Remember the problem is illegal ALIENS...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Cracking down on employers is wrong! It is asking the governments (fed, state, local) to get more involved in private businesses where they have no business anyway.

The illegal aliens should be stopped at the border. We should have more guards and maybe the army to police the BORDER for illegal aliens.

PLEASE, DO NOT PROMOTE THE IDEA OF THE NATIONAL I.D.! I know that some states, maybe all of them, require you to keep I.D. on your person at all times and to present it when asked for it. This is wrong!
 
PLEASE, DO NOT PROMOTE THE IDEA OF THE NATIONAL I.D.! I know that some states, maybe all of them, require you to keep I.D. on your person at all times and to present it when asked for it. This is wrong!

I agree. So you can be arrested for not having "your papers" on you while you travel out and about? How Nazi can you get.
 
I don't know about a national id but I honestly believed that it required a ss# or identifying number of some sort to get a yob, Now, exluding all the small town 15 year olds working in a mom & pop pizza parlor for tips, why isn't that required?

Aspen, but all it does is hinder. How many of the ones sent back give up? My understanding was that border patrol agents often see the same people over again...

Pointer, that's only if...and that'll never happen. Besides, you ever hear about what happens to immigrants migrating to mexico illigally? They F them up...
 
If a dozen homeless people moved, un-invited, into your yard and your garage and even your home...

Only they're not. They're not moving into your yard, either. Guy comes here, shares an apartment with half a dozen of his friends, and works for a living...how is he living in your yard?
 
Destructo6,
The price is the point. In AZ, if the alien doesn't have a criminal history, the US Attorney won't take the case because they don't want to spend time (money) on a case that will irritate the Immigration Judge since there are plenty of criminal aliens to fill the court.
Perhaps I?m picking at nits, but this wasn?t what we were discussing. You said, ?If some Joe alien jumps the fence for the first time and has no criminal history, he will be charged and removed administratively, not criminally.? I responded with an example of how that wasn?t necessarily true. Moreover, I explained that charging ?Joe Alien? criminally for a first offence was possibly in the works for the rest of the border. I also said that this pilot program has impacted the area?s number of EWI?s. No big surprise there.

I?m harping on this point for a reason. I have said for many years that the real way to impact illegal immigration is to completely do away with the administrative charges for EWI and charge every single illegal border crosser criminally. There are several reasons this must be done. First, swift and certain punishment for breaking the law has shown throughout history to have a deterrent affect on those that would break the law. This has also shown to be the case in the specific area of illegal immigration as well (see Del Rio sectors border crossing rates, and the impact of Expedited Removal on the various locations that were pilot stations. Or just look at the difference in illegal entry?s between Texas and Arizona). Second, it is the easiest solution to implement, as it really doesn?t require anything but policy changes from somebody high enough up the food chain (barring that, legislative changes can accomplish the same thing). And a closely related third, while going after employers is needed, it will never be an easy thing to do and it requires huge amounts of work and at times it is virtually impossible to prove knowledge and intent (see the more than a year long investigation to go after one single employer IFCO Systems).
 
How hard can it be to prove intent? Couldn't they be taken down Capone style over income tax evasion? Wonder what ever became of wal-mart's all american cleaning crews?
 
redworm,
Only they're not. They're not moving into your yard, either. Guy comes here, shares an apartment with half a dozen of his friends, and works for a living...how is he living in your yard?

You must be kidding right? How can you look at this situation and say that they aren?t causing any damage to America? Taxpayer expenses for health care and education alone is running at an all time high. So much so, that hospitals are closing in all the border states and the education population is at an all time low. In Texas the number of high school and college graduates is lower than ever and plummeting, and that?s in direct correlation to the increasing number of illegal aliens. The last number I heard was something along the lines of 20 billion dollars is spent in the border states to provide health care and education to illegal immigrants. That is a direct cost to your pocketbook and mine solely because these people don?t have the common courtesy to abide by the laws of the land the claim they want to be a part of. There is no difference between what they are doing and some stranger walking into your house uninvited and making himself at home.
 
