Republicans denounce attack on Smith

Dear Frank,
Avoiding the temptation to give you an angry answer, I'll try to discuss your allegations if you will do the same.

Who is dividing the gun vote? The Democrats demand gun control. The Republicans compromise and we get gun control. A bit less perhaps than the Democrats wanted, but we are still losing. You can prove this by comparing what is required to buy guns and ammo in 1999 compared to 1959.

I am the enemy of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms? Think, Frank. Who is voting to repeal gun control laws? I am. Who is voting to continue appeasement and more gun control laws? You are.

"However, House GOP Whip Tom DeLay said Republican leaders were
preparing to begin formal House-Senate compromise talks on gun control
by next week, and all but promised that some of the Democratic
proposals would be part of a final compromise on separate legislation."

Now explain to me again how you and your Republicans are the heroes of gun rights.

If you want to discuss things with me, I am ready, willing, and able. I recommend you contemplate your statements, however, before you lable me the enemy.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 15, 1999).]
 
ok I made it back....sorry it took so long.....

Connieach,

Dont worry about the tirades that will come my way from libertarians for expressing my beliefs---I truly believe in my rights and theirs as well..besides I still have a flak jacket somewhere..lol...
<<I understand where you're coming from, but saying that Libs are responsible for Democratic victories is like saying gun owners are responsible for HCI. That argument don't wash.>>
On this point I suppose we will continue to disagree, I do believe that Perot took votes from bush and those votes were by people who were going to show the republican party and stick to there principle's regardless of the result of such action. How can that be denied with any creditability? If you dont think that a 3rd party in this election will elect a democratic president you are deceiving yourself. I also think that this point has to be trashed by the libertarians in order to gain voters---they cannot admit the results of an unsuccesful run for the presidency this time. You have to cloud it in rhetoric of statements like "I voted my counscience and I didnt vote for that guy so Im not responsible." Well I got news for ya, you will be responsible for taking that action and either failing to realize the consequences or not caring about the consequencences of your actions, there is no moral high ground in this fight it is win or lose...the democrats have to lose big in my opinion and fighting amongst ourselves will not bring that about.
<<You need to realize that the existing framework is FUBAR. It's time to tear down the dangerous edifice of our current system and start from a fresh blueprint. Working within the system is what's got us to this point.>>
I to think that our system is struggling, but it is a long way from fubar, You have some government your aware of that dosent have corruption and room for improvement? I take it the fresh blueprint is Libertarianism? What governments have had successful revolutions that led to a better govt then before....Im no scholar but I know of only one, America, there could be more do you know of any?

Ipeac,
<<Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall the Republicans have had control of both houses of Congress since '94. In that time, how many gun control laws did Congress vote to repeal? How many gun control laws passed, and were signed into law? Which number is greater?>>
They certainly have and did ok for a short period, then the relentless media attacks on the leadership and the damn stupidity of some of them folks was unbelievable...... when has any congress voted to repeal a gun law? Ideally, I like to see em all thrown out accept the founding documents.....I can try and sell ya on the fact that the republicans were out of power for so long blah blah blah,,,but the truth is they were and with the knowledge that they had they still screwed up royal...I dont give the press a pass here they are a bunch of socialist sob's in my book, but the democrats were capable of utilizing that ally to the destruction of the republican leadership..... think about this...we've got probably the lowest form of life on the planet in the whitehouse, his one redeeming feature to his supporters is that he is an incredible politician--when he first got elected I told a democrat I work with who was touting how great this guy was that he would be the downfall of the democratic party--Im hoping he still might be, I know he has been able with skillful manipulations of the positions of power in our govt to escape unscathed for all intents----and dont forget the democrats voted as a block during his impeachment and on most other things while those of us who are free thinking independent/republicans swapped sides....so we lost again.....clinton stays and we lose two senior house leaders.......lets vote out the bums that swapped sides--how about that?, Lets replace em with libertarians...I like that idea, they could win locally----remember all politics is local....
<<How many of the people running the ATF and FBI operations at Ruby Ridge and Waco were tried for their crimes by the Republican-controlled Congress after the hearings? How many were fired? How many got raises and promotions? Which number is greater?>>
I dont know.....Now lets see that would be the responsibility of the justice department to prosecute.....manned by Janet reno (pun Intended), who was appointed by the democratic president. That whole situation smells......
<<Coinneach is right, saying the Dems win because folks decide to vote other than Republican is poor reasoning. It is just as logical to say that if wasn't for anti-gun George the First stealing votes from Perot that Perot would have won.>>
Nope, I dont think he is....and here is why, if you look at the number of people that acutally vote, do you think that perot brought in new voters or did he just share voters from the existing pool of voters? If his voters were new then there should have been a huge difference in the number of people voting were there? I doubt it.

