Also, I'm sure it's plenty accurate at intermediate distances of 30 to over 75 yards with a little practice. I've seen people shoot 20" groups at 35 yards with snubbies, so that barrel lenth and sight pic will shoot just fine. I don't see why anyone would bother with anything but 38's though. Nobody is going to care about velocity or stopping power with this thing. I'm just going to get one and waste about 50 bucks worth of walmart 38's on coffe cans arrayed all over the fallen log in my grandma's pasture!
Rossi Ranch Hand
- Thread starter shafter
- Start date
My pre ordered Ranch Hand in 44mag was shipped yesterday. It is coming from a dealer in Idaho to my FFL guy this week.
I ordered it back in Aug. Long time for that kind of money to sit. But, I hope to be glad I did.
Now, I am researching the Federal laws on a lever action handgun.
I had read that the total length had to be 24". But NOT a legal reference, just anecdotal.
I want to cut the stock down to put it at the size the one Josh Randall had. If you look at it the RH is about two inches longer. Why, I don't know unless the 24" rule is true.
With the stock cut and the butt plate modified, the gun would be 21.5 to 22".
I also want to have the loop cut down from the BIG loop to the wedge loop like the Randall mares leg. This makes for a slimer top to bottom for a custom scabbard, and adds some extra room for gloves in the loop without the huge loop.
I can probably get by with that much. Also put on shorter sites just for drawing it from a back scabbard.
I feel that for the cash, I can do a lot of custom work to make it my weapon.
Can anyone here tell me what the Federal regs are on for length on this type of gun to keep it a legal handgun?
I ordered it back in Aug. Long time for that kind of money to sit. But, I hope to be glad I did.
Now, I am researching the Federal laws on a lever action handgun.
I had read that the total length had to be 24". But NOT a legal reference, just anecdotal.
I want to cut the stock down to put it at the size the one Josh Randall had. If you look at it the RH is about two inches longer. Why, I don't know unless the 24" rule is true.
With the stock cut and the butt plate modified, the gun would be 21.5 to 22".
I also want to have the loop cut down from the BIG loop to the wedge loop like the Randall mares leg. This makes for a slimer top to bottom for a custom scabbard, and adds some extra room for gloves in the loop without the huge loop.
I can probably get by with that much. Also put on shorter sites just for drawing it from a back scabbard.
I feel that for the cash, I can do a lot of custom work to make it my weapon.
Can anyone here tell me what the Federal regs are on for length on this type of gun to keep it a legal handgun?
OK. If you bought a RANCH HAND, as opposed to a rifle-length Rossi levergun, your gun is already set up legally as a handgun.
That means you can shorten the stock further, no problem. You can shorten the barrel if you want, or lengthen it to 15".
You must stay UNDER 26" overall and UNDER a 16" barrel to keep it inside of handgun specs, and you cannot add a real shoulder stock.
Now, the BATFE is on record as saying a bone-stock Ranch Hand is a handgun. Personally, I think BATFE *might* change their minds at some point, because there's some vestigial "shoulder stock" left. If you chopped what's left of that off and retained the grip only in the area above the lever, in many ways the gun would be somewhat handier in my opinion. Doing that mod isn't just legal, it would make the gun "more legal".
If you DO add a shoulder stock you would also have to add a barrel of 16" or more, turning it fully into a rifle. If you want a longer barrel but no shoulder stock, that would be legal so long as your overall length was greater than 26", which means adding a 16" barrel wouldn't cut it but adding a 20" or so almost certainly will. (A rifle doesn't actually have to have a shoulder stock as long as it makes the 26" overall length.)
BATFE has said that if you convert a handgun to a rifle, you can never convert it back even if you're the same person who bought it as a handgun. Personally, I don't think they can make that stick. In one case they did back down: you can buy a Center single-shot frame and own both handgun and long-gun length barrels and both a handgun grip and a rifle stock. When you assemble the gun you have to set it up fully as a rifle or fully as a handgun, but you are legal either way as long as you bought the core frame as a handgun. Again: BATFE is on record supporting this. There's no reason for them to claim otherwise when we're talking about rifle and handgun swaps back and forth on a handgun Ranch Hand frame.