How hard can it be to prove intent?
It's hard to show that they knowingly hired somebody that was illegal. Even people trained to recognize false documents can't always tell if a document is actually false, much less those that have no training or exposure to false documents.
 
but are those healthcare/schooling costs not offset by the taxes the DO pay? Other than income what else are they skipping? I thought we still manage to tax them...and If we had some means by which we could integrate them into our country, would the taxes they pay not cover their tab? eventually at least? Are we not capable as a nation to have a system that has room for everyone? God forbid we have a bunch of healthy educated mexicans over here, they might not be poor for much longer, no wonder everyone's worried! Really though, would there not be real dividends from an investment like that? Nevermind, I know I know, too much kool-aid in my system...what was I thinkin...Silly eutopian ideas...dang ants.
 
but are those healthcare/schooling costs not offset by the taxes the DO pay?
Not even close. There are more than a few studies that have shown illegal aliens at best pay many thousands less into the system than they take out of it. Something on the scale of taking out about 5,000 more than they pay in per illegal alien. Moreover, most illegal aliens are willingly not part of the typical ?American Dream? of rising from one station in life (poverty) and moving into a higher station (wealth). Many illegal aliens come to America, work for some number of years at a much higher wage than they can find in Central America, send a goodly portion back to their home country and eventually return to live in their country at a much higher level than they could have otherwise. I don?t necessarily begrudge their desire to do that. However, I do begrudge them not allowing me (or my country rather) the ability to choose who we think is worth bringing into America and then on top of that, saddling me with a higher tax load simply because they are not a typical ?immigrant? that becomes part of this nation and raises America as a whole, but rather remains a non-immigrant and contributes only slightly to our nation.

and If we had some means by which we could integrate them into our country, would the taxes they pay not cover their tab? eventually at least?
Again, there are several studies that have shown that if we were to grant some form of legal status to the current numbers of illegal aliens, the difference between what they pay into the federal coffers and what they take out grows to about 8,000 dollars per illegal alien. If I remember correctly, under some form of legal status for existing illegal aliens, tax payments would increase by 70 something percent, but costs would increase by about 120 percent.

God forbid we have a bunch of healthy educated mexicans over here, they might not be poor for much longer, no wonder everyone's worried!
The problem is that illegal aliens are not "healthy educated Mexicans" like you describe. They are the poorest, least educated, and with the worst health of anybody in Central America. That is the problem. Again, several studies have shown that not only is this the general makeup of illegal aliens, they tend to remain this way through more of their number illegally immigrating and because those that might have attained an admirable level of health, wealth, and education (at my expense) return to their native country.
 
In Texas the number of high school and college graduates is lower than ever and plummeting, and that?s in direct correlation to the increasing number of illegal aliens.
Correlation != causation. High school statistics course can teach you that.

can we see some of those studies you mentioned?
 
Yes, there is a possibility that a first-time jumper could get charged criminally, but what I stated is the rule in the most active sectors. I would like to see all of these folks charged with EWI, but it would require a huge increase in processing and court capacity.
This has also shown to be the case in the specific area of illegal immigration as well (see Del Rio sectors border crossing rates, and the impact of Expedited Removal on the various locations that were pilot stations.
I don't think it can be shown that Del Rio's use of Expedited Removal has caused the drop in traffic, as AZ uses ERs also and it doesn't seem to have had an effect.
 
How about this for a few comments.

Subject: Should the States adopt the Mexican law about citizenship?

The Mexican solution Frank J. Gaffney, Jr.
The Congress has received lots of free advice lately from Mexican government officials and illegal aliens waving Mexico's flag in mass demonstrations coast-to-coast. Most of it takes the form of bitter complaints about our actual or prospective treatment of immigrants from that country who have gotten into this one illegally ? or who aspire to do so.