<<If the consequence of my voting is that I help one anti-BoR politician get elected, then I have chosen poorly and have made my own situation worse, not better.>>
I could make an argument here but I agree with you, conditionally. If my choice was between a democrat rabid anti bor, or someone of vassilated (republican from time to time), I would take the lesseer of the two to keep the other bum out....
the bumper stickers have been kicking around for a while I wanted to get some made to cover up the clowns who have those "ill take the credt..clinton/gore" and cover them with "Ill take the blame....clinton/gore",,,lol....

guttsmoke,
<<Now to Mr. Fubsy I can only add to what the others have said by adding that; could you please educate me on what makes you think by voting for the Republicans things will turn in our favor? Additionally, could you explain to me what is the difference between the Demos and the Repub? They both lie, steal and take more of our rights away.>>
Its a hard question for me to answer but Ill try.....do I think that by electing republicans things will change in our favor, I would certainly hope so but I doubt it. There not going to walk in and start making sweeping changes because they will not have carte blanche to do what they want, our govt was set up to move within a system of chks and balances which is often slow. I dont recall republicans being rabid after our rights, I dont know what they have initated on their own until lately that was anti 2nd amend. Im not for any gun laws. Its hard anymore to find that difference between them. Imo the primary problem we have within the republican party is the moderates the bush's (Im not a fan of jr either),etc, what use to be called the rockefeller republicans---with enuf conservatives elected to the republican party it would be possible to bring the party centered again, and no it will not happen overnight and there will be loses along the way. There are conservatives that exist with in the party and they should not be discarded with the anti-repub/pro-3rd party fevor, the only way congresscritters(tks ipeac), get to positions of power in the comittes of congress is through senority, thats a fact.
To me your last comment seems to imply that ""everyone does it"", I dont think everyone does.....

Johnaz & spartacus,
I think you would be responsible as well for falling on your sword instead of stopping that anti gun politician by a vote....jmo....

:) I want to thank Ya'll for a most enjoyable night, I apoligize for taking so long, work was rough and long this evening.
I get the impression that Libertarians seem to think that the govt is beyond help and politicians are all useless.....they definitely need help, they dont need abandonment. The Libertarians views are not everyones, if they were---would ya'll have to ferment discontent? You would already be in office, the reality that I see is that you can not win the presidency at this time, but work toward that goal just dont give the durn democrats a victory. Do you really think that if some miracle occurs that the libertarian president will be able to lead? Where is his support, what happens to your party when he fall's on his face because he has no support and everyone is out to get him?, you dont think politics is played that way.....remember newt.
I agree with nestor, in the preliminarys vote for your guy, but when it comes to the presidential vote, dont give it to the democrats.....guys/gals we need to win, I cant take 4 or 8 more years of this crap from these democrats with power unchecked, which is what will happen with a 3rd party. I dont think the republicans are the answer, not as they are now, I know the democrats arent and libertarins if I thought they could succeed Id be right there with ya, but I dont think they can........yet.

Ya'll have a good night its late and Im goin to sleep...fubsy.
 
fubsy,
Thanks for taking the time to reply after a rough day. However, I don't think I stated my point clearly. I understand the justice dept is responsible for the criminal charges, but did the republican congress recommend that anyone involved be indicted? Nope. And I notice you didn't touch on the gun laws passed issue.

As to perot/bush, I never even implied that perot brought in new voters, but I'm sure he brought some. My point was, that it is just as logical to conclude that bush stole votes from perot, as it is to conclude that perot stole votes from bush. BTW, I remember reading at the time that perot took as many from the democrats as from the republicans.

At this point, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. We all have our opinions, and unfortunately for all of us IMHO, there are more people who share your views on this issue than mine. I do think that there are millions of voters who essentially agree with the libertarian philosophy, but are unwilling to vote libertarian for the reasons you, and others, give.

What part of libertarianism do you disagree with? This is a serious question, not a snide remark.

Here's hoping you have a better day today.