THESE ARE THE FEDERAL RULES AS I PERSONALLY UNDERSTAND THEM! I don't *think* any particular state laws will conflict with the Ranch Hand concept, except it's always possible a given state will decide there's enough "shoulder stock" left on a Ranch Hand to make it a short barreled rifle (illegal configuration). Yet again, taking another 3" or whatever off the back should fix that.
That means you can shorten the stock further, no problem. You can shorten the barrel if you want, or lengthen it to 15".
You must stay UNDER 26" overall and UNDER a 16" barrel to keep it inside of handgun specs, and you cannot add a real shoulder stock.
Now, the BATFE is on record as saying a bone-stock Ranch Hand is a handgun. Personally, I think BATFE *might* change their minds at some point, because there's some vestigial "shoulder stock" left. If you chopped what's left of that off and retained the grip only in the area above the lever, in many ways the gun would be somewhat handier in my opinion. Doing that mod isn't just legal, it would make the gun "more legal".
If you DO add a shoulder stock you would also have to add a barrel of 16" or more, turning it fully into a rifle. If you want a longer barrel but no shoulder stock, that would be legal so long as your overall length was greater than 26", which means adding a 16" barrel wouldn't cut it but adding a 20" or so almost certainly will. (A rifle doesn't actually have to have a shoulder stock as long as it makes the 26" overall length.)
BATFE has said that if you convert a handgun to a rifle, you can never convert it back even if you're the same person who bought it as a handgun. Personally, I don't think they can make that stick. In one case they did back down: you can buy a Center single-shot frame and own both handgun and long-gun length barrels and both a handgun grip and a rifle stock. When you assemble the gun you have to set it up fully as a rifle or fully as a handgun, but you are legal either way as long as you bought the core frame as a handgun. Again: BATFE is on record supporting this. There's no reason for them to claim otherwise when we're talking about rifle and handgun swaps back and forth on a handgun Ranch Hand frame.
THESE ARE THE FEDERAL RULES AS I PERSONALLY UNDERSTAND THEM! I don't *think* any particular state laws will conflict with the Ranch Hand concept, except it's always possible a given state will decide there's enough "shoulder stock" left on a Ranch Hand to make it a short barreled rifle (illegal configuration). Yet again, taking another 3" or whatever off the back should fix that.
My Chiappa .44-40 Bounty Hunter has an OAL of 23 inches, one inch shorter in the stock than the Rossi.
It will remain the way it is.
My Rossi has an OAL of 24 inches. I bought it to shorten at both ends, more in line with the Randall/WDOA TV version.
Shortening either one at either end, already type-classified as a handgun as Jim explained, is perfectly legal.
You'd only get into potential trouble if you LENGTHENED either end to place the gun into Class III territory.
Denis
It will remain the way it is.
My Rossi has an OAL of 24 inches. I bought it to shorten at both ends, more in line with the Randall/WDOA TV version.
Shortening either one at either end, already type-classified as a handgun as Jim explained, is perfectly legal.
You'd only get into potential trouble if you LENGTHENED either end to place the gun into Class III territory.
Denis
Ok, help me understand. How would lengthening the barrel cause legal issues? Let's say you, for some unknown reason, want to put a 20in. barrel on a Ranch Hand. Since it was originally manufactured as a handgun, what category would it fall under? I would think it would not be a "weapon made from a rifle" or "weapon made from a shotgun." Since it has no stock, it is not a rifle.
thanx guys, I sorta thought that "24"" thing may not have been correct.
And shortening the stock to look like a combo of these two guns.
Short stock on the top one, and the wedge lever on the bottom.
I am looking for a seperate lever to have modded and have a case hardened finish (I can do the stock, myself).
Would a regular Rossi 92 lever work on the ranch hand?
I did find this guy for some new sights, and a couple of parts.
http://store.stevesgunz.com/
and here's a really cut down model. If I think it would not hurt the RH, I may look at cutting down the barrel, don't know, yet.
This is ONE of the Josh Randall mare laigs. One of the other ones they used on the show has the wedge loop I like, this one is too rectangular for my tastes.
And look at how short the barrel is!
Anyway, thanx again, I will at least cut down my stock, it's an easy mod.
Oh. and here is the Randall wedge lever I was talking about.
And shortening the stock to look like a combo of these two guns.
Short stock on the top one, and the wedge lever on the bottom.
I am looking for a seperate lever to have modded and have a case hardened finish (I can do the stock, myself).
