Ron Paul, Dr. No-body, beats Rudy and Fred--again

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Look y'all- if you don't like Ron Paul, that's fine. It doesn't matter to me who you vote for.

You guys seriously don't get it. It's not Paul that we don't like, it's the stridency, histrionics, and threats of his supporters.

It breeds animosity. I have met Dr. Paul on a few occasions. He's a nice, accessible guy. His supporters, on the other hand, do nothing but hurt his chances.
 
It's not Paul that we don't like, it's the stridency, histrionics, and threats of his supporters.

Yes perhaps we are stident, it comes fom being drowned out and marginalized by the neo-conservative spin machine.

You can rest assured there is nothing fake or put on about our sentiments as far as the current leadership and direction of the GOP are concerned.

If by threats you are referring to us voting for the libertarian candidate or not voting.

Those are promises.

We are tired as one poster said "of being complicit" in the downfall of America.
 
I want Paul to win.

I want his policies to influence his administration.

Ron Paul is a excellent and honorable man and subscribes to George Washington's demonstrably accurate noninterventionist international policy stance. Ron Paul has an excellent domestic policy stance. I want those perspectives to expose the rest of the field as being to the left. Rudy McRomney and friends would be wise to become true leftists again, that's where they're most comfortable.

True conservatives are noninterventionists, leftists have always favored foreign interventionism.
 
If it ends up costing the Republican party the presidential election, maybe they will make a return to the conservative ideas and principles that garnered our support and got them in elected.

BINGO!!! Frankly I am tired of the party I had supported turning into the one I opposed. Out of control spending, entitlement programs, nation building... If I had wanted those I could have voted for Gore in 2000.

I also am not going to give into the scare tactics that the right are using to get us to vote for Rudy or Mitt. "But if Hillary wins she might replace a retiring Ginsburg with... Ginsburg!" Grow a pair. The Dems in the minority with the assistance of the sell out McCain managed to force Bush to tow their line with court appointees. There is no reason we can't do the same, even with a minority. Bottom line is it might take some militant minority political warfare to whip the Reps back into fighting shape and if that means loosing control of the Executive and Legislative so be it. It was 1994 when we gave congress to the Reps, it was a time when they were what they still should be. If they are not going to be who we elected them to be let's put them back into the same position they were for the first two years under Clinton. THEN they may get the message!
 
Frankly I am tired of the party I had supported turning into the one I opposed. Out of control spending, entitlement programs, nation building... If I had wanted those I could have voted for Gore in 2000.

Amen to that...........
 
i have a suggestion. stop calling the neo-cons neo-cons, and call them what they are creating. Facists.

Starting back in the 1920's, socialists and communists realized they had no chance of making an impact in America. But they did realize they could take advantage of low level elections, such as school boards, city councils, etc., and over time they could gain influence. They also found other "outsider" groups that were being marginalized, and reached accords with these groups, and they all became "democrats". These other groups are those that push for alternative lifestyles, environmentalists, etc. These people made up a very very small number but focused on the lowest level of politics, where NO BODY shows up to vote. In those elections, sometimes where only 1000 people vote, if they have 100 people out of that 1000 participating, they completely changed elections that would have been very close otherwise. By the 60's, they'd begun to reach critical mass within the Democratic party, as well as they'd gotten so deep into our education system, that the ideals America was created on were not necessarily what was taught to the kids of that day.

Eventually, their people had enough power that they removed traditional democrats from power within the party, and today, just about anyone can see that the leadership of the DP are extreme socialists, and supporters of ONLY fringe groups. Does no one find that odd? Same with the ACLU, do they ever support a non-fringe cause? I can't think of the last time the ACLU stood up for a traditional viewpoint in this country.

And if you don't think this is an accurate account of the DP, ask why Zell Miller, a LIFETIME Democrat, would speak about taking back his party at the RNC!! He didn't say he was a Republican, he asked his fellow Democrats, those who supported the OLD DP and not the socialist version of today, to vote Repub. so the power of the socialists could be weakened. He was calling on those like himself to abandon the DP aggressively enough to kill the power of those in power, so traditional Dems could get back in control of the party.