If you think these critics are mad about U.S. immigration policy now, imagine how upset they would be if we adopted an approach far more radical than the bill they rail against which was adopted last year by the House of Representatives ? namely, the way Mexico treats illegal aliens.


In fact, as a just-published paper by the Center for Security Policy's J. Michael Waller points out, under a constitution first adopted in 1917 and subsequently amended, Mexico deals harshly not only with illegal immigrants. It treats even legal immigrants, naturalized citizens and foreign investors in ways that would, by the standards of those who carp about U.S. immigration policy, have to be called "racist" and "xenophobic."


For example, according to an official translation published by the Organization of American States, the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:




Pursuant to Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.


Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."


Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports. Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

In accordance with Article 130, immigrants ? even legal ones ? may not become members of the clergy, either.




Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."


Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto , any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities." In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!


The Mexican constitution states that foreigners ? not just illegal immigrants ? may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."



As the immigration debate in the Senate moves into a decisive phase this week, legislators who believe America's southern border must be secured, the Nation's existing immigration laws enforced and illegal aliens not rewarded with permanent residency and a direct path to citizenship are being sharply criticized and, in some cases, defamed as bigots and xenophobes. Yet, even their maximalist positions generally pale in comparison with the treatment authorized by the Mexican constitution.


So the next time such legislators ? and the majority of Americans for whom they speak ? are assaulted by Mexican officials, undocumented aliens waving Mexican flags in mass demonstrations here in the United States, clergy and self-described humanitarians, businessmen and other advocates of illegal immigration ask them this: Would they favor having the U.S. impose the same restrictions on immigrants ? legal and illegal ? that Mexico imposes on their counterparts there?


Nothing of the kind is in the cards, of course. Nor should it be. Legal immigration and the opportunity for foreign investors and other nationals to contribute to this country are not only one of its hallmarks; they are among the reasons for its greatness.


Still, we should not allow the hypocrisy of others' treatment of undocumented aliens in their countries to induce us to refrain from taking effective steps to prevent further illegal immigration: by building a fence along our southern border; by enforcing immigration laws in the workplace and elsewhere; and by discouraging more such violations ? with potentially grave national security implications ? by dealing effectively with those who have already broken those laws by coming here without permission

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/gaffney040406.asp


HQ
 
Destructo6,

Yes, there is a possibility that a first-time jumper could get charged criminally, but what I stated is the rule in the most active sectors. I would like to see all of these folks charged with EWI, but it would require a huge increase in processing and court capacity.
Look, we?re just going around and around here. You said in your original post that a first time, non-criminal illegal alien got charged administratively, and I explained how that wasn?t always the case. Period. End of sentence. I don?t really give a rats ass if Tuscan Sector effectively has no recidivist level or not, if they almost never reinstate orders of removal or not, or if they jump up and down and applaud each illegal entry (they don?t, but whether they do or not doesn?t change my point). The fact of the matter is that there are locations that do criminally charge first time border crossers with 8 USC 1325. And where this is being done, entry?s have fallen. Again, period. End of sentence. It is a fact, and it is showing that effective and sure punishment deters illegal entry. This is my point; that in order to effectively handle illegal immigration offenders (the actual alien) has to be dealt with criminally.

I don't think it can be shown that Del Rio's use of Expedited Removal has caused the drop in traffic, as AZ uses ERs also and it doesn't seem to have had an effect.
Arizona is a terrible example of the effects of any sort of punishment for EWI, since they hardly do anything to anybody for EWI. I ask you, how many apprehensions does it take for most stations in Arizona to Expeditiously Remove a Mexican alien? I?m not necessarily trying to go here, but you could make the claim that Arizona is hammered with illegals because they do so little to those that cross illegally. Moreover, the stations that first started using ER, before other stations were did see a drop in OTM crossings (the primary recipients of ER). Look at the level of OTM?s in Laredo sector immediately following the implementation of the ER program compared to prior levels as well as the levels of OTM crossings by those adjoining sectors that did not use ER (McAllen and Del Rio sectors).
 