Would a regular Rossi 92 lever work on the ranch hand?
I did find this guy for some new sights, and a couple of parts.
http://store.stevesgunz.com/
and here's a really cut down model. If I think it would not hurt the RH, I may look at cutting down the barrel, don't know, yet.
This is ONE of the Josh Randall mare laigs. One of the other ones they used on the show has the wedge loop I like, this one is too rectangular for my tastes.
And look at how short the barrel is!
Anyway, thanx again, I will at least cut down my stock, it's an easy mod.
Oh. and here is the Randall wedge lever I was talking about.
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Raimius,
As the gun comes, ATF has bought off on the "handgun" designation.
I said "potentially" about problems in extending the barrel, refering to beyond 16 inches.
Somebody along the line, either federally or locally, could later decide that puts it beyond the handgun category & into a defacto attempt to turn it into a Class III weapon.
Remember that just because it's OK with the Feds doesn't mean it's OK with local LE.
It's unlikely, but since the concept is already pretty close to the line, and the extra inch of stock over the Chiappa does allow an inefficient but do-able use in firing from the shoulder on the Rossi, the possibility exists.
Lengthening the other end to make it a true shoulder-fired "carbine" would take it into an SBR designation.
Denis
As the gun comes, ATF has bought off on the "handgun" designation.
I said "potentially" about problems in extending the barrel, refering to beyond 16 inches.
Somebody along the line, either federally or locally, could later decide that puts it beyond the handgun category & into a defacto attempt to turn it into a Class III weapon.
Remember that just because it's OK with the Feds doesn't mean it's OK with local LE.
It's unlikely, but since the concept is already pretty close to the line, and the extra inch of stock over the Chiappa does allow an inefficient but do-able use in firing from the shoulder on the Rossi, the possibility exists.
Lengthening the other end to make it a true shoulder-fired "carbine" would take it into an SBR designation.
Denis
Right. "SBR" means "Short Barrelled Rifle", which means bigtime federal paperwork.
You CAN legally own a "short stocked rifle", so long as the gun makes the minimum 26" spec for a rifle. Which is why a 16" barrel might be trouble (or it might not if the length works out!) while a 20" fr'instance should be no problem at all.
Put another way: you could legally buy a 20" barrel levergun and shorten the stock way down to be similar to a Mare's Laig, as long as the gun still made 26" overall. You'd probably be OK with an 18" barrel. 16", probably not.
There's no legal problem converting a Ranch Hand into a rifle, as long as you "go all the way" and put in both legal specs for a rifle: 16" barrel, 26" overall.
You CAN legally own a "short stocked rifle", so long as the gun makes the minimum 26" spec for a rifle. Which is why a 16" barrel might be trouble (or it might not if the length works out!) while a 20" fr'instance should be no problem at all.
Put another way: you could legally buy a 20" barrel levergun and shorten the stock way down to be similar to a Mare's Laig, as long as the gun still made 26" overall. You'd probably be OK with an 18" barrel. 16", probably not.
There's no legal problem converting a Ranch Hand into a rifle, as long as you "go all the way" and put in both legal specs for a rifle: 16" barrel, 26" overall.
DPris, local laws make a difference. I'm sure you could find some legislator who would call it a machine gun...like how an 92fs is a "machine gun" to DC...
If we are just worried about the ATF, they have already decided it is a handgun. (Yes, they can change their minds, but I don't think that is likely, as the "Mare's leg" idea has been around a while.)
If we are just worried about the ATF, they have already decided it is a handgun. (Yes, they can change their minds, but I don't think that is likely, as the "Mare's leg" idea has been around a while.)
travelerj71
Inactive
the ranch hand(Mares leg Pistol)
I am very interested in purchasing one. I want to see it being shot and I would like to see how accurate this is. I am curious if it is more accurate than the average pistol. Would someone send me target shooting vid or link thereof to witness this piece in action.
I am very interested in purchasing one. I want to see it being shot and I would like to see how accurate this is. I am curious if it is more accurate than the average pistol. Would someone send me target shooting vid or link thereof to witness this piece in action.
Rossi Ranch Hand Scabbard
we just wanted to share a pic of a scabbard designed for the Rossi Ranch Hand.
