Redding sets of shell holders

[Reloadron]

WendyJ mentions:

I may be wrong but I use a headspace compareter to measure how far I've set the shoulders back on bottleneck cases. Oheir states there is no headspace on a cartridge. Maybe I'm using wrong words. I am wanting the 7 mag set for 7 mag 300 wsm 300 WM and 338 rum. Will also purchase the 308 for various pickup 30-06 -243 and 7-08 since they are all same she'll holder. Can't find a you tube video on them but it does make sense to set back .002 or whatever I need verses moving dies every time I change brass companies.

Understandable as T.OHeir mentions:

Shell holders have nothing whatever to do with headspace. Cartridges do not have headspace.

Maybe to make things a little clear we could look at a few definitions:

HEADSPACE:
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.
HEADSPACE GAGE:
A device used in a firearm to determine the distance between the breech face and the chamber surface on which the cartridge seats. Also called Breeching Plug.

Now if we look at a SAAMI Drawing of Cartridge and Chamber here is what we typically see:

{Ron, The SAAMI drawings all have a copyright notice at the bottom that you clipped. You need their written permission to post them here. Please see the board policy on posting copyrighted materials. Otherwise, you will need to redraw to the dimensions yourself.}

Looking at the cartridge dimensions there is no dimension labeled or called out as Headspace. However, the chamber dimensions clearly call out a headspace dimension. Additionally there are headspace gauges but they are not a gauge the average shooter sees or uses.

Headspace Gauges:

The headspace gauges are pictured on the right. Unfortunately over the years a good number of manufacturers have taken to calling gauges which measure cartridge dimensions headspace gauges. Many shooters have come to accept this practice and frequently refer to a "cartridge headspace gauge" and a "chamber headspace gauge". A simple Google of "headspace gauge" will bring up a collage of both types of gauges. The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge 5 Bushing Set with Comparator is a good example of how the terms are tossed around. Everybody wants to sell something.

Anyway, this is the issue with cartridges do not have headspace explained. I do not see the new terminology going away anytime soon so take it for what it is worth. I try to be specific when I use the terms and try to avoid using headspace gauge unless I actually am referring to a headspace gauge.

Ron

 

[F. Guffey]

In the big inning reloaders did not know the difference between a comparator and a gage.. Most continue to believe L. Wills made a digital head space gage.

And then there was the other concept; to avoid confusing anyone I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face and I determine the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. And still; everyone is confused.

And then there are transfers and standards, I am the only one that uses them.

F. Guffey

 

[disseminator]

So it seems the only thing unresolved here is whether or not contact with the shell-plate is needed for consistent sizing and concentricity.

I would say no based on the premise of the Forster Co-Ax press and competition dies that "float" on the cartridge.

On my interpretation of the original posters question regarding whether or not the Competition Shellpates are "worth it", I would say no.

But reloading companies gotta make money so......

 

[F. Guffey]

So it seems the only thing unresolved here is whether or not contact with the shell-plate is needed for consistent sizing and concentricity.

The story always goes something like: "I sized my cases and the bolt will not close bewcfause of these mean Ol' LC machine gun fired cases".

The response is always 'bump your shoulder, I always bump my shoulder .002" and no one knows the origin of the .002" bump (?). A reloader should know if the case was returned to minimum length (from the shoulder/datum to the case head) before lowering the ram. Anyhow a little or a lot of discipline would solve these problems.

One more time, ther is a good chance the case can have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome, I know; spring back sounds cute but for me there are time the case wins and the press looses.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I've never really got into shell holder's other than they are the right size or not.

I have, as gotten into shell holders and I have shell holders. MY favorite shell holder are RCBS. I will try to make that clear, I have shell holders, all of my shell holders are not RCBS. Again; I like RCBS shell holders because they fit like a hand-me down short, they fit where they touch. When using feeler gage to shorten the case for short chambers I can shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .012" with a feeler gage and a RCBS shell holder.

