involved in decision making for an Iraq or TWC.
Are you a parent?
I think that is key to understanding what I am attempting to say.
S-
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Fred Hansen
New member
Make peace with death-worshippers... Hmmmm... Nope, not gonna do it. You should feel free to run up the white flag any time bud, just make it clear to those psychotics that you aren't surrendering on my behalf.
Oh, and just in case you missed it, this particular hostage episode ended the way they "usually" do. The death-cultists blew themselves and their hostages up, then those who weren't killed or buried in the blast were shot in the back by the remaining death-cult psychotics. They would have killed more if only the Russian imbeciles had given them a day or three more. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Russians didn't do everything they could to let the death-cultists kill as many innocent people as possible, it's just that death-worshippers have itchy trigger fingers.
It's been a few days now, I wonder if the "professionals" are done pulling their heads out of their ***???
I don't know if Handy is a parent or not, but he sounds as if he's running for UN Secretary General.
Anyone who isn't emotionally touched by the slaughter of those children is as soul less as the animals who committed the act. Anyone who cannot understand the undeniable need for a parent to defend their young, regardless of circumstance, is equally impaired.
Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the right to swift and definitive retribution for such an act is lost.
Anyone who isn't emotionally touched by the slaughter of those children is as soul less as the animals who committed the act. Anyone who cannot understand the undeniable need for a parent to defend their young, regardless of circumstance, is equally impaired.
Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the right to swift and definitive retribution for such an act is lost.
Make peace with death worshippers? While all the emotion is directed toward the executioners - it seems that Mr. Putin has a different idea as to who hired them ....
"... Some would like to tear from us a “juicy piece of pie”. Others help them. They help, reasoning that Russia still remains one of the world’s major nuclear powers, and as such still represents a threat to them. And so they reason that this threat should be removed.
Terrorism, of course, is just an instrument to achieve these aims ..." - Vladimir Putin, September 4, 2004
http://president.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speeches/2004/09/04/1958_76332.shtml
I wonder who he is talking about.
"... Some would like to tear from us a “juicy piece of pie”. Others help them. They help, reasoning that Russia still remains one of the world’s major nuclear powers, and as such still represents a threat to them. And so they reason that this threat should be removed.
Terrorism, of course, is just an instrument to achieve these aims ..." - Vladimir Putin, September 4, 2004
http://president.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speeches/2004/09/04/1958_76332.shtml
I wonder who he is talking about.
Retribution on whom? Those who are guilty, or just any of the same ethnic group as the guilty. Swift is rarely accurate, and therefore unjust.
I'm not a parent, so I guess I don't understand the call to kill someone (guilty or not) so I can assuage my bloodlust.
And obviously I didn't mean make peace with terrorists.
Making peace means killing or stopping the right people; not everyone in Chechnia, or everyone in a turban, or whoever the watercooler jury currently thinks are worth killing.Fred Hansen
New member
No post of yours that I have ever read would make that obvious. Not one.