------------------

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken
 
Divide and conquer. A tactic that has worked for centuries. Looks like enough people are going to fall for it again. You will make yourself irrelevant, a nothing, a nobody with no voice. You may as well not even vote because your vote for a third party will amount to about the same thing.....nothing. You WILL be handing the democrats a victory. Those are the facts, plain and simple. It would appear a lot of gun owners are too intellectually challenged to understand this. I truly fear for our rights as I see the old divide and conquer tactic working again. If you really want to preserve our gun rights you need to hold your nose while voting republican.

The only way to make a third party a viable choice is to require a runoff in the presidential elections in the even there is no clear majority for a given candidate. That means a constitutional amendment, I think.
 
If you really want to preserve our gun rights you need to hold your nose while voting republican.

Frank, you can't be serious.

Voting Republican is what's got us to this point, for Cooper's sake! Can't you see that? The Republicans don't want to preserve our rights, they just want to take them away more slowly than the Demonicrats!

Frank, Fubsy, Nestor, listen up: VOTING REPUBLICAN IS VOTING FOR TYRANNY! If you want to accomodate the sheeple, fine. You're on your own. I'll vote Libertarian and SPREAD THE WORD. I'll WORK to defend our rights. I WILL NOT be defeatist and whine about splitting votes.

IF WE WORK TOGETHER, WE CAN DO THIS. AND VOTING REPUBLICAN <BLINK>WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM!</BLINK>

Pardon the shouting, but you guys need to wake the hell up. Working within the system and not making waves is useless, as has been demonstrated over and over and freakin' OVER. You want to keep your guns, take some real action. Vote the bastards out if you can, and let real Americans, like Harry Browne, have a shot at it.

That's all. I'm out of this thread. If you haven't got it by now, I fear you never will. If you want to debate, feel free to email me.

Now pardon me whilst I chug this here bottle of Maalox...

------------------
You can't get something for nothing,
You can't have freedom for free.
--Neil Peart
 
Frank, I normally ignore your posts, but, since you decided to take a personal shot at me and others, I'll go ahead and respond.

First, if you think that any of us who are arguing against the Republicans is listening to the antis/Democrats, then you need to go back and actually read the posts we have made. I'll keep any comments as to who is actually intellectually challenged to myself.

The only way to make a third party viable is for people to vote for it. This is not unheard of, or unprecedented. Get a history book, and look up "Whigs" and "Republicans" and let me know what you find. Remember, read carefully.

Finally, anybody who believes that only the 2 major parties, who have assisted each other in shredding the BoR and the rest of the Constitution, have a chance at being elected is actually believing "the media". So who is it that is buying the divide and conquer bs?

Coinneach, hold the door for me.


------------------

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken


[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited July 15, 1999).]
 
Guys, this whole system is one big COrporate State. All three branches follow the corporate law. The Bill of Rights are trashed by police, courts, and politicians. We cant vote for a Demorat or a Republirat. Rivera, Bush is a NWO partisan and even has gone against the Texas Republican Party Platform in his own state. Alex Jones has exposed Bush in his own state as the one world elite that Skull and Bones Bush is. If all the third parties got together, maybe we would stand a chance.But the problem is the entire rotten corporate system that must be trashed like it has trashed America for the last 86 years. We must eliminate the Federal Reserve Systemand its revenue gathering arm the IRS,put the Federal Government back in DC and pueerto Rico, eliminate the UN, restore states rights, bring our industries back from overseas , rstore our traditional small farming operations, bring our troops home, and 100 other things. It may take a COnstitutional Convention to restore this nation and there is danger in that process. Do I sound crazy or unrealistic? Our fathers and grandfathers should have been the watchmen on the wall, but they let much of this corporate crap take place since 1913 with the cration of Fed Reserve system Irs, and world wars created and Financed by the Banksters. No one wants to admit it,but we all are indentured servants to this corporate system. Only Ron Paul hAs a bill to abolish Fed Reserve . The rest of that DC crowd aint worth a bucket of warm spit!
 
Listen to yourselves. Who's right and who's wrong is not the point here. If the Lib's vote Smith and the Rep's vote Bush, (or whomever), it almost guarantees that Gore wins - and WE lose. The anti's reading this thread must really be getting off.

I don't know who's got the best chance at winning the progun vote but one thing is clear to me - divided we fall! Can Smith win the presidency? Maybe, but it's one hell of a longshot. Can Bush win? I believe he can. Smith may very well be THE candidate of choice for many but do we really want to waste votes on principle?

