Republicans denounce attack on Smith

Frank,

This will be my last post on this thread. We have covered all the points
and disagree. I have received e-mails to stop wrangling with you and
to be more considerate of Rich’s bandwidth and other TFLers’ patience.
So I’m giving you the last word. Don’t abuse it.

-------
To respond to your post for the record, Frank:
- I’m not a Democrat.
- I’m not anti-gun. So I will vote for neither of the two major parties.
- My views on sex are none of your business and irrelevant to our
discussion of gun control.
- I am against taxation - which means I am against both the
Democrats AND the Republicans.

Stick to gun control, Frank. Don’t make sideways implications you feel
you can deny under pressure. “Spirit of Debate”, Frank. You
understand.
-------

Now, for the entry we hope will be my last:

By forsaking their Republican ideals, these so-called Republicans left
us - you, me, millions of other voters (especially gun owners). All
they did was take the name with them.

Republican Party platform: They publicize their party platform
and then disregard it in the name of compromise. Senator Smith
explained that in his resignation speech.

((quote))
"We defend the constitutional right to keep and bear arms," says the
platform of the Republican Party, but vote after vote, day after day,
that right is eroded with Republican support. I announced my
intention to filibuster the gun control bill. Not only does it violate the
Republican platform, but it violates the Constitution itself, which I took
an oath to support and defend.

Then I hear my own party is planning to work with the other side to
allow more gun control to be steamrolled through the Congress which
violates our platform. Not only does it violate our platform, it insults
millions and millions of law-abiding peaceful gun owners in this
country whose rights we have an obligation to protect under the
Constitution.
((unquote))

For the entire speech, go to:
http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=12204&messageid=932023940

The Republican party is the second biggest gun control political
party in America. They are second only to the Democrats - with whom
the Republicans have guaranteed to compromise and to support
further gun control measures.
http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/Forum10/HTML/001196.html

I will not vote for gun control - even watered-down gun control.

Most Republicans want gun control just like the Democrats only the
Republicans don’t want to be caught in the act! So they call it
compromise. Their goals are so very similar I regard them as one
party - the Republocrats.

Any difference between the parties has become a matter of timing
rather than goals, policy, or vision. They both want to form a
paternalistic government to rule us as mere "subjects". They're
playing a national-level game of "good cop/bad cop" for the benefit of
those who fall for it.

So I am not splitting the Republican Party, Frank. I’m splitting the
Republocrat Party.

The Libertarians, or some other party, must fill the vacuum created
when the Republicans became Democrats.

You say that voting for gun rights guarantees a loss of gun rights?
Whether you vote Republican or Democrat you WILL lose gun
rights. If the Democrats do it faster than the Republicans,
perhaps Americans will awaken to the dangers of the Republocrats and
choose freedom rather than tyranny.

Besides, Frank, the frustrating part for me is that we could avoid all
this contention. If you and I joined with all other gun owners, we
could restore our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. Eighty million
gun owners would be an irresistible force! It is those who vote for the
Republocrats who are destroying America. I refuse to fall for the good
cop/bad cop crap yet again. I refuse to vote Republocrat as you
advocate.

I will vote for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 18, 1999).]
 
You are not going to get 80 million gun owners to vote similarly. You can't even get them to join the NRA in meaningfull numbers.

The republicans stopped the juvenile crime bill, they have done more since 1994 than anyone else to protect our gun rights. Gun owners sent the democrats PACKING in 1994. We can do it again in 2000 if we all vote republican.

If republicans choose to pass a gun control bill to keep criminals from getting guns at gun shows then I support them. I don't want criminals getting guns and neither does most of America.

When and if gun owners leave the republican party in droves and then suffer national registration, handgun licensing, bans on semi automatics, bans on saturday night specials, bans on sniper rifles, all, at the hands of the democrats, I want you to email me at varmints@earthlink.net and then tell me your principled stand was the right one.

