Reason why its hard to believe competition doesn't count in SD Situations

Practice, and competition are great places to develop your skills. How you carry, draw, load, and grip the gun, move, and utilize cover. If however you want to learn to deal with stress, I would suggest taking up a fighting sport, like Boxing, or some other fighting style that will allow you to fight hard, and learning how to deal with the physical response of facing unscripted danger, and think/ act while mixing it up.
 
In my first in ring experience, at a Catholic Boxing Club, in England, I was 15 yoa.

Because I was big for my age, 5'10", I was paired up with a boxer, who was going pro! His Brother and I had been in a fight at School, a week prior.

We both were real marked up, shook hands, he convinced me to join Lowe House Boxing Club. (I was not good in our fight!)

My School Buddy, Cunningham, told his Brother we were mates!
But I knew I was in for a beating!

The referee, a Priest, gave the ring warnings, no hitting below the belt, etc.

As a survivalist (if there is such a word) my plan was simple, I shot off the ropes, flew across the ring, and punched my opponent in the throat!

That was the end of that match, almost did Cunny in! Picked up some good training in that little club. Polished all points, as a part time Bouncer in Liverpool, 5 years. Biggest one, watching. Second, hit first.
 
I am of the opinion that anything (including competitions like IPSC and IPDA) that requires me to become proficient with my pistol under stress is a good thing when it comes to SD shootings.
 
One simple question

I have one question with a long build up .

Ok you have twin brothers ( or clones ). They are exactly the same , exept in one way . They have all the same life experiences but one of them has been shooting competition for years The other has never picked up a gun in his life .

You see the bad guy. You see a gun in his hand, the hammer back, his finger on the trigger. He sees you. He raises his gun as he turns in your direction. In the next half-second, you are probably going to die.

Now, in THAT SPECIFIC situation, at THAT specific moment:

Your brain will shut down. You will NOT think.

You will stop breathing.

Your vision will narrow, and it will be difficult to scan your visual field and focus.

You will hear sounds and voices if they are present, but you will not be able to mentally process them.

Your body will stiffen, and your conscious control of your muscles will be dramatically reduced.

Your pulse and blood pressure will instantly skyrocket.

Now... in THAT state... in THAT half-second... what are you going to do?
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Which brother do you want in a gun fight ? At any range .

.
 
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"... one of the has been shooting competition for years The other has never picked up a gun in his life ..."
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Kind of a false dichotomy, duncha think? I think we'd all agree that someone with significant trigger time would fare better than someone without any at all ... assuming that the problem can be solved by shooting.

And that's the real rub now, isn't it? "Self Defense" embodies a whole lot of things which don't necessarily have anything to do with weapons skills. It's very easy to see everything as a gun fight, because we all have an affinity in that regard.

The brother who has been shooting competition for years ... he's probably not been using cover effectively or having any concern for rounds coming back the other way. That's not the way he has "trained" ... for years. Is he suddenly going to "rise to the occasion" or reflexively do what he has been doing over-n-over-n-over? Is this a quickdraw competition? Can he outdraw a gun already pointed in? I doubt it.

The question is not one of whether or not competition is of benefit. Clearly it is. The issue is more to the effect of what benefits are gained, and what potential problems should be guarded against owning to possibly inculcating a competition mindset versus one better suited to self defense?
 
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zombietactics, you assume a type of competition that does not require use of cover. IDPA, for one example, does.
 
MLeake said:
zombietactics, you assume a type of competition that does not require use of cover. IDPA, for one example, does.
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No, I observe that USPSA/IPSC does not requires the use cover at all. IDPA uses cover, just not effectively, IMHO. Crowding up to cover and having as much as 50% of one's body exposed is not a good way to "get home alive" from my perspective.

Aside from the above example, there is a marked difference in mindset and tactics. What do I shoot in competition? A clearly marked target. When do I shoot it? Either a) When I want to, or b) in the order determined by an arbitrary set of rules. What do I shoot in reality? Maybe nothing at all. Maybe something clearly defined or not so clearly defined. I shoot (or not) in whatever order and at whatever distance the threat presents itself. When do I shoot? When the dynamically unfolding situation determines I should.

If you take my meaning clearly, it is not a criticism of competition, only of doing nothing else, and perhaps thereby adopting a mindset and set of skills not so well suited to surviving.

In any case where the solution to "the problem" is limited to simply shooting quickly and accurately, the skilled competitor has a supreme advantage. In all others, something else/more is required.
 