We need to stop bashing each other and find a way to support ONE candidate that has a chance to win. We can't dig our heels in on this guys - this only keeps us divided and we CAN'T risk this on this election!

Gore is salivating over his chances to stick it to us. Do we really want to RISK his proposals to gut our 2nd Amendment Rights? That's exactly what we'll do if we can't get it together.

Doug
 
This is such a joke..I could sell you die-hard Republicans snow in the Arctic. Every 2 years ya'll come whining and beg for support, I give it and then you shaft me.

Look at your Republican Congress...they ask how and when they can cave to the Dems. Where have they stuck it to Clinton? Have they overrode his vetos? Have they restored the Constitution? Have they even tried? What about Clinton/China....is Clinton in jail for treason? Or how about the sellout to the UN?
All this has happened with a Rep controlled Congress. Or gun control? Let's see, hmmm Bush was Pres in '86...sound familiar?
Yeah right, the Republicans will save us...or at least they'll get a better payoff from China or whomever waves enough money in their face.



------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
You know what the sad part is about all of this? The majority of Americans who do in fact bother to vote will either vote the way the Leftist media tells them to vote or they will vote for the "Best Actor".

On topics such as Gun Rights or Hunting Rights, etc., there are too few of us relative to the general public. It is largely the uninformed majority who holds the power to take these things away by the way they vote.

These are the people we have to swing to our side. Unfortunately, we have to compete with a multi-million dollar media apparatus with it's own agenda.

I appreciate the third party sentiment, I'm pondering it myself. The only problem is that the non gun owning general public also must be swayed in this direction also. That I'm not so sure about.

Politicians,especially Presidential candidates, are merchandised like any other product. Unfortunately, today most people don't bother to "try before they buy". We then wind up with the likes of the Clintonites who promise more government hand-outs to everyone.

Diatribe Concluded.
 
This thread is a good example of how hard it is to come to a concensus among people and what makes it even worse is we do have one thing in common, we are all rkba people.
Ive read were stating my opinions is considered "whining" well how clintonian of you.
In another post if you vote republican you are defeatist---it should be obvious from my point of view that you keep pushing the evolution of your party to where you want your political party to be.
The views are implying that the republicans are bad....all of them?,,,,I doubt that they all are, why not throw out the ones who voted anti 2nd amend and keep the rest, like this board and this thread in particular not every politician has the exact same views and not all of them are going to vote the way everyone wants everytime....and I dont see how Mr Brown, btw what has he been elected to, anything?, can lead a country with no political party---ive asked this question many times of libertarians and have yet to get an answer other than by executive order....is there any other way?


IPEAC,
Thanks for taking the time to reply after a rough day. However, I don't think I stated my point clearly. I understand the justice dept is responsible for the criminal charges, but did the republican congress recommend that anyone involved be indicted? Nope.......
.........I could be mistaken here but I still believe inditements are a function of the justice dept not congress, although they do have oversight.............
And I notice you didn't touch on the gun laws passed issue.........
.....you might have missed my answer it was simple, "I said I didnt know"......
As to perot/bush, I never even implied that perot brought in new voters, but I'm sure he brought some. My point was, that it is just as logical to conclude that bush stole votes from perot, as it is to conclude that perot stole votes from bush. BTW, I remember reading at the time that perot took as many from the democrats as from the republicans.........and I remember just the opposite, as far as bush stealing votes from perot, the presidency wasnt perots to lose and as a newcomer to the race those votes werent perots to begin with, so bush could not have taken them........

At this point, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. We all have our opinions, and unfortunately for all of us IMHO, there are more people who share your views on this issue than mine. I do think that there are millions of voters who essentially agree with the libertarian philosophy, but are unwilling to vote libertarian for the reasons you, and others, give..........
........I agree with you here and I would not sell the 3rd party idea short, It is my belief that there are more closet libertarians then you would believe---If there was viable party mechanism in place, and some way to shatter the democratic base Id be leaning even further there way......as it is Im pro-smith, and will help as im able toward his campaign,, Im also pro alan Keyes

What part of libertarianism do you disagree with? This is a serious question, not a snide remark........................
..............I realize its not a snide remark and everyone here ought to realize that this discussion taking place with differing view's, opinions,imo is exactly what the founding fathers expected from the citizens of this country. When we talk of sheeple, and run each other down with vitrolic comments we not aiding or persuading each other over points of view, admittedly we most likely will not all come together on all political issues......You have helped me work through some questions I had and I thankyou for it. Also so ya'll wont get the wrong impression im not a dyed in the wool republican, I started out as a hubert humphrey democrat, swithched to Nixon and Reagan, held my nose for bush and here we are.....
Ipeac, Ill get back to ya on the libertarian platform, privately if you prefer, it dosent matter to me.....fubsy.
 