I have other shell holders, some of my other shell holders fit the case head, the fit eliminates the possibility of shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. One day I was asked to make a shop call. The builder/reloader of rifles wanted me t help him form cases for wildcats he was building. He wanted me to bring 'the other' #4 RCBS shell holder, instead of bring the other shell holder I threw a gasket cutting ball peen hammer in with the tools I knew he would need.

His cases would not fit his #4 RCBS shell holder because he had 2 sets of 20 cases that had been hammered with heavy loads. I could have thrown a few of my good fitting shell holders into the box but that would have created a bigger problem, that would have necessitated a bigger hammer.

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

Mr. Guffey

In the big inning reloaders did not know the difference between a comparator and a gage.. Most continue to believe L. Wills made a digital head space gage.

And then there was the other concept; to avoid confusing anyone I determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face and I determine the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. And still; everyone is confused.

And then there are transfers and standards, I am the only one that uses them.

F. Guffey

You really need to quit lumping all reloaders and hand loaders into the same lot. That is really a bad habit. This may surprise you but you are not the only reloader or hand loader with an understanding of geometric tolerance and you are not the only guy in town familiar with standards equipment and transfer standards verse standards. I would hope this comes as no surprise to you. You seem to make plenty of assumptions concerning those who roll their own. Now if you will excuse me I need to return to work on my matter transfer device and my digital headspace gauges. I would venture a rough guess that some hand loaders / reloaders actually went to school. Some may hold degrees in other than mechanical engineers but worked closely with mechanical engineers over a 40 year career in engineering to include geometric tolerance while working EE. Believe me when I say You are far from the only one using actual lab standards.

Thank You & Have A Nice Day
Ron

 

[cw308]

I try to keep things simple and accurate . With my Rem 700 I use the bolt with the plunger spring removed for case headspace & case head to ogive to rifling setting, all by feel.Then the precision mic from RCBS & the Redding comp. shell holder set of 5 works for me. Keep it simple. Will give you the exact starting point every time.

 

[F. Guffey]

I need to return to work on my matter transfer device and my digital headspace gauges

You purchased a L. Willis comparator thinking you were purchasing a head space gage?

F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

No Guffy. I am working on a matter transfer device to transport an ex wife into center of a brick wall. As to case gauges? Naw, I just wing it, close enough for government work and all. Oh wait, I actually understand gauges and geometric tolerance and standards and I am a reloader too. Go figure huh?

Ron

 

[Metal god]

So I've been reading this thread but I have two members blocked so I don't ever see what they write . I keep seeing others commenting on cases having or not having head space . I was thinking how did that get brought up in this thread .

Turns out it was me

Example . Let say I needed my case head space to be 1.630 ( 308 )

Well I'm sorry about that guys . I should have been more clear on my point and what I was measuring . Although MANY reloaders have adopted the term "case head space" to mean the distance from case head to datum point on a rimless bottle neck case . I do understand that the case does not have head space and in fact SAAMI does not even have a term for the distance from head to datum point . None the less I have found many reloaders to understand the term "case head space" as well as understand that it is completely different then "head space" .

How ever it does seem there are a few dinosaurs still out there that cling to there ancient terminology and refuse to except new words and diffinitions where there were none into there vocabulary . All I can say to that is language does evolve over time and the future waits for nobody Either poop or get off the pot

 

[mehavey]

SAAMI does not even have a term for the distance from head to datum point...

But it very much does have a specific spec (sic ) as is often pointed out in its drawings ( Post #21 above)

Hereby ... and forevermore ... referred to as case headspace dimension.

