BreacherUp!
New member
BigBore, no worries.
Real ID Cards, a threat to our a way of life!
- Thread starter jonathon
- Start date
jburtonpdx
New member
I dont know but this brings up the entire forms thing, and for cryin out loud the lines at the DMV are bad enough, now we are going to through in a bunch of federal crap in there also... Criminy the length of time spent in line alone is going to make me go underground....
BigBoreKindaGuy
New member
Trip20 said: "...I just can't make the "natural progression" from National ID card for purposes of keeping illegals and others who may want to do hardm out fo the country.............. to not being allowed to purchase food and clothes. It's waaaaaaay off in my mind. A little paranoid as well.
To deduce the latter from the former is skipping a thousand lifetimes in between in my opinion."
To those who think change can only occur over the course of a 1000 lifetimes it would seem paranoid. But as history has also pointed out it there are moments in time when an event can occur that can change the course of history forever in just a very short days or months.
Given that this world is in one of its greatest moments of political flux ever experienced in the course of history then the likelyhood of some national or global event causing the EVOLUTION of an National ID to something greater than its original intent is very possible and probably just as probable.
Given that free-will is at stake I'd rather error on the side of "parnoia" and be watchful than to go along assuming "a 1000 lifetimes" as the rule and waking up one morning and discovering it is too late.
To deduce the latter from the former is skipping a thousand lifetimes in between in my opinion."
To those who think change can only occur over the course of a 1000 lifetimes it would seem paranoid. But as history has also pointed out it there are moments in time when an event can occur that can change the course of history forever in just a very short days or months.
Given that this world is in one of its greatest moments of political flux ever experienced in the course of history then the likelyhood of some national or global event causing the EVOLUTION of an National ID to something greater than its original intent is very possible and probably just as probable.
Given that free-will is at stake I'd rather error on the side of "parnoia" and be watchful than to go along assuming "a 1000 lifetimes" as the rule and waking up one morning and discovering it is too late.
BigBoreKindaGuy - first of all "1000 lifetimes" is obviously an expression...
Secondly,
What then, would you propose, as a substitute to the suggestion of a National ID card, which will still fullfill it's original intent?
PS/edit: Can I call you BBKG (it's shorter than typing it all out
)
Secondly,
BigBoreKindaGuy said:
What then, would you propose, as a substitute to the suggestion of a National ID card, which will still fullfill it's original intent?
PS/edit: Can I call you BBKG (it's shorter than typing it all out
)BigBoreKindaGuy
New member
My suggestion is to leave things the way they are and start enforcing the laws that are already on the books. These laws have always been on the books but the CLU has caused the courts to redefine the laws to a point that the laws and/or the enforcement mechanisms have been completely neutralized.
BTW - I understood that "a 1000 lifetimes" is an expression but the essence of what you were saying is that alot of time would need to pass to logically jump a National ID to something beyond as it is being discussed here. You used a metaphor and I got it and responded by saying spontaneous events can change our way of life overnight. Chow!
BTW - I understood that "a 1000 lifetimes" is an expression but the essence of what you were saying is that alot of time would need to pass to logically jump a National ID to something beyond as it is being discussed here. You used a metaphor and I got it and responded by saying spontaneous events can change our way of life overnight. Chow!
BigBoreKindaGuy
New member
BBKG is fine with me.
Actually, this has been "in the works" for awhile now. There was a test project in the Air Force that people would be issued Federal ID cards. These cards would have all your information on it (rank, ssn, thumb print, security clearance and anything else they could think of).
These cards, not only a means of ID (visual) but also as a "smart card" which would be used to access buildings, flight line, and, your computer or any other computer that you had clearance for.
It was a means to get rid of any other ID's (like badges, etc..) and having to remember codes, passwords, etc..
They wanted to tie this card into either a print scanner or retia scanner for a backup to the card (since cards could be stolen). The machine that they had built to create the cards would encrypt the cards and if any other machine was used that wasn't military (using a crypto system like the KG's or the phones (dang, forgot the name of the phones) then it would destroy the card.
Now, in the military I expected my Rights to privacy and search/seizure, speech, etc.. to be watered down. It was part of the contract that I signed (that I obey all lawful orders, that Article 134 of the UCMJ covered everything that wasn't covered in the first 133, etc..).