I support the Republican platform but the Republicans don't!

Now take it easy, that's not MY opinion, it is Senator Smith's and he proves it - right down the line - in his resignation speech.

Frank noted, "What has voting for a third party acheived? IT GAVE US CLINTON!!! Any more questions??"

Yes, Frank, why are you voting for gun control?

Here is an excerpt from another thread,
((quote))
FROM THE NEIL KNOX REPORT:
...
(Republican) Majority Whip Tom Delay says that he expects to see the "non-
controversial" gun provisions passed by both houses of Congress --
everything except the differing Lautenberg, Craig, McCollum,
Dingell and McCarthy gun show bills -- to be folded into the final
House-Senate Juvenile Justice bill.
((Unquote))

Tell me again, Frank, how the Republicans are going to save us from the Democrats.
-------

All,

Although the Republican Party platform is against gun control, the Republicans already PROMISE more gun control. You vote Republican? You support gun control.

A Republican vote is little more than a watered-down vote for the Clinton-clone, the Manchurian Candidate, your supposed enemy, Al Gore and his gun control program.

The reason a third party has not yet been successful, is that conservatives of BOTH major parties keep whining "but your guy is not electable so I'll vote against..." whatever bullspit candidate they wish to fight at the moment.

A vote is not a vote AGAINST someone.

A vote is a vote FOR someone.

And if the self-proclaimed believers in freedom would understand that, then the Democrats and Republicans would nearly vanish from the face of the earth.

Vote your "against-vote". But learn to enjoy gun registration and confiscation and increased demonization and persecution of gun owners because you did not have the moral fortitude to
vote FOR your Beliefs!
Vote FOR your Rights!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 16, 1999).]
 
DC, as usual very well said. i need to add no more to your statement other than i agree whole-heartedly with it.... longhair

------------------
what me worry?
 
Gun control is going to be a major issue during this next presidential election. Most Americans support some sort of gun control measure that keep guns out of the hands of criminals....like background checks at gun shows. I support background checks. So do most Americans.

If you give the democrats an issue...like republicans won't support keeping guns out of the hands of criminals..... then the republicans may very well loose the next Presidential elections as well as their razor thin margin in the house and senate. They have to appear as though their doing something or they may well loose more votes than if gun owners alone were to abandon the party. The measures they proposed didn't have real teeth yet made them appear to the vast middle as though they were doing something about gun violence. Trigger locks don't take your right to own a firearm away. In the end, the Juvenile justice bill was defeated in the republican controlled house. So now you come along and tell me they ain't doing nothin' about preserving our gun rights? Without the republicans you wouldn't have any gun rights right now. The democrats would have succeeded in taking your gun rights away a long time ago.

With gun control being a major issue for this comming presidential election and if you succeed in getting gun owners to abandon the republican party, you will wind up with a situation where the republicans will loose and the media will spin it as a referendum against guns. So there you are with your principled stand acting all rightous and all with your best ally in the republicans just having been defeated and the media says it's because of guns and the republican unwillingness to pass meaningfull gun laws. You think you are screwed now? You ain't seen nothin' yet if you succeed in getting gun owners to abandon the republican party thus allowing the Democrats to win. And make no mistake about it....they WILL win. And when they do there goes the rest of your gun rights.
Possibly more dangerous than the legislation the democrats may impose against gun owners is the liberal supreme court justices they will appoint in the next four years. Three justices are expected to retire and some have held off retireing until we get another conservative president. With a liberal supreme court and their "CREATIVE INTERPRITATION" of the constitution you can expect a ruling on the second amendment and it won't be in our favor. That's not to mention the liberal social agenda that will further debase American society by the decisions made by that liberal supreme court. Yet there you are with your "PRINCIPLED" stand totally irrelevant and without your gun rights. FOOLISH PRIDE is what it is! God! I fear for this country!

By voting third party you are going to send a message that republicans lost because of guns and that now it is OK for democrats to pass legislation banning guns.

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited July 16, 1999).]
 