Here is the link:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2w7xXMC03uYMfCvEVDq1Gg?feat=directlink
we just wanted to share a pic of a scabbard designed for the Rossi Ranch Hand.
Here is the link:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2w7xXMC03uYMfCvEVDq1Gg?feat=directlink
Biff Tannen
New member
Practical? Nah...
Cool? Yep.
I say this: anyone who can't at least appreciate the "cool" factor might wanna consider loosening up, just a tad
.
Tell you what, here's a practical use: If you're into trench coats, use it for your CC piece. Imagine pulling this on a BG? You'd stop him without pulling the trigger because he'd be busy making a big old mess in his pants!
Guess I'd get one in 357 / 38 to make it cheaper to shoot.
I'd never take this to the indoor range, though. This is a tin-can shooter. Again, just a fun gun.
Cool? Yep.
I say this: anyone who can't at least appreciate the "cool" factor might wanna consider loosening up, just a tad
.Tell you what, here's a practical use: If you're into trench coats, use it for your CC piece. Imagine pulling this on a BG? You'd stop him without pulling the trigger because he'd be busy making a big old mess in his pants!
Guess I'd get one in 357 / 38 to make it cheaper to shoot.
I'd never take this to the indoor range, though. This is a tin-can shooter. Again, just a fun gun.
Finally got the .45 Colt Rossi to the pit two days ago.
Fired five commercial loads. Two caboy, one Federal 225 LSWCHP, and two CorBon +P.
Off a rest, the gun can hold under three inches at 25 yards. Not quite as tight as my Chiappa version.
It is not practical to shoot with anything like the heavy CorBons, and trust me- you do not want it anywhere near your face with them.
This one's off to be bobbed on Monday, after which it'll never again see anything hotter than 250 at 900 FPS.
Denis
Fired five commercial loads. Two caboy, one Federal 225 LSWCHP, and two CorBon +P.
Off a rest, the gun can hold under three inches at 25 yards. Not quite as tight as my Chiappa version.
It is not practical to shoot with anything like the heavy CorBons, and trust me- you do not want it anywhere near your face with them.
This one's off to be bobbed on Monday, after which it'll never again see anything hotter than 250 at 900 FPS.
Denis
I just read the article on the NRA web page, then looked into this gun.
I figured that I should check on Firingline to see if there were any posts about it and just found this one.
I understand everyone's pros and cons, and I side with the "fun" posts.
I have reached the point in my gun collection, that I can now buy a gun just for the fun part.
My next gun will be this little Ranch Hand.
Any lever action gets me fired up, and I can go back to my childhood days with a real Dead or Alive gun, instead of my toy one that I terrorized my old neighborhood with.
Eric
I figured that I should check on Firingline to see if there were any posts about it and just found this one.
I understand everyone's pros and cons, and I side with the "fun" posts.
I have reached the point in my gun collection, that I can now buy a gun just for the fun part.
My next gun will be this little Ranch Hand.
Any lever action gets me fired up, and I can go back to my childhood days with a real Dead or Alive gun, instead of my toy one that I terrorized my old neighborhood with.
Eric
Ranch Hand and Motorcycles
An old Josh Randall fan myself, I think this would look great in a long holster/scabbard attached to the side of a motorcycle. However, you're stuck next to the bike. Can't take it into the store when you stop, and don't want to leave it out there. Not to mention all the vehicle storage laws that are already blurry enough on a bike. Would have to be an open-carry pistol state, and be prepared to explain that it is indeed a pistol.
Still, I want one!
An old Josh Randall fan myself, I think this would look great in a long holster/scabbard attached to the side of a motorcycle. However, you're stuck next to the bike. Can't take it into the store when you stop, and don't want to leave it out there. Not to mention all the vehicle storage laws that are already blurry enough on a bike. Would have to be an open-carry pistol state, and be prepared to explain that it is indeed a pistol.
Still, I want one!
Scabbard
I have had my RH in 44 Mag since Jan.
I have a Winchester 94AE in 44, and a S&W 929, 4" in 44.
I don't want a belt holster as I am a short man with love handles.
I actually got it to back pack.
I have Bug Out Gear back pack. I just sent a drawing off to a holster maker to maker a scabbard to fit on the sides of the pack. It will have front and back straps to mount it on either side. These straps can also be used, in a pinch, as belt loops, and a thigh cord strap. there will be a thumb strap style release to hold the RH into the holster. And snapped on both sides to, again, be used from either side. The thumb strap will cross over the hammer.