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I must admit I have not read all the post . I have read about 80 percent of them . None of the post I have read including the original post ask's , if any other firearms training is more beneficial to your over all experience or ability to use a gun in a stressful situation then shooting competition .I will admit I would take a navy seal over the brother with competition experience every time . IMHO If the question is anything more then does shooting in competition give you an avantage in a gun fight . ( full stop ) nothing more added or assumed . You open the hole debate up for to many assumtions and what if's .:)
 
One of the problems faced by anyone considering this question is that the more you read about it, the more conflicting opinions one will find. One magazine writer several years ago suggested that neither military exprience nor hunting experience (sucessful hunting, I presume) adds much to one's self-defense capability. I wonder about the first claim, not so much about the other.

Zombietactics response is good. Participants in some competitions have complained that often the rules are highly artificial and nonsensical in some of the details, or so they say. Yet I'm sure they are better than nothing. I still wonder if any competition can prepare one's self for the ultimate challenge, which is not winning the gunfight but rather being mentally prepared to kill someone. That is not to say that winnng the gunfight is not important, only that the fact that this is about killing someone seems to be either ignored or assumed away. Naturally, this is only a problem to the good guys reading this forum. The bad guys reading this forum have probably already come to grips with that dilemma.
 
BT, given the number of LEOs and veterans in the forum, I imagine a fair number of good guys have come to grips with the concept, too.
 
Being in a Club, after midnight, in any City, puts you in more of a location (Minus your CCW) to get killed by gunfire, than practically any other place.

So smart locations are good, always carrying a Hi Cap pistol is good, shooting a sport like IDPA can not be bad either.

Spending your formative years in inner City's? Anywhere, can't be bad either.

Having a person with you, who you would die for? Turns you in to a very dangerous individual when threat comes to visit. With or without a gun.
 
"Spending your formative years in inner City's? Anywhere, can't be bad either."
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True words. I was fortunate (?) to spend most of my early adult work life in places like East Oakland and South Stockton. I did not realize the advantage this experience provides until much later in life.
 
One of the problems faced by anyone considering this question is that the more you read about it, the more conflicting opinions one will find. One magazine writer several years ago suggested that neither military exprience nor hunting experience (sucessful hunting, I presume) adds much to one's self-defense capability. I wonder about the first claim, not so much about the other.
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I do believe my past military training and combat experience has added to my self defense capability and has allowed me to overcome the mental problems associated with taking another persons life. Does military experience prepare everyone, No! As we all know many people that experience a traumatic experience don't have the ability to overcome the experience and suffer from the effects the remainder of their lives.
 
If you have IDPA type firearms skill, then you would certainly apply alot of that skill in a real defensive situation. How well you apply it would greatly depend on your level of common sense and measure of personal grit.

Wrestling is not combat and it isnt martial arts. Could a person who is a good wrestler manage to implement a wrestling move as part of a real defense? Sure he could. Could a wrestler be a dangerous person to engage in a physical confrontation, Sure. Could a IDPA master be a dangerous person to engage in a gun fight? Sure.
 
I assume you're referring to wrestling as a sport as in school. However, I have heard it said that boxers can be difficult people to deal with, or words to that effect, because they're used to pain.
 
Using the same pistol, and holster you carry, for IDPA competition. Means you have drawn and fired, from concealment a lot. When you see new members gear? And see it change as they get smart, and more experienced, you are then miles ahead in the ability to deploy your defensive equipment.

That in it's self can't be bad. Reading the NRA Magazine, lets you know the use of self defense places, house or dwelling, a lot!

It also shows many instances where people are shot at, from close up... And are not hit. So, a good pistol, night sights, a flash light close at hand, and practice on the range, picking up you pistol to fire, not the same as from a holster.

Many articles talk of the trauma of shooting someone? It sure as heck beats being shot!
 
Watching some new IDPA folks with atrocious grips, terribly slow reloads, clueless on malfunctions and complete misses on easy targets - I think skills practice speaks for itself.

More power to them for coming out and we are a very supportive group. We had some new to the group LEOs (not the above) who thought it was very useful as they officially shoot twice a year.
 
Glen, So many LEOs attend IDPA, and do not come back, made to feel not welcome.

That is such a pity, we as shooters with years of experience, can help (and not being seen as condescending) as you say, shooting twice a year is not really adequate.
 
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