Frank,
1) If you’re going to quote me, quote me correctly. I never said the
Republicans “...ain't doing nothin' about preserving our gun rights...” I said
the Republicans are only slowing the complete destruction of our gun
rights.
2) You say, “ Without the republicans you wouldn't have any gun rights
right now. The democrats would have succeeded in taking your gun rights
away a long time ago.” Yep, could be. Or it could be we would have ousted
the Democrats and still would have the rights we had fifty, even thirty years
ago.
Or the Republicans could read and go by their own party platform instead of
misleading us consistently and constantly. I did not leave the Republican
Party - it’s been hi-jacked by the Democrats. If the Republicans come back
to their own party platform, then I might support them again.
3) To call the Republicans, “..our best ally...” is at best to be totally
unaware, purposefully unaware of what is happening. Read the Republican
platform and watch what they do. Read, Frank. Don’t just spout Republican
arguments about how much worse it “could” have been. Compare their
words and their actions. Republicans of today are merely diluted
Democrats.
4) If you must condemn me, I am happy that you condemn me for
principles, although, as a Republican, it must be hard to belong to a party
that has none. “Read my lips,” indeed.
5) Again, Frank, we - as gun rights advocates - need not lose to the
Democrats if we vote our values instead of this misguided, cowardly,
inappropriately named “realism” that the Republicans foist upon us in the
fervent hope they can continue to mislead us.
6) Frank, (WHAP!), ignore us for twenty minutes and read Senator Smith’s
resignation speech. Read it! Understand it! You’re standing on quicksand
telling us it’s concrete!
7) I’ll stand on my principles, my vote, and (if it become necessary) my
guns. If you don’t want to, that is your choice. But don’t try to convince us
to vote for tyranny just to go along with you.
Coinneach (tag), you’re up. I gotta back off a bit.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 16, 1999).]
 
I seem to be lost here somwere as to the R. Congress. I did not here about the senate ratifing Kyoto, Or the UN Small Arms resolution, or the International Child rights accord. Or did I miss somthing

Yes Bob Smith would be a great President, BUT in just 1 2/2 years so would I (IMVHO) and we have the exact same chance of winning.

If you live in NH support BOB for SENATE it was and is still the great break aginst quick and stupid laws. Heck If we could get 10 bob smits in the senate NO gun law would EVER get passed.
 
Perhaps it would be helpful to briefly review some of the highlights of the Bill Clinton presidency as a point of departure for understanding the national revulsion against him and those closely associated with him.......the democrats and why we can't let them win by going to a third party.

The big pushes during Clinton's two terms in office were to: raise taxes, cover up the Travelgate scandal, increase government spending, diversify the sexes from two to five, transfer America's manufacturing base to needy foreign countries, legitimize sexual deviancy, sissify the military, cover up Whitewater, foster class warfare, cover up the massacres of American citizens at Waco and Ruby Ridge, keep as many members of the cabinet out of jail as possible, shred 12 tons of incriminating documents, defend racial discrimination against people of non-color, defend welfare as we know it, strip marriage of its meaning by extending its benefits to odd couples, defend and promote infanticide, register welfare recipients to vote, expand benefits for illegal aliens, blame school violence on inanimate objects instead of the media, recruit illegal aliens to the Democrat Party, raise money to defend the president against a pants-dropping charge, put the Creator of the Universe under house arrest, confiscate private property, control the amount of water used in a toilet flush, deny parents the right to choose schools for their children, mainstream hustler Larry Flynt, subvert the Constitution with loophole-lawyering, return California and Texas to Mexico, foster anti-American multiculturalism, start Cold War II, promote the idea that oral sex is not sex, mangle the English language with legal babble, prove you can lie under oath and get away with it, establish the moral precedent that adultery is OK if the wife doesn't care, protect endangered weeds and kangaroo rats from farmers, keep Hillary out of jail, develop an affirmative-action program for a venereal disease, promote cigars as sex toys, rent out the Lincoln Bedroom, put degeneracy on a pedestal, socialize medicine, sell nuclear secrets to China, criminalize "incorrect" thought, use the United Nations to teach Third World countries the joys of wholesale abortions, cover up the cover-ups, meddle in the internal affairs of other nations, wage illegal wars, and teach underage children how to have sex without consequences.

