ok I made it back....sorry it took so long.....
Connieach,
Dont worry about the tirades that will come my way from libertarians for expressing my beliefs---I truly believe in my rights and theirs as well..besides I still have a flak jacket somewhere..lol...
<<I understand where you're coming from, but saying that Libs are responsible for Democratic victories is like saying gun owners are responsible for HCI. That argument don't wash.>>
On this point I suppose we will continue to disagree, I do believe that Perot took votes from bush and those votes were by people who were going to show the republican party and stick to there principle's regardless of the result of such action. How can that be denied with any creditability? If you dont think that a 3rd party in this election will elect a democratic president you are deceiving yourself. I also think that this point has to be trashed by the libertarians in order to gain voters---they cannot admit the results of an unsuccesful run for the presidency this time. You have to cloud it in rhetoric of statements like "I voted my counscience and I didnt vote for that guy so Im not responsible." Well I got news for ya, you will be responsible for taking that action and either failing to realize the consequences or not caring about the consequencences of your actions, there is no moral high ground in this fight it is win or lose...the democrats have to lose big in my opinion and fighting amongst ourselves will not bring that about.
<<You need to realize that the existing framework is FUBAR. It's time to tear down the dangerous edifice of our current system and start from a fresh blueprint. Working within the system is what's got us to this point.>>
I to think that our system is struggling, but it is a long way from fubar, You have some government your aware of that dosent have corruption and room for improvement? I take it the fresh blueprint is Libertarianism? What governments have had successful revolutions that led to a better govt then before....Im no scholar but I know of only one, America, there could be more do you know of any?
Ipeac,
<<Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall the Republicans have had control of both houses of Congress since '94. In that time, how many gun control laws did Congress vote to repeal? How many gun control laws passed, and were signed into law? Which number is greater?>>
They certainly have and did ok for a short period, then the relentless media attacks on the leadership and the damn stupidity of some of them folks was unbelievable...... when has any congress voted to repeal a gun law? Ideally, I like to see em all thrown out accept the founding documents.....I can try and sell ya on the fact that the republicans were out of power for so long blah blah blah,,,but the truth is they were and with the knowledge that they had they still screwed up royal...I dont give the press a pass here they are a bunch of socialist sob's in my book, but the democrats were capable of utilizing that ally to the destruction of the republican leadership..... think about this...we've got probably the lowest form of life on the planet in the whitehouse, his one redeeming feature to his supporters is that he is an incredible politician--when he first got elected I told a democrat I work with who was touting how great this guy was that he would be the downfall of the democratic party--Im hoping he still might be, I know he has been able with skillful manipulations of the positions of power in our govt to escape unscathed for all intents----and dont forget the democrats voted as a block during his impeachment and on most other things while those of us who are free thinking independent/republicans swapped sides....so we lost again.....clinton stays and we lose two senior house leaders.......lets vote out the bums that swapped sides--how about that?, Lets replace em with libertarians...I like that idea, they could win locally----remember all politics is local....
<<How many of the people running the ATF and FBI operations at Ruby Ridge and Waco were tried for their crimes by the Republican-controlled Congress after the hearings? How many were fired? How many got raises and promotions? Which number is greater?>>
I dont know.....Now lets see that would be the responsibility of the justice department to prosecute.....manned by Janet reno (pun Intended), who was appointed by the democratic president. That whole situation smells......
<<Coinneach is right, saying the Dems win because folks decide to vote other than Republican is poor reasoning. It is just as logical to say that if wasn't for anti-gun George the First stealing votes from Perot that Perot would have won.>>
Nope, I dont think he is....and here is why, if you look at the number of people that acutally vote, do you think that perot brought in new voters or did he just share voters from the existing pool of voters? If his voters were new then there should have been a huge difference in the number of people voting were there? I doubt it.
<<If the consequence of my voting is that I help one anti-BoR politician get elected, then I have chosen poorly and have made my own situation worse, not better.>>
I could make an argument here but I agree with you, conditionally. If my choice was between a democrat rabid anti bor, or someone of vassilated (republican from time to time), I would take the lesseer of the two to keep the other bum out....
the bumper stickers have been kicking around for a while I wanted to get some made to cover up the clowns who have those "ill take the credt..clinton/gore" and cover them with "Ill take the blame....clinton/gore",,,lol....
guttsmoke,
<<Now to Mr. Fubsy I can only add to what the others have said by adding that; could you please educate me on what makes you think by voting for the Republicans things will turn in our favor? Additionally, could you explain to me what is the difference between the Demos and the Repub? They both lie, steal and take more of our rights away.>>
Its a hard question for me to answer but Ill try.....do I think that by electing republicans things will change in our favor, I would certainly hope so but I doubt it. There not going to walk in and start making sweeping changes because they will not have carte blanche to do what they want, our govt was set up to move within a system of chks and balances which is often slow. I dont recall republicans being rabid after our rights, I dont know what they have initated on their own until lately that was anti 2nd amend. Im not for any gun laws. Its hard anymore to find that difference between them. Imo the primary problem we have within the republican party is the moderates the bush's (Im not a fan of jr either),etc, what use to be called the rockefeller republicans---with enuf conservatives elected to the republican party it would be possible to bring the party centered again, and no it will not happen overnight and there will be loses along the way. There are conservatives that exist with in the party and they should not be discarded with the anti-repub/pro-3rd party fevor, the only way congresscritters(tks ipeac), get to positions of power in the comittes of congress is through senority, thats a fact.
To me your last comment seems to imply that ""everyone does it"", I dont think everyone does.....
Johnaz & spartacus,
I think you would be responsible as well for falling on your sword instead of stopping that anti gun politician by a vote....jmo....
I want to thank Ya'll for a most enjoyable night, I apoligize for taking so long, work was rough and long this evening.
I get the impression that Libertarians seem to think that the govt is beyond help and politicians are all useless.....they definitely need help, they dont need abandonment. The Libertarians views are not everyones, if they were---would ya'll have to ferment discontent? You would already be in office, the reality that I see is that you can not win the presidency at this time, but work toward that goal just dont give the durn democrats a victory. Do you really think that if some miracle occurs that the libertarian president will be able to lead? Where is his support, what happens to your party when he fall's on his face because he has no support and everyone is out to get him?, you dont think politics is played that way.....remember newt.
I agree with nestor, in the preliminarys vote for your guy, but when it comes to the presidential vote, dont give it to the democrats.....guys/gals we need to win, I cant take 4 or 8 more years of this crap from these democrats with power unchecked, which is what will happen with a 3rd party. I dont think the republicans are the answer, not as they are now, I know the democrats arent and libertarins if I thought they could succeed Id be right there with ya, but I dont think they can........yet.
Ya'll have a good night its late and Im goin to sleep...fubsy.