 

[Metal god]

But it very much does have a specific spec

and that IMHO is the problem . There is a spec in the drawing and yet no universal or agreed upon term to use . I think it was slamfire that said he had been using the term case headspace for 10+ years and I've been using it for about 5yrs . That came about because I got sick of writing out "the measurement from head to datum line" then having to explain what that was . It just seemed easier to write case headspace instead . Everybody knew/knows what headspace is . If you add the word case to it , to me would seem logical you're referring to the case measurement that corresponds to the chambers headspace . YMMV

The term head clearance to me means the extra space if any left in the chamber when the cartridge is loaded . So lets say your headspace is 1.636 and your case headspace is 1.630 . That leaves you with a head clearance on .006

At least that's how I've been using those terms

 

[F. Guffey]

I think it was slamfire that said he had been using the term case headspace for 10+ years and I've been using it for about 5yrs

Reloaders are infatuated with the term 'head space'; 60+ years ago Wilson designed a gage, they named the gage 'case length gage', I was impressed. Again, the tool is a datum based tool. The case does not have head space and Wilson knew that.

At the same time presses were being built, some of the presses cammed over, the cam over presses were identified as 'bump' presses. Today reloaderes are claiming they can bump the shoulder of the case and I ask; "How is that possible?" I ask because I find it impossible to move/bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Case length? The Lee book on modern reloading list case drawing, the drawings include the case length from the datum to the case head. The drawings do not include the diameter of the datum and Lee did not include instructions on how a tool was to be used when measuring the case length from the datum to the case head.

The Wilson case gage measured the length of the case the end of the neck to the case head, it measures the length of the case from the datum to the case head, it measures the length of the case from the datum to the end of the neck; so you guys got together and decided it was a case head space gage?

This reminds me of an old fable about the elephant and 6 men that had never seen an elephant.

http://www.constitution.org/col/blind_men.htm


F. Guffey

 

[Reloadron]

A simple Google of Headspace Gauge and visit to Midway brings up the following: Click Here. Even L.E. Wilson now refers to their gauge as L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gauge. Well not quite as that is Midway's choice of words. L.E. Wilson refers to their gauge as a Wilson Case Gauge.

The change in terms has become popular and the general consensus has become Cartridge Headspace Gauge or Chamber Headspace Gauge and the fact that a cartridge does not have a headspace dimension seems to matter not. For those who like to make this argument over and over please do have at it. I just see it as a moot point anymore but do feel new reloaders who question it deserve an explanation which is understandable. Thus I use the marked up drawing.

Nice day so I think I'll take a bike ride.

Ron

 

[F. Guffey]

I think it was slamfire that said he had been using the term case headspace for 10+ years and I've been using it for about 5yrs

A simple Google of Headspace Gauge and visit to Midway brings up the following:

And a simple search of the box the Wilson case gage came in should have led the proud owner of the case gage to the instructions. I have one old set with instructions that have a printed date of 1953. What does that mean? I have to be one of the few that read the instructions because I am one of the few that did not look down my nose at the tool and refer it as a 'drop-in-gage'. Amd then there is the precision of the tool, Wilson suggested using a straight edge; I suggested using a feeler gage; and then there was that short leap from the straight edge to the flat surface; the flat surface technique is faster and less awkward but remember, I knew it was a waste of time when talking to the choir.

The Wilson case gage is also a trim length gage. That process was most difficult for most reloaders; why? because of the 'measure before and again after when using a comparator. Reloaders have a hang up on stretch and flow; If the case stretches I want to know where the stretch took place, after I determine where I determine why. If my cases increase in length from the shoulder to the case head when fired I can add the amount of increase in length to the length of the case.
And as always I use my M1917 Eddystone chamber as an example. The chamber in that rifle is long from the shoulder to the bolt face. How Much? The chamber is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case . Not a problem; When forming cases for that chamber I increase the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .014". What does that give me? By increasing the distance of the case from the shoulder to the case head .014" I have the magic .002" clearance.

Where did the magic .002" clearance come from?

And now back to trimming; it would be mindless for a reloader to trim the case to SAAMI length. Think about it, my chamber in my M1917 Eddystone is not SAAMI's chamber. It is my chamber.

I was the second person to use the term 'case head space gage'?

There was a member that made all types of claims, one day he claimed he invented? the term 'deck height', another member said he did a search and then refined the search and discovered the claimer was no where near the internet when the term appeared. I thought the member making the claim would require medical attention.

