Real ID = Real destruction of freedom...
- Thread starter Epyon
- Start date
I'm not sure if it's true but I heard that real id is in this new amnesty bill.
edit: here we go http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=42007
edit: here we go http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=42007
Slugthrower
New member
Freedom...Care to name under which power (Art. I Sect. 8) the Congress has authority to mandate a national I.D.?Redworm said:
Granted, we already have a de facto I.D. in our State issued DL's and such, but it's not required to possess in order to get a job. To board a plane. In short, to prove you are who you say you are... And it's a State issue, not a Federal issue.
The Federal Government, in my opinion, has no grant of power or authority to legislate national compliance with mandated I.D.'s.
As to how it may endanger you, personally... Are you really comfortable with a Federally "secured" database of all your data? Can you say, identity theft? Yeah, kinda thought you could.
Do you agree that you have the right to seek gainful employment (yes, you do, but you are not guaranteed a job)? Under the Real ID Act of 2005, you can not hold a job without this national I.D. Under the proposed immigration act, even should you posses the I.D., the EEVS can deny you (another Federally "secured" database). Further, under this immigration act, you have no recourse to correct any problems stemming from a false positive "hit" in the database. The Courts are forbidden to adjudicate any problems with the EEVS. There is no civil procedure you can take to rectify the problem. That's called lack of Procedural Due Process... but again, the courts can't touch it.
Without Real I.D., you cannot fly. You can be denied access to any Federal building or Courthouse. There has already been talk of expanding Real I.D. to bus and train terminals. Are you sure you can cross a State line in your private vehicle? OK, that may be a reach... Maybe. They can certainly mandate it for interstate truckers via DOT regulations.
How long after the implementation of the Act will it take for the BATF&E to post a regulation prohibiting firearms transfers to anyone not having a Real I.D.?
And these are just off the top of my head.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
THAT is the biggest problem with the law - the lack of readily-accessible, speedy appeals channels for mistakes is a wholly unacceptable state of affairs. Very frightening.
The first stage of REAL ID already passed. I thought it was a great idea, certainly at face value. I would rather not be asked for ID, but it wouldn't be anything new to me, and I can well see its merit once given an environment wherein many people are here illegally. I don't have a better idea and haven't heard one.
Now, one thing I don't appreciate is how it was implemented, or will be. The manner in which Congress found authority is quite distasteful. It wouldn't be the first time that chicanery was used to change this country. The measure itself was voted on late at night with few members present in the Senate. I am not a fan of the income tax, from which State appropriations are drawn and which gives them the leverage to force States to comply. Having said that, I am in favor generally of the US being able to act as a unit, especially in terms of my taking my rights with me when I cross State lines. A matter of national interest should logically come from Congress. If they can't do that gracefully, then they can darned well change the Constitution or invoke the 14th Amendment where applicable.
If I have to show my Real ID to purchase a gun, so what? It will be the de facto standard form of identification anyway. Was I not required to provide identification in the past?
The whole idea of "show your papers" is when a country is full of people whose status is in question. That is exactly what we face with illegal immigration. Since profiling is unacceptable, everybody gets to show their ID, simple as that. Who's to say what a true American looks like or who should be accepted without question?
Before you can do something about illegal immigration, you have to, by the process of elimination, know who is already here and have the means to discourage others from coming illegally.
The card itself is not any destruction of freedom. What would be a destruction of freedom would be a full implementation that included misuse of a database of information associated with the ID numbers and using that database to track a citizen's every move, requiring more and more points where presentation of ID was required. We already have a lesson in the Social Security Number, which is used far beyond the scope of original intent.
I can worry as much as the next person about where it is all headed, but I am not going to hyperventilate just yet.
Now, one thing I don't appreciate is how it was implemented, or will be. The manner in which Congress found authority is quite distasteful. It wouldn't be the first time that chicanery was used to change this country. The measure itself was voted on late at night with few members present in the Senate. I am not a fan of the income tax, from which State appropriations are drawn and which gives them the leverage to force States to comply. Having said that, I am in favor generally of the US being able to act as a unit, especially in terms of my taking my rights with me when I cross State lines. A matter of national interest should logically come from Congress. If they can't do that gracefully, then they can darned well change the Constitution or invoke the 14th Amendment where applicable.