The scabbard will be strapped onto the pack so that the butt and thumb strap will be accessible by reaching over the shoulder to un sheath.
The scabbard will protect the hammer, and to the rear of the trigger guard. But the finger loop will be open. I may have a "hinged" cover for the loop put on later, so I will have the hardware put on.
I will post a pic when it's completed, maybe by June.
The reason I won't do it now is because I WILL change the finger lever to the DOA wedge shaped loop. The 3/4 big loop is just too big for me. So any cover I have made will not fit the new lever.
I need to find someone that either makes these levers, or can recurve the stock one. I have not had a lot of luck with this, but will eventually.
Steve's guns, where I am going to buy a new rear sight and the tuneup kit pretty soon, wants a LOT of money and a year to do the project.
We'll see.
In the meantime, if anyone knows where I can get the "wedge" loop right now, please let me know.
The one I want in in the image a few posts above.
I have had my RH in 44 Mag since Jan.
I have a Winchester 94AE in 44, and a S&W 929, 4" in 44.
I don't want a belt holster as I am a short man with love handles.
I actually got it to back pack.
I have Bug Out Gear back pack. I just sent a drawing off to a holster maker to maker a scabbard to fit on the sides of the pack. It will have front and back straps to mount it on either side. These straps can also be used, in a pinch, as belt loops, and a thigh cord strap. there will be a thumb strap style release to hold the RH into the holster. And snapped on both sides to, again, be used from either side. The thumb strap will cross over the hammer.
The scabbard will be strapped onto the pack so that the butt and thumb strap will be accessible by reaching over the shoulder to un sheath.
The scabbard will protect the hammer, and to the rear of the trigger guard. But the finger loop will be open. I may have a "hinged" cover for the loop put on later, so I will have the hardware put on.
I will post a pic when it's completed, maybe by June.
The reason I won't do it now is because I WILL change the finger lever to the DOA wedge shaped loop. The 3/4 big loop is just too big for me. So any cover I have made will not fit the new lever.
I need to find someone that either makes these levers, or can recurve the stock one. I have not had a lot of luck with this, but will eventually.
Steve's guns, where I am going to buy a new rear sight and the tuneup kit pretty soon, wants a LOT of money and a year to do the project.
We'll see.
In the meantime, if anyone knows where I can get the "wedge" loop right now, please let me know.
The one I want in in the image a few posts above.
Scabbard, unless someone chimes in with a custom maker of those wedge levers, you might check with someone (Steve/NKJ, other) to see if the Chiappa unit will swap.
http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma_BH-M87.html.
If a regular lever will cross-swap--dunno--these should.
http://www.legacysports.com/products/puma_BH-M87.html.
If a regular lever will cross-swap--dunno--these should.
I had tried Legacy Sports, but they had none to sell.
However, they did send me a # for Chiappa Firearms 937-854-1040.
So, I will call them this week.
Here's hoping.
Oh, and for another scabbard, I emailed here and got a response. They said they could do the same scabbard, just needed the length of the RH.
I am still waiting for my custom project to be evaluated (just sent diagram off last week) and if I can get it for approx the same as that scabbard, I will go with it. Otherwise, I will go with Cochise Leather.
However, they did send me a # for Chiappa Firearms 937-854-1040.
So, I will call them this week.
Here's hoping.
Oh, and for another scabbard, I emailed here and got a response. They said they could do the same scabbard, just needed the length of the RH.
I am still waiting for my custom project to be evaluated (just sent diagram off last week) and if I can get it for approx the same as that scabbard, I will go with it. Otherwise, I will go with Cochise Leather.
MashieNiblick
Moderator
some of the Texas Rangers working the ranch land of south texas used to carry firearms similar to this type at the turn of the 20th century. i have seen pictures in a museum
perfect firearm for gunwork in scrub brush
easy to spin, point, possibly aim, and fire. on horseback or by foot
good for rattle snakes, javajalinas, bores, banditos- you name it
- MN
perfect firearm for gunwork in scrub brush
easy to spin, point, possibly aim, and fire. on horseback or by foot
good for rattle snakes, javajalinas, bores, banditos- you name it
- MN