Now that you guys are claiming discoveries you need to determine the origin of the matching shell holder, matching as in to the brand of die. I hear old wife's? stories about using Redding shell holders with Redding dies and the same story can be found when using RCBS equipment. I have always measured the deck height of the shell holder, if the deck height of the shell holder is .125" that is all it can do.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I said reloaders are infatuated with the term 'head space'. Adding the term head space between case and gage gage does not make the case gage a head space gage ( but it is another way to crowd the phrase head space in one more time). I have always though reloaders should measure before and again after, that would be before firing and again after firing. If the reloaders formed good habits and measured before and again after they could use the case gage as a comparator.

It is not my intent to break anyone's brain but if the reloader measured before and again after they could learn to determine where the stretch happened. Problem; reloaders have rifles that have firing pins that drive the case forward, reloaders that have firing pins that drive the case forward are out of luck; yes out of luck unless they can find help from someone in the chair or choir.

F. Guffey

 

[mehavey]

Adding the term head space between case and gauge gauge
does not make the case gauge a head space gauge ....

Agreed.
It makes it a case headspace gauge.

But I'll bend just this one time... and consent to 'case headspace comparator'.

 

[Unclenick]

…But that probably is the source of the confusion. Headspace is space in the chamber for the case head brass originally. Now it is space in the chamber for whatever the brass stopping surface it is that determines headspace in chambers for the cartridge in question. But when RCBS came out with the Precision Mic to produce a transfer measurement of headspace via the fireformed case, the confusion began. Then Stoney Point added case comparator inserts for their caliper adapter (later sold to Hornady) to let you determine headspace the same way, and soon everyone measuring their cases thought they were directly measuring headspace rather than doing it indirectly via the case serving as the transfer gauge. So now the difference is in the vernacular.

Some time back I asked folks to come up with a better term, but nothing conclusive came out of it. Case datum length was one of the suggestions. The problem with head-to-shoulder, is some cases don't headspace on the shoulder, but they do all headspace on something (shoulder, belt, mouth, rim). Maybe something like datum-head would work. I still don't like how any of them roll off the tongue.

 

[Metal god]

The thing I see with trying to choose a name/term is you need to get everyone to agree with that name/term . That's not how terms are agreed to . Society as a whole agrees to use them by slowly adopting them in everyday conversation . It generally takes years if not decades to take hold as case or cartridge headspace has . How ever with the internet things do tend to move quicker now .

Example , Here are some words that mean something totally different now or are used to describe something totally different then they originally did .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...they-did-pre-internet/?utm_term=.2c3d91934309

Now I use a few of those words in both context and at times I may have wondered how a particular word changed but I never cried about it every time someone used it in a way I was not familiar with . Some how though "headspace" is some sort of commandment even when adding other words to it . It some how can only mean one thing even when adding a word (case) to it and that case has direct interaction with headspace .

I really think the term is ultimately going to be either case or cartridge headspace . To many people use the term and manufactures are using it as well . It's pretty much a done deal IMHO . Either poop or get off the pot !

 

[Reloadron]

I see things this way and have for years. When someone is talking about a cartridge or case and headspace manages it way into the conversation I know what they are talking about, I know which case measurement or dimension they are talking about just like when the term "bump the shoulder back" is used. So as long as I or anyone else knows what someone is speaking of how much does it really matter if it does not exactly coincide with the SAAMI Glossary of Terms? I am not about to stop the conversation and point out that a cartridge does not have a headspace dimension.

While Wilson does not refer to their gauge as a cartridge headspace gauge and clearly prints on the box "Cartridge Case Gauge" the people marketing and selling the gauge refer to it as a "L.E. Wilson Case Length Headspace Gauge" followed by a caliber.

Again, I am not about to lose any sleep over the term cartridge or case headspace gauge as I know what is being implied. Cartridge or Case Headspace Gauge or Chamber Headspace Gauge? As long as we know and understand what the gauge is and how it is used then does it really matter?

Ron