Redding sets of shell holders

[Unclenick]

It's pretty much a done deal IMHO.

That may be. It still appears to have evolved from misunderstanding, and it still seems intuitively silly to suggest a cartridge case wouldn't already have space for the head it's got (or for its rim, belt, shoulder, mouth or any other part of it), and wouldn't need more to accommodate itself, as headspace determines accommodation space. The brass in a cartridge case fills space, so maybe case chamberfill would be a more descriptive term. But as you suggest, unless it's coined by a widely read author, it's unlikely to catch on.

 

[F. Guffey]

Quote:
SAAMI does not even have a term for the distance from head to datum point...

But it very much does have a specific spec (sic ) as is often pointed out in its drawings ( Post #21 above)

Hereby ... and forevermore ... referred to as case headspace dimension.

I can understand a newbie jumping in and wanting to change everything, it is like the two members claiming one used the term before the other and therefore they want credit.

I warned reloaders years ago this was going to happen. L. Willis was not happy with me but no one understood how Google worked. I attended a class on how to manipulate the Internet. Most in attendants was not happy with me meaning most of you would have fit right in. The promoters wanted me to leave, problem; to attend everyone was to receive a prize. I made them a deal; give me my prize and I will leave, guess what? There was no prize so they had to tolerate me. No one had a clue (with one exception), to attend the evening class those that chose to participate had to fork over an additional $400.00 +/- a few.

And they wanted to know how I knew. As soon as I walked in and signed-up I knew when they did not give me my prize, For 3 hours I did my best Red Fox routine; like I would raise my hand and ask where the prizes were, I ask them when I was going to get the prize, I ask if I had to stay all day to get the prize. At then end of the morning cession they past out vouchers, all that was necessary to receive the prize was to add $15.00+ handling and then send to Salt Lake City Utah? to receive a prize valued at less than $4.00.

Hereby ... and forevermore ... referred to as case headspace dimension.

Before the internet I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. Before the Internet I sized cases to minimum length/full length sized. It was about this time I became the fan of cutting down on all that case travel; the travel of the case was determined by the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. For me it was a small step to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. Forget fire forming, I became a form first and then fire reloader.

And then there is always an 'and then' moment.* And then in a few hours I started working on ways to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. It took no more than three hours to develop 3 different methods and techniques that did nor require a head space gage. It took me 10 minutes to improve on the head space design.

* he tied her to the rail road tracks (and then) the train (and then) along came John, SWST John.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

No Guffy. I am working on a matter transfer device to transport an ex wife into center of a brick wall. As to case gauges?

gauges: I have a Machinery's Handbook, the book has been with us from 1915, if you want to put someone on a guilt trip contact them. I also have Data Books from Starrett that go back before WW1, same thing, no where in their data books or tool catalogs do they call their gages anything but gages.

My grandmother was not an addict, she did not drink or smoke, she did dip, I can not convince the family, that is their problem. She used Garrett in the small jars with the cork plug. Point? when she sent me to the store it was very clear she used the jar with the one dimple on the bottom. And then there was this prayer no one could miss; it hung on the wall at the front door. Pray for Wisdom.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

F. Guffy mentions:

gauges: I have a Machinery's Handbook, the book has been with us from 1915, if you want to put someone on a guilt trip contact them. I also have Data Books from Starrett that go back before WW1, same thing, no where in their data books or tool catalogs do they call their gages anything but gages.

I am truly happy that you have Machinery's Handbook. Yes, they printed more than your copy and the nice thing about Machinery's Handbook is that it really has not changed. I still work from a 16th Edition which is circa 1959.

Yes, in my book the spelling is gages and that said:

Gage is the spelling of an obsolescent word meaning a pledge, a challenge, etc.
Gauge is the spelling to use when you measure measurement, estimate, or standard.

The reference for the above being found here. Actually while either spelling can be used and they both are used it becomes a matter of dating oneself I guess. I may want to gage the performance difference between two cartridges or I may want to read a pressure gauge.

The end result here is people are going to refer to the subject of this discussion as a cartridge headspace gauge and you can accept it or discount it and cling to the SAAMI definitions. I have presented it both ways.

Ron

 

[F. Guffey]

The end result here is people are going to refer to the subject of this discussion as a cartridge headspace gauge and you can accept it or discount it and cling to the SAAMI definitions. I have presented it both ways.