Now, in the RP, it's evident Facists have taken the same steps. They packaged themselves in Traditional Conservative speak, but haven't voted consistently that way. They have garnered incredible support from corporations, and have pretty obviously been allowing changes in our laws that allow large conglomerate corporations, foreign ownership of our lands, the merging of media/news outlets with big business, such that now it's obvious to just about anyone that pays attention that the news is constantly slanted by parent company, especially if a story could hurt the bottom line. Fascism is merging Big Business and Government. Rumsfeld is a big supporter of this. Look at what he did with the military. His privatization movement wasn't anything other than taking civil servant and other government jobs and pushing for direct private replacement of those. There's no cost savings, but worse, no more oversight. Now, that defense contractor hires his own Project managers to oversee his product. Before, the CS from the government, who was not beholden to the contractor, oversaw the contract and their job was to make sure the contractor was being diligent.

As long as "those" people get ousted, I'm not worried. If the next R candidate wants to keep these power "neo-con fascists", that I'd have a problem with.

And here's another problem just as big. The Federal Reserve. It's the source of power for these people. Did you know Rumsfeld used to run the World Bank? And that the only area of the world the IMF and World Bank don't control is the middle east? ? Did you know the Federal Reserve is a private bank, not a Government agency?? So a bank prints our money, and "sells" it to our Government with interest. Why are we PAYING for our own money? How absurdly stupid is that?? And considering the FR ownership is unknown, how does one keep tabs on them? And, who really runs the country? Congress, the President, or the FR?? Well, consider that Congress can't do anything without Money, and the President can't do anything without Congress, what happens if Congress goes against the wishes of the FR? They aren't beholden to give Congress money whenever Congress asks. They can easily say no, you are pushing an agenda we do not like, so we won't be printing extra money for your programs, and we're going to raise the interest rates to boot. It's actually quite scary to think about. And until we return to a gold standard, and get control of our money back within the Government, I don't see these issues ever changing.
 
What would neo-conservatives like to be called?

There needs to be a term that differentiates Goldwater conservatives (ie paleoconservatives) from Bush conservatives (neoconservatives). Everyone does see differences in the two groups I hope.

Why is neoconservative derogatory, and paleoconservative is ok?

It's not Paul that we don't like, it's the stridency, histrionics, and threats of his supporters.

So you are saying you won't vote for someone because of his supporters? You do realize you would be voting just for Ron Paul and not anyone else. If more "normal" people would vote for Paul (such as yourself, I am sure), wouldn't that change the make up of his supporters? That just has to be the weirdest reason I have ever heard not to vote for someone.
 
And here's another problem just as big. The Federal Reserve. It's the source of power for these people. Did you know Rumsfeld used to run the World Bank? And that the only area of the world the IMF and World Bank don't control is the middle east? ? Did you know the Federal Reserve is a private bank, not a Government agency?? So a bank prints our money, and "sells" it to our Government with interest. Why are we PAYING for our own money? How absurdly stupid is that?? And considering the FR ownership is unknown, how does one keep tabs on them? And, who really runs the country? Congress, the President, or the FR?? Well, consider that Congress can't do anything without Money, and the President can't do anything without Congress, what happens if Congress goes against the wishes of the FR? They aren't beholden to give Congress money whenever Congress asks. They can easily say no, you are pushing an agenda we do not like, so we won't be printing extra money for your programs, and we're going to raise the interest rates to boot. It's actually quite scary to think about. And until we return to a gold standard, and get control of our money back within the Government, I don't see these issues ever changing.

There it is in a nutshell.

WildtheconspiracytheoryofpoliticsAlaska TM
 
wheh!!!!

I started reading this thread, then realized I needed to go put some boots on for all the crap being thrown around and a tin-foil hat for these neo-con conspiracies.

Come on people, on both sides of RP...this is just getting old.

RP supporters, you are obstinate and for the right reasons, but your obstinance is blocking your view of larger issues.

RP detractors, most if not all of you have no problem with the man, just his supporters, accept the fact they will not waiver and move on.

Either way, we are going to get something none of us want, an election with a leftist on both sides of the ticket and a third party candidate stealing votes for the "best" candidate out of the choices.
 
"No I didnt say that, so don't put words in my mouth."

I didn't put words in your mouth.

Those are MY words that I'm using to describe the supposed hurt feelings that some in the Ron Paul camp are allegedly suffering.
 
The reason RP's coming in ahead of Thompson and Gulliani is significant is that both candidates have had alot more media exposure than Paul, most of it free.