ITS ABOUT REALITY.. PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP.
I live in los angeles.. we are doomed.. don;t let this happen to you. fight it with everything you have or you will end up like us.. :(
 
Los Angeles, when they brought in affirmative action.

This was in the 70's, there were a couple of the civilian worker's that were part of it, they were in the coffee room, discussing that in 25 years the city will be owned by the latinos and other minorities.

They felt that it was so great, "their time had come" was one of the things
mentioned.

Welcome to their world.

HQ
 
The 'baffle 'em with B.S' philosophy has become so predominant as to make many comments a rhetorical argument.;). So, as is my way, let's get to the nut cuttin'. If it's illegal, follow the law as to what punishment is.Quote from one of my Otoe-Missouria elders: "...I wish my ancestors would have built a wall...."
 
Me and the mother-in-law go back and forth with this almost daily (both of us on the same side). Here's my latest rant on the issue.

*****

I'm wondering just WHEN our "elected representatives" in government are going to start representing US for a change. After all, isn't that the primary reason they're in office? Oh, how naive of me to think an elected public official might be in place to handle the issues of the citizens that make up that public (I stress CITIZENS...). It brings something to mind we never hear much about anymore... "WE THE PEOPLE, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....." You know the words, carry on. I think the time is coming very soon when WE, THE PEOPLE are going to have to rein in the government that has grown to think it answers only to itself and make those responsible for representing our interests ACCOUNTABLE when they fail to do so. OUR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARE IN PLACE FOR ONE PURPOSE ALONE--TO TO UPHOLD, REPRESENT, PROTECT, AND CARRY OUT THE INTERESTS OF WE, THE PEOPLE---PERIOD. IF THEY CAN NOT DO THAT, WE HAVE NO USE FOR THEM. The "good ol' boys" club needs a good old-fashioned ass-kicking. Personal gain by authority of position needs to be removed from the top of their "DO" list.
 
Probably naive

A possible solution to the whole illegal immigration may be to improve the state of affairs in Mexico itself.

Sanction on an unparalled level until an unstable, bribe-driven society/government can be installed.

The illegal immigrants are fleeing an unworkable system in Mexico. Mexico is rife with underutilized natural resources, the least of which is the hard working ethos of its citizens. The problem is not the lack of border control, but the inefficiency of the Mexican government system. Take away the incentive at the root of the problem.

Make Mexico an extention of the US. Give US companies reason to relocate there. If no farms can be viable in an area, make it a US/Mexican garbage dump. Make coastlines private property, with incentives for American investors. Pair US needs with Mexican opportunities. Do we even have US military bases in Mexico? If not, why not? Why aren't more corporations investing money there? Why aren't we setting up educational systems there? Why are we not taking advantage of their resources? We are already giving the Mexican government subsidies in so many different forms and spending billions and billions without direct benefits! Spend that same money on education and development, not to just prop up an ineffective system.

Set up schools in Mexico to teach English instead of setting curriculum in the US to teach Spanish. Set up universities and high schools there. Bend Mexico to our needs, stop bending US policy to suit Mexican influences!
 
I agree, mexico needsto be changed before any of this can slow.but at the same time we need to change here as well.the idea that hiring an illegal alien is good for business needs to be changed.it is promoting ID theft,crime,draining of all our resources in way of healthcare,welfare,and people needed to control the border to keep the possible threats out- and a slap in the face to every company that has and does to abide by rules and regulations, not to mention american jobs that are being displaced to foreign competators...not because of laziness but because of profits in a crummy economy where production has increased and wages stagnated.

I dont see a solution,too many special interests feeding the people that pretend to fight the fight.mexico isnt going to change neither.itll always be a poor country.best bet would be enforce the laws we already have.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top