You cut your own throat by voting third party. Let's not have a repeat of the Ross Perot fiasco. The only sensible course if for gun owners to stick together, vote republican and send the democrats packing!!

PS, I've been getting lots of email to keep at it, thank you!
 
So what? Let it happen. At least it would have a better chance to be resolved in my lifetime that in another few generations.

Frankly (no pun intended), I'm tired of the slow creep to total servitude.

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..."
 
I've looked for answers as to why America is where it is at today and the only logical conclusion I have been able to come up with is the effect of the liberal press, the American media.

Freedom of speech has been redefined to include all manner of perversion while other rights have suffered. That means the media has effected its opinion on the American people towards ultimate freedom of speech (in self interest) while disparaging and redefining other rights.

There has been a changing of attitudes, outlooks and opinions in America and one has to ask what has brought this about? What has been the cause of all this? Did it just happen on it's own or was there some causative factor at work?

The PIED PIPER, the media is beating the drum. It don't look good for our rights in the future. If you don't beleive that then look how the media has embarked on a campaign to demonize gun owners. No matter what image we may try to portray the media will make us out to be the bad guys responsible for things like Littelton.

Never mind the effect of violent television, movies and news. All the violence and killing is because gun owners seek to protect their rights. They will keep pounding away at that theme until people start to beleive it and take action. Just watch this upcoming presidential election. The media will make the gun issue a primary focus. It will be one of the big issues because the media will make it a big issue.

What is sad is there are a lot of people trying to get gun owners to vote third party for this coming election. If I were a democrat this would be just PERFECT. Divide the republican base by getting gun owners to vote third party, make the gun issue a primary focus for the next elections and then when the republicanc loose, spin the whole issue as a referendum on the gun control issue. This gives free reign for the democrats to really get the ball rolling against our gun rights.

If you are really concerned with the freedoms and rights Americans have traditionally enjoyed, then we need to totally destroy the democratic party. After that happens we can get going on a third party.

If there were to be a constitutional amendment to allow for a run-off presidential election if no one canditate wins a clear majority, then we could have a viable shot at a third party. I think it would remove from power both the republicans AND the democrats. Until that happens, the republican vote is your best bet. We've had 40 years of democrat party control of this country and you can see where it has gotten us. The republicans aren't strong enough to fight the democrats because they have only a razor thin margin of power and the media protects the democrats while demonizing republicans. What we need is another "1994 like" election where democrats were sent packing. It was due largely to the strenght of the gun vote after the assault weapons ban really pissed off the gun owners. We another election like that one to give the republicans a clear mandate. There is no other practicle way for us to preserve our gun rights.
 
Frank, we're not going to have another 1994 type election, where the Democrats get kicked out in favor of Republicans. It just isn't going to happen, and the reason is the same reason so many of us want to go third party: In 1994, Republicans promised to repeal the Brady Law, Repeal the "Assualt weapons" ban, and hold real, honest to goodness hearings about Waco and Ruby Ridge. They promised a lot of other things as well. THEY BROKE VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE PROMISE!
Hearings on Waco and Ruby ridge put off til AFTER the O.K. bombing. And systematically sabotoged, by letting Kerrie Jewel (SP?) commit perjury on live TV, by repudiating the aid of the NRA, by letting the FBI refuse to allow cruicial evidence to be examined by the same independent lab which conducted the Challenger investigation.

Do you recall a vote on whether or not to repeal the Brady law? I don't. Newt allowed one solitary vote on repealing the ban, too late in the '96 primaries for us to respond by supporting our allies and shafting our enemies, and so loaded down with poison pill provisions we would have been WORSE off if it had passed.

Then there's the Lautenberg and Kohl amendments, enacted with Republican votes, because the Republican leadership lied to their own caucus to prevent the bill from being debated on it's merits, maybe delaying their vacation. That's how much they cared about the Second amendment.