You have not been listing/reading, I do not have my mind made but I believe you have chosen to ignore a lot if information. In the big inning reloaders purchased the case gage and then declared it was a drop in gage. And then? They got all giggly about gages that were named 'head space gages'. Problem, the gages they thought were head space gages were comparators. Some reloaders, once they understood the datum was a round hole went to their hardware store to purchase bushings. It was about the time reloaders started with "Here is what I do". Again, there ae precision holes and their are precision holes without a radius, late last month I passed on close to 200 pounds of datum making tools, first I had to purchases a cabinet and once I get set up with the cabinet I will return for the datum making tools.

I am not tunnel blind, the Wilson case gage was designed to measure the case in many different ways, the Wilson case gage can measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; for most reloaders that is about their limit, other reloaders with shop skills could say the Wilson case gage is a 4-in-1tool,'4-in-1 case gage.

I am the fan of knowing everything there is to know about a tool before purchasing another tool. As we know, there are reloaders that have purchases comparators thinking they were head space gages.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

I agree with you. There is little else that can be said on the subject. That said the fact I may not agree with a new general consensus is really here nor there. Yes, I understand what a datum is but again, it will not change anything. Yes, I understand the Wilson Case Gage (note I did say gage) but every time the subject comes up it gets beat to death leaving many that do not have a background of a mechanical engineer, draftsman, toolmaker or machinist wondering what was said and why a cartridge case does not have headspace. Like you I collect datums but unlike you I keep my datums in a glass jar right beside my glass jar of primers. I use smoked glass so sunlight won't weaken my datums or primers. Actually since I have more than one datum I guess I have data in the glass jar?

Have yourself a good day.

Ron

 

[F. Guffey]

I agree with you. There is little else that can be said on the subject.

I did not say that, I said there is a lot about the Wilson case gage a reloader does not understand. I do believe they have made a little progress, in the beginning the they thought it was a drop in gage.

Like you I collect datums but unlike you I keep my datums in a glass jar right beside my glass jar of primers

I doubt that, first, a reloader with datums is not fashionable, second, datums are ruff on jars.

F.Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

Mr Guffy, I'll tell you what. I have read countless post where you have brought up and pointed out the merits of the Wilson Case Gauge. We can even use the Wilson spelling and say gage. I agree with everything you have ever said about the gage. Rather than sing the praises of the gage why not do a small write up pointing out what we can learn from the gage, how to properly use the gage. How to use the gage in conjunction with a straight edge (like a simple pocket rule) and how the gage can be used along with for example feeler gages.

The same speech over and over again does absolutely nothing to help the new handloader unless you can tell them how to use a gage, any gage. Wilson this and Wilson that, for example:

I am not tunnel blind, the Wilson case gage was designed to measure the case in many different ways, the Wilson case gage can measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; for most reloaders that is about their limit, other reloaders with shop skills could say the Wilson case gage is a 4-in-1tool,'4-in-1 case gage.

The idea of a forum like this, to my way of thinking, is for a more experienced and senior shooter and hand loader to mentor the new younger (and some older) hand loaders on the way up. This means presenting material using images if necessary to demonstrate how to properly do something. Rather than say the Wilson case gage was designed to measure the case in many different ways would it not be better to describe the gauge, how to use the gage, and equally important point out what the gage will not measure, for example case diameter. Seems more logical to me as far as mentoring the new to reloading people.

Ron

 

[disseminator]

I second that. ^^^^^^^

After all, is this a thread on spelling and grammar, or is this about how to use a case headspace gauge? Cause I got some chambers to size.

 

[Unclenick]

Do you want to size a chamber or a case? The case comparators will help you with the latter. If you have a known value headspace gauge and use it to calibrate the comparator, you can get the headspace value indirectly from a newly fired case that transfers it to the comparator, and this will reflect the headspace, less around and about a thousandth of an inch or so, keeping in mind there is a bit of spring-back in the brass after the firing pressure is gone. A set of headspace gauges will help you determine what the size of the chamber is now, or will let you monitor your progress with a chamber reamer, or will let you set the headspace on a Savage type action.

 

[cw308]

Wendyj I'll bet your sorry for asking for suggestions.