If one looks beneath the surface, what comes into full view is the liberal vision for America. It is a vision based on two theoretical models for the perfect society. First, economic socialism, based on the assumption that the government owns all wealth and resources and has the responsibility for managing them to
achieve an egalitarian outcome; and second, social hedonism, based on the assumption that the government is the ultimate arbiter of morality and has the responsibility to redefine right and wrong as necessary to accommodate whatever corrupt choices
happen to be in vogue.

And now Dennis wants more of the same by going to vote with a third party thus ensuring a win for the democrats.

Dennis, defeating the democrats is more important right now than going third party. WAY MORE IMPORTANT! Once the democrats are forever defeated then we can relax, go third party and restore America and our gun rights to what they once were.

I swear, the move to divide the republican base must be a subversive move by democrats to destroy the republicans and ensure a democratic victory.......AND YOU ARE FALLING FOR IT! Get a clue here, will ya! Don't you want to protect our gun rights? Beleive me, if the republicans can soundly win the presidency and more seats in the house and senate it will make our gun rights way more secure than taking a pricipled stand with a third party and then loosing everything to the democrats........or are you one of those subversive democratic plants out to destroy our gun rights by dividing the gun vote?

Dennis, if you can hold out and vote republican I think you will see the democrats resoundly trounced during the next election and it will be considered a referendum on the strenght of the pro-gun vote (at least partially).

Don't be fooled, a third party vote is the absolut worst thing you could do right now.......that's exactly what the democrats want you to do!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited July 16, 1999).]
 
Frank,

Reading your first paragraph put me in stitches! I love it! We agree
100%! I never have seen a better synopsis of Clinton. I hope you
don’t mind if I copy it and give it to some former friends (Democrats)
of mine.

Let’s just agree that we oppose the Democrat agenda. No argument
there. Please be civil enough to dispute MY views instead of making
what Clinton might call a “mis-statement”.

Don’t ever again accuse me by saying, “And now Dennis wants more
of the same by going to vote with a third party thus ensuring a win for
the democrats.” Frank, that is an untruth you can not justify. I
suggest you don’t say it again. Dispute my views but be careful of
your blind accusations.

1) I do not want more of the same. That’s why I am not voting the
same as I have in the past - they have betrayed me (and you, and all
gun owners). It is YOU who is voting for “more of the same”.

2) If we voted for our rights both the Republicans and the Democrats
would be defeated. If we had the integrity to vote where our mouth
says our beliefs are, we could throw out the Democrats AND the
Republicans. Eighty million gun owners voting against the
Republocrats would ensure a new government.

You say, “Dennis, defeating the democrats is more important right
now than going third party. WAY MORE IMPORTANT! Once the
democrats are forever defeated then we can relax, go third party and
restore America and our gun rights to what they once were.”

1) We have the same goals, Frank. We both want to restore the full
intent of Second Amendment.

2) Defeating the Democrats or the Republicans is not my goal. My
goal is gun rights.

3) Frank, the Republicans are promising, in public, in the
newspapers, more gun control! By voting for Republicans you are
voting for gun control; perhaps not as severe or sudden as that
espoused by the Democrats, but it is still gun control.

4) We’ve had Republican Presidents. We’ve had Republican
Congresses. Both gave us more gun control. Your view that
Republicans in government will reduce gun control is unfounded and
historically proven to be wrong. Voting for people who promise gun
control because they ride an elephant is just as dumb as voting for the
jackass party.

Your Republican vote WILL result in more gun control. You’ve seen it.
You know it. Just because it is slower than Democrat gun control,
don’t vote for it.

Eighty million gun owners are cutting their own throats by voting
Republican.

Why be one of them?
 
Dennis, Im glad you understand the spirit of debate.

If I were a democrat, anti gun, pro homosexual, pro taxes there is one thing I would try to do to ensure a win for the democrats.

I would try to split the republican party. There is no better way to ensure a democratic win.

As a republican I want to split the democrats to ensure a republican win but there is no issue at the moment that will split the democrats. There are people who would give millions to get an issue to split the democrats but there ain't none.

Splitting the republican vote by going third party is the most dangerous thing you can possibly do as a gun owner and freedom advocate. You are going to let the democrats win and then what?? Who are you going to turn to that has a chance against them? We've aready had 40 years of democratic rule and you can see where it has gotten us. Why vote for more of the same by going third party?? You're going to loose and loose BIG TIME by voting third party!!!


[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited July 18, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Frank Haertlein (edited July 18, 1999).]
 
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