Of course most recently, the Juvenile crime bill was brought up for debate at the very height of the media propaganda campaign around Littleton. You think that was an ACCIDENT? That Lott, having achieved arguablely the second or third most powerful political position in the country, was such a tyro he didn't know the consequences of that timing?

And that's just the broken promises to US. They also betrayed the term limits crowd, by deliberately bringing multiple versions of the term limits amendment to the floor, so that each member could be able to vote for one version or another, without any of them getting enough votes to pass. Did the same thing to the ballanced budget amendment.


Of course, going back further I'm sure you remember that the Brady law was saved from defeat when the REPUBLICAN Senate leader arranged with the Democrats to secretly reconvene without a quorum present, and resurect the defeated bill. Doubtless you haven't forgot the way they carefully arranged bipartisan rules of debate for the Crime bill, so that our allies COULDN'T filibuster that one.

No, there's going to be no 1994 style revolution again, because nobody in their right mind believes any promise a Republican makes anymore!
 
Oh, and the Republicans did NOT stop the Juvenile crime bill; It's in conference committee as we speak, instead of being dead; They wouldn't let the fact that the House voted against any version at all of the bill stop them from proceeding, after all! Actually, the only thing which even delayed it is that the Republicans weren't quite ready to vote for a whole loaf, and the Democrats weren't willing to settle for a half loaf. The conference committee, which I GUARANTEE will be stacked with gun grabbers, will provide them with 3/4 of a loaf, and it may well pass.
 
You guys are arguing the minutea of politics..........that bit of symbolism over substence where perceptions are reality. The republicans have to appear as though they are doing something or possibly loose more votes than they would loose if all gun owners abandoned the republican party. If they were to have given the impression that they are doing nothing, then the media would have ripped them a new one. The liberal media is the root of many of our problems...like the root cause behind the evils of Littleton, Johnsborough, etc. Yet they have the hearts and minds of the American public. This is the arena we find ourselves in and you have to appear as though you are doing something or you will loose regardless. Yet the republicans have acheived some measure of success protecting our gun rights....despite the overwheliming power of the media in it's attempts to do away with second amendment rights and to demonize all gun owners as extremist wackos.

The solution to this problem is to hand the republicans an overwhelming, clear victory this next election cycle. Politicians need a clear understanding of the strenght of the gun vote in giving them a clear majority in the house, senate and presidency. With another 1994 like election it will prove the power of the gun vote. That clinton has done what he has done, that clinton has alienated many of his parties supporters gives us a clear advantage during the next presidential elections. Who is going to vote democratic after the clinton fiascos? It's time to rally the republican base and show a strong front against the debasement of American society and the destruction of our gun rights by democrats and their willing partners in the liberal press. Any other course of action further dooms our gun rights......not to mention all that is good and wholesome in America.

If you vote third party and the republicans win, then you have not given a mandate to the republicans to be more pro gun. Instead, you have shown that gun owners are not relevant and can safely be ignored. Go ahead and vote third party......but you are only hurting yourself and all us other gun owners.

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited July 19, 1999).]
 
Let me add to Chuck B's comment about this race being important because of supreme court appointments. This is everything, folks. Those guys and gals on the high court are appointed for life, and will determine the outcome of our rights and our country. There is currently an exremely important challenge in the 5th circuit (the doc in Houston who got lautenberged) which very well might go to the supremes. The court could conceivably go either way right now (quite possibly anti-RKBA), and you can rest assured that a Dem will appoint idiots with respect to RKBA, whereas a Repub appointment stands a far far greater chance of being pro-freedom and understanding what the second really means. If one of the old liberal farts croaks or retires, a Repub could appoint someone to join with Scalia and Thomas to pull the court back to recognizing the second in time for this particlular case to get there. O'Connor has always been reasonable and tries to be true to precedent, but she's a woman, and we all know women just sometimes don't get it about RKBA, so I don't have confidence in her. Certainly Ginsberg will be anti-freedom. Remember, it's kinda like playing poker where a straight beats three of a kind: One court case trumps a thousand legislative battles.
 
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