If I have to show my Real ID to purchase a gun, so what? It will be the de facto standard form of identification anyway. Was I not required to provide identification in the past?
The whole idea of "show your papers" is when a country is full of people whose status is in question. That is exactly what we face with illegal immigration. Since profiling is unacceptable, everybody gets to show their ID, simple as that. Who's to say what a true American looks like or who should be accepted without question?
Before you can do something about illegal immigration, you have to, by the process of elimination, know who is already here and have the means to discourage others from coming illegally.
The card itself is not any destruction of freedom. What would be a destruction of freedom would be a full implementation that included misuse of a database of information associated with the ID numbers and using that database to track a citizen's every move, requiring more and more points where presentation of ID was required. We already have a lesson in the Social Security Number, which is used far beyond the scope of original intent.
I can worry as much as the next person about where it is all headed, but I am not going to hyperventilate just yet.
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
Me neither...like the sandwich boards declaring the end of the world is coming...
Well the real ID card does present a problem. It puts all your data in one pot. How many computers and databases have government and contractors lost. Will that make you want to hyperventilate?
Thinking that an ID card will provide security in this day and age is laughable. How many crooked government personnel have been caught selling official IDs. The ony thing Real ID will do is lull us into a false sense of security. If Terrorists can plan and carry out 9/11 I wonder how long it will take them to turn out fake real IDs. The only thing Real ID will create is a black market in Real ID for illegal aliens.
Once again we have been sold out by the politicians in DC. Who instead of securing our borders come up with this braindead solution.
Thinking that an ID card will provide security in this day and age is laughable. How many crooked government personnel have been caught selling official IDs. The ony thing Real ID will do is lull us into a false sense of security. If Terrorists can plan and carry out 9/11 I wonder how long it will take them to turn out fake real IDs. The only thing Real ID will create is a black market in Real ID for illegal aliens.
Once again we have been sold out by the politicians in DC. Who instead of securing our borders come up with this braindead solution.
Think about Europe, you can't check in to a hotel without a passport (real id), you can't board a train or bus, flying is out, rental car,get a job, rent a house or apartment etc.etc. If you want every action you take, every where you go, every dollar you spend and etc. to be in a Govt. data base, then do nothing about real ID.:barf:
If you trust our beaurocrats(sp) to pass judgement on every aspect of your life, then do nothing.
If however, you enjoy being free, then stand up on your feet and do something. If you have the time to read this, you have the time to E-mail or phone your rep. And do it every day until this idea is dead. Now is the time for all good men to stand up for freedom. This means you, R or D. We need to KILL this idea for good and all. RIGHT NOW.
If you trust our beaurocrats(sp) to pass judgement on every aspect of your life, then do nothing.
If however, you enjoy being free, then stand up on your feet and do something. If you have the time to read this, you have the time to E-mail or phone your rep. And do it every day until this idea is dead. Now is the time for all good men to stand up for freedom. This means you, R or D. We need to KILL this idea for good and all. RIGHT NOW.
Limeyfellow
New member
The REAL ID card is pretty damn intrusive.
Thats the basic card, brought to you by everyone favourite arsehole, Sensenbrenner. At least he is out of office now, but his screwed up legislation is still around.
I really worry about any card that has things like your religion on and so on. What next? Armbands for non trustable residents?
Add to that they want a private company to hold everyones data and be responsiable for maintaining and who gets access to it. Its a telemarketer's dream.
Thats the basic card, brought to you by everyone favourite arsehole, Sensenbrenner. At least he is out of office now, but his screwed up legislation is still around.
I really worry about any card that has things like your religion on and so on. What next? Armbands for non trustable residents?
Add to that they want a private company to hold everyones data and be responsiable for maintaining and who gets access to it. Its a telemarketer's dream.
Oh yeah let's add something else to the mix...
Tracking chips! Hitler and Stalin's wet dreams come true!! "For freedum and securty, becuz if ya don't submit to Real ID... the turrists win!" Terrorism wins when we let the government that's supposed to be ruled by the people become the police state who track and controls our every move as citizens. I don't know about you guys, but I do NOT want America to be like England...