Patently false. Since the start of the election Paul has gotten just as much media exposure asn any of the other candidates. He's been in all but one national debate. He's had numerous interviews on all of the cable news stations, and even had an entire program just devoted to interviewing him.

His name may not have been as well known as the others, but that is not the same thing as having media exposure.



The Gulliani campaign is broke and if Fred Thompson does not win SC he will not have the funds to continue.

Are you a guliani staffer? Do you have access to their funds or are you just guestimating?


Ron Paul has millions upon millions in his war chest and can continue until the convention if he so desires.

And what has this small fortune got him. The best he's done in 4 primaries is 4th place. Its even more dismal considering he hasn't broke 7% of the vote. Money is great, but as someone (me) said some time ago when all you Paul folks were so excited about blimps bombs and tea parties, money doesn't translate into votes.

Case in point.



His supporters are made up of people who have watched a President and congress(now in the minority) that they supported and helped get elected move farther and farther away from the ideas and values they hold dear.

So have most of the rest of us. Paul supporters don't have a monopoly on dissatisfaction of where the country is going.


Enough is enough our objections will be heard.

Scream them to the heavens. Just don't send the nation even farther into the hole while doing it.


If it ends up costing the Republican party the presidential election, maybe they will make a return to the conservative ideas and principles that garnered our support and got them in elected.

And here is where you miss the point. The true constitutional power in this country lies with the supreme court. A single opinion binds both congress and the executive. In your desire to stick it to the republicans, you will end up destroying this country.

You see, even if your plan works, and the republicans wise up after 8 or maybe even 4 years, we will still have a court full of liberal nominees. A Ron Paul as president and a congress full of Ron Paul's can't undo SCOTUS decisions. We are still trying to fight things like the NFA and GCA. We are still trying to get a reasonable definition of the commerce clause.

So in reality what will happen is that we will have a republican party that you are perfectly happy with in an situation where they can't do a damn thing to change the nation. All because you wanted to "send a message".
 
Giuliani is feeling the squeeze-LATimes

Alright Stage2 lets get right to the heart of your contention the SCOTUS.

Can you honestly expect us to believe that McCain or Romney are going to appoint constructionists to the court?

Does the Gang of 14 ring a bell?

I'm I supposed to forget all of the things McCain has done on the off chance he might appoint a moderate to the court?
 
So have most of the rest of us. Paul supporters don't have a monopoly on dissatisfaction of where the country is going.

I have no doubt that that is true.

Although as far as I can tell were the only ones trying to change things.

Every other candidate in the field is bent on continuing down the same path.
 
And here is where you miss the point. The true constitutional power in this country lies with the supreme court. A single opinion binds both congress and the executive. In your desire to stick it to the republicans, you will end up destroying this country.

You see, even if your plan works, and the republicans wise up after 8 or maybe even 4 years, we will still have a court full of liberal nominees. A Ron Paul as president and a congress full of Ron Paul's can't undo SCOTUS decisions. We are still trying to fight things like the NFA and GCA. We are still trying to get a reasonable definition of the commerce clause.

So in reality what will happen is that we will have a republican party that you are perfectly happy with in an situation where they can't do a damn thing to change the nation. All because you wanted to "send a message".
__________________


QFFT!


THe message a loss will send to the GOP won't matter at all. The damage done by Hillary or Obama through SCOTUS appointees will be lasting and complete. Lets say RP supporters send their message and the GOP losses in 08. Then the GOP takes a long hard look at itself and decides to run a truly conservative candidate in 12. And lets say that they even WIN in 12. Does that do anything at all to change the SCOTUS appointees that will happen during Obama's or Hillary's term??? Of course not. We're stuck with it. And the next 2A case or nanny state case that goes in front of the SC will most assuredly go against us.



It's a pretty simple concept:

The Supreme Court wields the true power in America.

The President controls who is on the Supreme Court

Hillary or Obama will most definitely appoint the most liberal big government justices they can.

What are you going to do to stop that from happening?
 
And here is where you miss the point. The true constitutional power in this country lies with the supreme court. A single opinion binds both congress and the executive. In your desire to stick it to the republicans, you will end up destroying this country.