 

[disseminator]

Unclenick,

I was kidding. I have all of those gauges you mentioned and know how to use them.

That said, I will always read a helpful post on the subject.

Especially if it's about Wilson case gage's. Since I am only a 2 out of 4 uses user apparently.

 

[F. Guffey]

and equally important point out what the gage will not measure, for example case diameter.

I said the Wilson case gage can be used to measure the diameter of the case, and then, I explained how difficult it would be to convince another reloaders how that is possible. I also said a reloader can make gages that measure the diameter of the case, after that I said I am convinced reloaders are convinced it can not be done. Some even feel threatened by the suggestion, I have no ideal what they are afraid of.

One more time; Wilson suggested a straight edge, I added the feeler gage and I said a flat surface like a set-up/lay-out table is faster. And then I ask; just how hard is it to find a flat surface? That should have eliminated the excuses, and we go back to the 'drop-in gage'.

Back to head space: I have ask many times why it is necessary to have a fist full of head space gages. Again, I made a shop call, the owner was building a period correct rifle with a 30/06 chamber; he handed me a box of 20 head space gages. And I asked: "What do you want to know? Do you want to know if the bolt will close on the gages or do you want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face? I offered to modify one of his gages but that would change the 'period correct' effect". His chamber was .0025" longer than a go-gage length chamber. Again, he had 100+ 03 bolts, none of them would reduce the length of the chamber .0025", I have 35 new/replacement bolts, I do not have a bolt that would reduce the length of the chamber .0025".

I explained to him I could measure the length of the chamber with any head space gage in thousandths, there was no shortage of tools, the nice thing? All of his bolts were stripped, I did offer to show him how he could check the bolts without installing them into the receiver.

I know, it is recommended a builder order a bucket of bolts 'just-in-case', I have never found the bucket of bolts as necessary, I have not found a seller of bolts that could measure a bolt.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

Mr. Guffy:

I said the Wilson case gage can be used to measure the diameter of the case, and then, I explained how difficult it would be to convince another reloaders how that is possible. I also said a reloader can make gages that measure the diameter of the case, after that I said I am convinced reloaders are convinced it can not be done. Some even feel threatened by the suggestion, I have no ideal what they are afraid of.

There would be the perfect example. Tell me and the class exactly how I can use my Wilson Case Gauges just like the picture I posted earlier to measure my case diameter. Can we use the .308 Winchester case gauge as an example? Telling the class it is possible and then failing to explain how sort of leaves everyone with the question of how?

From our friends at Wilson:

One piece gage that will check overall length to indicate the need for trimming, datum to head length to assure correct headspace and to prevent over sizing. Available for most popular rimless cases.
The Cartridge Case Gage was designed with safety in mind and was invented by our founder Sam (L.E.) Wilson in 1935 after a fellow shooter approached him for help in solving a case-separation issue. The gage allows you to see just how much you are sizing back your shoulder on your cases. This is best done by measuring a case in AS-FIRED condition. Take a measurement. Resize case on current die setting. Then place back in the gage to see just how much you are sizing the shoulder back. Finally, adjust sizing die accordingly. After sizing your cases, there is a good chance the brass will lengthen. The gage will also check min/max case length and will point out the need for case trimming. This is an essential tool for every reloader.

Note: Does not measure body diameters. This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and trimming.

Enquiring minds want to know. Also worth noting is where Wilson refers to each side of the gauge they do use the terms:
Headspace Side for the side the cartridge case is inserted and Case Length Side for the opposing side the neck will be visible in. So why does Wilson use those terms?

Ron

 

[higgite]

I said the Wilson case gage can be used to measure the diameter of the case, and then, I explained how difficult it would be to convince another reloaders how that is possible.

Note: Does not measure body diameters. This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and trimming.

Yeah, I was kinda wondering how it was going to measure the diameter of a resized case when a fired case would fit in it with room to spare.

 

[Reloadron]

higgite:

Yeah, I was kinda wondering how it was going to measure the diameter of a resized case when a fired case would fit in it with room to spare.