Epyon
EDIT: I'm a naturalized citizen of this country, to make matters worse I'm of South Asian descent meaning I automatically look like a "terrorist" and that means a lot of stupid rednecks giving me looks. Suppose Real ID brands me as a terrorist for no damn reason other than possessing a firearm? Or because my name looks too Muslim? Wow, looks like I'm SOL too bad I couldn't look like Tom Jones, or Jerome Jackson. Catch my drift? If I wanted to be persecuted for being myself I would've moved to the Middle East.
Tracking chips! Hitler and Stalin's wet dreams come true!! "For freedum and securty, becuz if ya don't submit to Real ID... the turrists win!" Terrorism wins when we let the government that's supposed to be ruled by the people become the police state who track and controls our every move as citizens. I don't know about you guys, but I do NOT want America to be like England...
Epyon
EDIT: I'm a naturalized citizen of this country, to make matters worse I'm of South Asian descent meaning I automatically look like a "terrorist" and that means a lot of stupid rednecks giving me looks. Suppose Real ID brands me as a terrorist for no damn reason other than possessing a firearm? Or because my name looks too Muslim? Wow, looks like I'm SOL too bad I couldn't look like Tom Jones, or Jerome Jackson. Catch my drift? If I wanted to be persecuted for being myself I would've moved to the Middle East.
REAL ID is an essential part of dealing with illegal immigration. Let's hear the proposals for a better idea. If incensed about the need for a REAL ID, it is just an indirect reaction to why we got to this point. Guest worker program, same thing. Once in the situation, what do you do, hang those supposedly responsible or deal with the problem?
I wrote to my Senators and gave them one essential element, one that if not dealt with, will mean the illegal immigration problem has not been genuinely addressed. That would be anchor babies, and so far the bill specifies that workers cannot bring families, any members. If that falls by the wayside, the whole thing becomes a bad joke. I would change the 14th Amendment instead, but will settle for the current proposed workaround. It's so unrealistic that workers might not come at all or in as large numbers.
I wrote to my Senators and gave them one essential element, one that if not dealt with, will mean the illegal immigration problem has not been genuinely addressed. That would be anchor babies, and so far the bill specifies that workers cannot bring families, any members. If that falls by the wayside, the whole thing becomes a bad joke. I would change the 14th Amendment instead, but will settle for the current proposed workaround. It's so unrealistic that workers might not come at all or in as large numbers.
REAL ID is an essential part of getting tighter control of American citizens.
There. I corrected it for you.
Do you really believe they want to or are going to deal with illegal immigration?
We are well on the way of establishing a North American Union where borders are going to be irrelevant.:barf:
Yes, of course. Conspiracy theories abound, but a better form of ID makes complete sense. Still waiting for that better idea.
Borders will be irrelevant if there is no allowance to identify people who are here legitimately, identifying those who are not by default. A more conclusive form of ID, aside from the issue of employment, also addresses the question of entitlement to public services, voting, etc. It would be no surprise if the attendant bureaucracy incorrectly hassled legitimate people on occasion, whether citizen or legal immigrant or temporary visa holder, but the chance of that should not rule out the whole concept. Concern is not misplaced, so perhaps one could express concern instead of assuming a plan could never work, just shoot me now.
Citizens expect something to be done about the illegal immigration problem, and good ways of identifying people would have to be a cornerstone of any plan. Having some effect on everyone is an unavoidable consequence.
Absolute freedom and blind advocacy of it is a suicide pact in any case. We elect people at local, state, and national levels to make the necessary judgments. If we aren't voting in the right people, that's another issue. But before being up in arms about some decision, one might want to have a better idea to propose.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Real Gun,
I will be more than glad to share my opinion on your question. However, the subject may go OT. Unless the OP grants a topic change, I'm withholding it. But, Antipitas stated what I believe is correct. And that trumps the idea of having a "Real I.D." card...
I will be more than glad to share my opinion on your question. However, the subject may go OT. Unless the OP grants a topic change, I'm withholding it. But, Antipitas stated what I believe is correct. And that trumps the idea of having a "Real I.D." card...