Real ID = Real destruction of freedom...

REAL ID is an essential part of dealing with illegal immigration. Let's hear the proposals for a better idea.
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How about heavy fines and/or jail for those who knowingly hire illegals? Cut off the reason they come here in the first place. Plus, actually secure the borders so that illegals & potential terrorists (remember Ft.Dix?) can't just saunter in. But requiring heavy-handed ID of US citizens??? ("It's for your own good", "We need it to stop illegals/terrorists", "It will make you safer", "Your papers, please...") No thanks, the cure is worse than the disease...
Tomac
 
RealID is just like gun control - it will mainly affect the people who aren't breaking the law.
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That has a certain crackle to it, but I don't think it's true. If counterfeiting is adequately addressed by the technology, illegals will lose the incentive to be here, lacking the privileges that the ID card affords.

Um ... guarding the borders, perhaps ?????
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Well sure, but who thinks that is a complete answer or can ever approach 100%, and it doesn't deal with those already here.
 
If counterfeiting is adequately addressed by the technology, illegals will lose the incentive to be here, lacking the privileges that the ID card affords.
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And if employers don't bother to check ID in order to get cheap under-the-table labor, then what? We're back to square one...
Tomac
 
No thanks, the cure is worse than the disease
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That's where I think those who have much to say about illegal immigration and against the need for conclusive ID cannot be the same people with any credibility. Without the ID, all the other measures will be full of loopholes.

The real problem in going after employers is that they are not accountable for fake ID and may not even be required to ask for it. Aside from it being a good point for those intending to follow the law, one of the major excuses for avoiding prosecution needs to be removed.

The biggest problem I see in over reliance on border security, is that we would have to have clearance to shoot or blow up people, children included. Wiser folks have more comprehensive approaches to the grander problem, focusing on disincentives of an economic nature and clearly a desire to know who is eligible for a free bus ride to a deportation point.

I don't know what the valid numbers are, but something like 11-20 million people are in the US who don't have any such entitlement. Border security does not address those numbers, but obviously if wanting to clean up after a flood, one might first want to stem the flow.

The key word with illegal immigration plans is "comprehensive". Nevertheless there will be a logical order in which steps need to be taken.
 
That's where I think those who have much to say about illegal immigration and against the need for conclusive ID cannot be the same people with any credibility. Without the ID, all the other measures will be full of loopholes.
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Define "conclusive ID". I have my birth certificate, passport & driver's license. Is that conclusive enough? If not, can I use them to obtain Real ID? Can any/all of them be forged? If so, what's to keep any illegal from obtaining forged documents and using them to obtain Real ID or any other form of "conclusive ID"?
Employers will continue to hire "cheap labor" w/a wink and a nod until such a time as it becomes more expensive/legally dangerous to hire illegals than not. Why not require employers to either check ID (proof of legal residency?) or forward such information to the state/fed govt to be checked/verified? Again, couple w/fines for anyone who knowingly hires illegals. Remove the incentive to come here in the first place and the flow into our country will reverse itself.
Comprehensive solution? Agreed, there is no single solution to this problem but we must find a way to secure our borders (again, 100% is impossible but our current state of border security is a travesty), deal w/the illegals already here w/o rewarding them (remember, they are foreign nationals who have entered our country illegally) and develop a way that deters others from entering illegally *without* infringing on lawful US citizens.
Tomac
 
And if employers don't bother to check ID in order to get cheap under-the-table labor, then what? We're back to square one...
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If you have addressed the ease with which ID can be faked and required employers to demonstrate that they verified ID, they lose their excuse, and raids/prosecutions have some chance of success. The card closes a loophole. There is a reason why there are few publicized prosecutions.
 