Beats the heck out of me? I keep looking at the gauge, the gauge looks back at me. The gauge shrugs and I shrug. I did a small write up on case gauges in another forum awhile back and while focusing on this type gauge I pointed out that while the gauge was a useful Go / NoGo type gauge it would not serve to measure case diameter as Wilson points out in their documentation. So if it is possible I would very much like to know how? That said a similar gauge is manufactured by Sheridan Engineering which produces the gauge to include a slotted and standard version. Sheridan seems to claim their gauge looks at all of the SAAMI specifications for loaded ammunition. I have not tried one and don't have one sitting here to accurately comment on. Should anyone here have one I would be curious as to how well these gauges perform and what they can tell the hand loader.

Ron

 

[Wendyj]

CW308. You are correct. I regret ever asking. I only wanted to know if the Redding she'll holders were worth the money for what I wanted them for. Setting my shoulders back on different brass with ought moving dies on different brass head stamps. More confused now than before. I have some Wilson gauges for 308 and 7 mag but not to dimensions of my rifles. I only used them when starting for trim length too long or too short.

 

[F. Guffey]

One piece gage that will check overall length to indicate the need for trimming, datum to head length to assure correct headspace and to prevent over sizing. Available for most popular rimless cases.

Try to understand I am not dealing with reloaders that have mastered the Wilson case gage. Again, I have a M1917 Eddystone that is stamped EK, it has a long chamber, the chamber is .016" longer than minimum length full length sized, factory over the counter ammo, for those that have trouble keeping up that is .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber. I do not trim the case to case length specifications, when measuring the length of the case I add .014". When using the Wilson case gage the .016" does not how up on the neck end of the gage.

datum to head length to assure correct headspace

Again, reloaders are infatuated with the phrase 'head space'. I have the length of the chamber, I have the length of the case and I have clearance. Back to the M1917, one more time, I form cases for the M1917 from 280 Remington cases, I simply adjust the 30/06 die off of the shell holder .014" to form cases that chamber with .002" clearance. And no, I do not use cases that have no life as a 280 Remington case, I use new and or once fired cases.

Forming 280 Remington cases is not necessary because the M1917 is not capable of driving the case to the shoulder before the primer is crushed. YES My M1917s have killer firing pins that are capable of crushing the primer before it's little buddies the case, powder and bullet knows what happened to it, reloaders have trouble keeping up with stretch and flow. They have a good grip on jump back, snap back spring back. I have fired cases once, there was no jump, snap or spring back, the cases could not remember what it was before I chambered it.

The Wilson case gage. When I measure a 280 Remington case in a 30/06 Wilson case gage the head of the case protrudes above the gage .046", after forming it protrudes .011". If my cases have too much jump, snap and or spring back I lower the die an additional .001", always looking for that magic .002" clearance.

I use a .014" thick feeler gage when adjusting the die off of the shell holder, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, I do not secure the lock ring to the die.

Back to the Redding shell holders: I have never found it necessary to grind the bottom of the die or top of the shell holder, I have always managed to raise the die to increase the length of the case body and raise the deck of the shell holder to size cases for short chambers and or increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

I do not believe I have ever dealt with people that were as desperate for attention as some of you with one exception. He left the big Christmas Military Ball screaming, hollering, waving and flailing his arms and using Gods name in vain; problem, Immediately after he left the building it was not God they came looking for. And then there were the ladies all pointing in the direction of the big melt down. You should have been there.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I have suggested for years the chamber gage designed was flawed because it is a rip off of the Wilson case gage. I have suggested the chamber gage should be designed with case head protrusion. I know, reloaders are confused at the suggestion the chamber gage is a chamber gage that matches their chamber. I would ask; "How can that be?"

Anyhow, I make chamber gages, all of my chamber gages have case head protrusion because I find the straight edge and feeler gage is a little awkward.

And now? I noticed Wilson is selling a new and improved gage with case head protrusion, the new and improved gage comes with a cap that fits over the case head and it comes with a dial indicator.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I have some Wilson gauges for 308 and 7 mag but not to dimensions of my rifles. I only used them when starting for trim length too long or too short.

Reloaders were confused when they moved to trimmers that set the case up on the shoulder meaning they held the case in their hand and wondered what that had to do with case length. It is possible a case has a long chamber from the datum to the bolt face, again, I have a chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length case and .011" longer than a go gage. If I measured the length of the case with a dial caliper I could get the illusion the case required a .016" trim.

F. Guffey