As I said before, this is the exact scare tactic those who would want us to vote for a Liberal Republican use all the time... "But THE COURT!!!" Well I already held my nose and voted for Bush a second time because of the court and am not doing so again. Big deal if Ginsberg retires, so Hillary can replace her with what? Do you really believe someone more leftist can be nominated than her? Gulianni has already tempered his "constructionist" SCOTUS statements with comments about respect for precedent... He is a prosecutor and wants someone who will allow other prosecutors to be more effective in locking people up. That does not equate to respecting the clearly written words of the COTUS even though he calls himself a Republican.

You would have us continue to reward a party which has sold out its core ideals for fear that we might loose the chance to nominate a SCOTUS justice while ignoring one key factor. If the person we put into the White House is nothing but a RINO who won because we sold out our own ideals to split the Dem vote why would you expect them to really nominate a constructionist?

No, the only thing we demonstrate by voting for a Rudy or Romney is that we will vote for anyone in order to win. It is those who suggest any liberal republican is better than Hillary or Obama who are helping to kill this party.

The SCOTUS is important, very important, but like a ship at sea there is no point in spending all your time and effort manning the pumps when the ship is on fire. Our party is burning down around us because it has no ideals or core. More appropriately its ideals and core have turned into uncontrolled deficit spending, mass betrayal of American manufacturing, nation building, and unlimited cheap and illegal landscapers and construction workers. It got that way because first we were sold a bill of goods about "Compassionate Conservatism" (don't hear that phrase any more) and then by the need to "Stay the Course" and "Save the SCOTUS".

I got news for you, those who are not willing to make a stand now and stop the destruction of this party will NEVER make the stand. They will always find a reason it is more important to sell out our ideals for "just this next election" rather than risk taking a loss today for winning in the long term.

There is a large core of republicans who are in no better situation than the African American vote. They (most, not all and while they are a race I am referring to their history as a voting demographic) have been convinced that nothing could be worse than a Republican in office. As a result they almost always vote Democratic. The leadership of the Democratic party knows this and as a result does nothing more than toss them a small bone now and then. They hold no real weight in party politics within the DNC for deciding policy because the leadership knows they will go nowhere else. The result is while Hillary must be careful now she knows if she wins the primaries she can just make some visits to turn out the vote but need not fear them ever going anywhere else.

Rudy and his ilk are counting on people to sell themselves out and vote for him rather than do anything else. They are counting on your fear to make you do what they want. Like a school bully who knows a kid is so frightened of being hit he will do anything to avoid it they control you. Sometimes though you need to take the hit in order to be free. You may not win today, I know as a short, brainy, heavy kid in school I lost a fair share of physical altercations. At the same time when they know you will not roll over the relationship changes. We need to change our relationship with our party and it may mean taking a hit to do so. If not now then when?

Sorry, but if you are not brave enough to take the hit now, when the complete selling out of the republican party is at hand, then I say you are never brave enough!
 
The President controls who is on the Supreme Court

Which is why the President had to cut a deal with the Legislature to get any nominations through when his own party held the majority.

Wake up people.
 
Alright Stage2 lets get right to the heart of your contention the SCOTUS.

Can you honestly expect us to believe that McCain or Romney are going to appoint constructionists to the court?

Does the Gang of 14 ring a bell?

I'm I supposed to forget all of the things McCain has done on the off chance he might appoint a moderate to the court?

Here's where you kill yourself. You and most of the other Paul supporters have said for MONTHS that the current crop of republicans is no different than Bush.

Well, Bush gave us Roberts and Alito. While they are still relatively new, both have strongly aligned themselves with Thomas and Scalia. So if they are no different than Bush, then we can expect a nominee similar to Roberts and Alito. Thats fine with me.

Now, are you going to sit here with a straight face and tell me that Hillary and Obama are going to nominate the same justices as a McCain, Romney or Huckabee? I don't think so.
 
If the person we put into the White House is nothing but a RINO who won because we sold out our own ideals to split the Dem vote why would you expect them to really nominate a constructionist?

Like I said above, a RINO got us Alito and Roberts. Thats fine with me.

Furthermore, you assume that Thomas and Scalia can outlast a democratic presidency, and that a republican would be elected afterwards. Thats not guaranteed.

You see, I'd rather have a republican replace Ginsburg and Kennedy, or Souter with a more conservative judge. Then we could get some great work done in a short time and it wouldn't matter who was elected for president.
 
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