If you have addressed the ease with which ID can be faked and required employers to demonstrate that they verified ID, they lose their excuse, and raids/prosecutions have some chance of success. The card closes a loophole.
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You didn't address my previous question: What form(s) of current ID will be used to obtain Real ID? Whether or not Real ID can be faked, can faked current ID be used to obtain Real ID? If so, how do you prevent it? If not (ie: faked ID will always be caught) then why do we need Real ID?
Tomac
 
Define "conclusive ID". I have my birth certificate, passport & driver's license. Is that conclusive enough? If not, can I use them to obtain Real ID? Can any/all of them be forged? If so, what's to keep any illegal from obtaining forged documents and using them to obtain Real ID or any other form of "conclusive ID"?
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I can't speak for how difficult or easy it will be to get a REAL ID card. I can share the anecdote about how I started collecting Social Security. I was required to present the original of my birth certificate along with other ID. The county courthouse for the city referenced on that birth certificate could be contacted for verification. There was certainly nothing instant about it. I got later confirmation that all was in order.

There was also real effort to verify mailing address because of where payments would be sent. I my case, I arranged for direct deposit. I guess I would say that, if one is serious about verifying someones identity, they can do a pretty good job of it. Having that done centrally as an ID card makes it possible to impose standards of acceptance of the fundamental forms of ID and saves anyone else from having to deal with verification.

I expect that one who holds a passport would have encountered a similar process.

I have to assume that an insistence upon absolute perfection is just an argument against the whole concept, no response making any difference in ones position. Personally, I would feel as though if I was against an ID program, I would be against dealing with illegal immigrants, those already here, even against holding employers responsible.
 
Personally, I would feel as though if I was against an ID program, I would be against dealing with illegal immigrants, those already here, even against holding employers responsible.
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I'm not aware that the lack of the existence of a universal national ID is inhibiting the arrest and deportation of illegal aliens. At least not to anywhere near the degree that the lack of enforcement efforts and the will to do so is.

So what is the next step: roadblocks all across the country and automatic deportation of anyone who cannot immediately produce a "RealID" ...? Is that really where you want us to go? ("papers please" then being no longer a bad joke)

And yes, actually I am against "holding employers responsible" - why should employers bear the cost of enforcing the law? Especially laws that our govt won't even enforce through adequate border security and vigorous deportation of arrested illegal aliens.

What we are really going to end up with is the worst of both worlds: unchecked illegal immigration AND police state tyranny.
 
So what is the next step: roadblocks all across the country and automatic deportation of anyone who cannot immediately produce a "RealID" ...? Is that *really* where you want us to go? ("papers please" then being no longer a bad joke)
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Strawman.
 
And yes, actually I am against "holding employers responsible" - why should employers bear the cost of enforcing the law? Especially laws that our govt won't even enforce through adequate border security and vigorous deportation of arrested illegal aliens.

What we are really going to end up with is the worst of both worlds: unchecked illegal immigration AND police state tyranny.
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I agree that employers shouldn't bear the cost of enforcing the law. However, I believe they should be held responsible for knowingly violating the law.
Also agreed that our govt isn't enforcing current laws, thus forcing state/local govts to try and solve the illegals problem at their level (and in many cases being told "you can't do that, only the Federal govt can").
Wouldn't unchecked illegal immigration and police state tyranny benefit those in power?...
Tomac
 
RealGun here's a few questions for you...

It's no secret that the feds want later versions of RealID to have tracking chips and other biometrics information on ALL citizens carrying the card. Why should the government have a right to know where I'm going? ESPECIALLY if I'm a LAW ABIDING citizen? Why should I be tracked like an animal in order to be "free and safe"? Plus with the millions of illegals in this country already, it'd be very difficult to have them leave. So am I to believe that this is for the "good of the people"? Mind you we are dealing with the same crock pot of idiots who did NOT close the damn doors on 9/11 yet swiftly approved of extraordinary rendition, the Patriot Act, and other such rules that state it's okay to incriminate your own people and that it's okay to torture human beings. As for guarding borders, you don't have to shoot everyone walking near your fence. If illegal immigration was an issue the government actually cared about, it would've been solved a long time ago. If homeland security was such a big deal to them, the borders would've been closed on 9/11. If Real ID is truly about illegal immigration, then explain why those here legally are required to have the tracking chip in future updates of Real ID and not the illegals who can't/won't get it. You know what, I'd much rather deal with illegals than a tyranny driven government, at least they are easier to deal with than the bureaucracy. :barf::barf::barf:


Epyon
 
I agree that employers shouldn't bear the cost of enforcing the law. However, I believe they should be held responsible for knowingly violating the law.
Also agreed that our govt isn't enforcing current laws, thus forcing state/local govts to try and solve the illegals problem at their level (and in many cases being told "you can't do that, only the Federal govt can").
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To prosecute, you have to have a good case. Without solid ID requirements, I think you are left with prosecuting only the most blatant of cases, perhaps only tokens that would get some press.
 
Epyon, I will join forces with those against an implementation that has no real justification. For now, I concede that who is a "law abiding citizen" cannot be known without good ID and a premise to ask for its presentation.
 
The biggest threat to the security of RealID is the people running it. All you have to do is find the right person and have enough money. $10,000 in exchange for 10 "RealID's", that would be darn tempting for a clerk with financial problems. We already have that happening with regular state ID's, though on a limited basis.

What happens when you have a disgruntled employee who then takes and puts millions of peoples ID's online. Etc.

I worked with databases extensively in school. I even visited the data center at the local hospital. The person giving the tour emphasized that there is not and never can be a "centralized database" of such complexity. There is no single piece of software that can do it well. The best you can hope for is many specialized databases, software that can query these databases, and then compile a report on a person.

Even the simplest database becomes incredibly complex and burdened when you either have A) A large number of data entry's B) A large number of data fields. There will be no choice but to have separate databases that are compiled together by software to generate a report on a person. These separate databases will, over time, have errors creep in and become so complex that even these seperate databases will themselves have to be split into separate databases.
 
I worked with databases extensively in school. I even visited the data center at the local hospital. The person giving the tour emphasized that there is not and never can be a "centralized database" of such complexity.
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I think you are referring to how ID information might be used/misused. The tinfoil hat scenarios are not fact. Simply validating an ID card would not be much of a technical challenge.
 
Quote:
So what is the next step: roadblocks all across the country and automatic deportation of anyone who cannot immediately produce a "RealID" ...? Is that *really* where you want us to go? ("papers please" then being no longer a bad joke)

Strawman.
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Not at all. Just HOW is the RealID supposed to have a significant impact on illegal aliens? If we won't make the effort to deport known IAs right now, how will the new ID make it any different???

I guess the basic difference is that you seem to trust the fed.gov and I don't anymore. I've watched them over five decades now, and all that I can see is continued screw-ups, dereliction of duty, and grabs at more power and control by whomever is currently in power. Oh yeah, and of course their inexcusable past failures thereby entitle them to more money and more power to supposedly "fix" the problems they have created. No thanks. :(
 
I guess the basic difference is that you seem to trust the fed.gov and I don't anymore.
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If a strawman doesn't work, try a red herring, maybe a touch of ad hominem for good measure. If one just hates the government in general as some evil monolith, there is nothing I can say to satisfy.
 
RG, if the govt refuses to enforce existing immigration laws how will additional laws and/or ID requirements improve matters (will they suddenly start enforcing the new laws)?
Tomac
 
RG, if the govt refuses to enforce existing immigration laws how will additional laws and/or ID requirements improve matters (will they suddenly start enforcing the new laws)?
Tomac
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I already addressed that. I believe there is a problem in prosecuting cases with loopholes in the identification requirements. I think Real ID is partly a way to remove employers' excuses or to make reasonable demands on them. You also cannot conduct raids without a sound basis for detaining anyone. There is no way to "prove' in the moment that one is not legal.

In other words, I would expect to see a lot more enforcement BECAUSE OF REAL ID.
 
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