Now, as a civie, with all my Rights 100% (or the percent that we think we have), it's something that gives me pause.
I'm not stupid, I know that I'm in "databases". How couldn't I be when I was military (they keep everything until the world ends), I've had background checks for clearances so I know I'm in OSI, FBI and NSA databases. I buy guns, have in many states, so I know that I'm at least in some states databases. I'm in the IRS database, I'm in the ATFE database (FFL03), I'm in the Secret Service database (I got to hear Bush I speak so everyone that was invited was checked) and not only that, most to all of the same have my fingerprints on file as well as the military having my DNA (I couldn't commit a crime even if I wanted to, I'd be busted in less then 24hours I bet).
Not only that, but the census people even know how many toilets you have, if that's not "knowing you" then what is? (if you had to fill out that long form, I never had to but a friend I was living with did).
The only problem with this picture is that they already HAVE allot of information on the law-abiding but little on the criminals that go underground and the illegals that work in the shadows. Hell, they can't even keep track of child molesters (been proven way too many times).
As long as we allow an underground to exist (illegals, criminals, black markets) then we will never be able to do anything to help solve or cut down on what is happening.
As long as American employers continue to employ illegals (who don't have a card now) this will always be here, if we continue to ban things because we don't like them (guns/drugs as examples) then there will always be black markets, if we force this "real ID" then people who have their own planes (many C-130's out there in private hands) will create an underground transit system.
As for people saying that this will prevent terrorist from driving (or illegals), BS. They will just drive without one, just like they do now and if they have a drivers license they drive without insurance so it won't matter one wit to them.
As long as people are willing to make a buck, because a buck can be made, with underground goods and services, a new piece of plastic isn't going to work.
You know what would work, maybe start with enforcement of deportation laws and if caught coming back then it's a federal crime punishable up to 15 years club fed. Maybe guarding our borders would be a start... ya think?
As for the home grown criminals, maybe take away these stupid "retreat" laws when it comes to violent crime. Let us police our selves and our own community. I know it sounds harsh but it worked before in the "wild west" and they had lower murder rates compared to now even taking in population at the time and now.
When the anti's scream about the wild west, I would love to see that again, crime was low, criminals were few and when the criminals were caught, if it was a hanging crime, they got a trail and then led start to the gallows if found quilty, I can deal with that.
I firmly believe that to get ahead in the future and get our crime and such under control, maybe we should go back to the past.
Wayne
These cards, not only a means of ID (visual) but also as a "smart card" which would be used to access buildings, flight line, and, your computer or any other computer that you had clearance for.
It was a means to get rid of any other ID's (like badges, etc..) and having to remember codes, passwords, etc..
They wanted to tie this card into either a print scanner or retia scanner for a backup to the card (since cards could be stolen). The machine that they had built to create the cards would encrypt the cards and if any other machine was used that wasn't military (using a crypto system like the KG's or the phones (dang, forgot the name of the phones) then it would destroy the card.
Now, in the military I expected my Rights to privacy and search/seizure, speech, etc.. to be watered down. It was part of the contract that I signed (that I obey all lawful orders, that Article 134 of the UCMJ covered everything that wasn't covered in the first 133, etc..).
Now, as a civie, with all my Rights 100% (or the percent that we think we have), it's something that gives me pause.
I'm not stupid, I know that I'm in "databases". How couldn't I be when I was military (they keep everything until the world ends), I've had background checks for clearances so I know I'm in OSI, FBI and NSA databases. I buy guns, have in many states, so I know that I'm at least in some states databases. I'm in the IRS database, I'm in the ATFE database (FFL03), I'm in the Secret Service database (I got to hear Bush I speak so everyone that was invited was checked) and not only that, most to all of the same have my fingerprints on file as well as the military having my DNA (I couldn't commit a crime even if I wanted to, I'd be busted in less then 24hours I bet).
Not only that, but the census people even know how many toilets you have, if that's not "knowing you" then what is? (if you had to fill out that long form, I never had to but a friend I was living with did).
The only problem with this picture is that they already HAVE allot of information on the law-abiding but little on the criminals that go underground and the illegals that work in the shadows. Hell, they can't even keep track of child molesters (been proven way too many times).
As long as we allow an underground to exist (illegals, criminals, black markets) then we will never be able to do anything to help solve or cut down on what is happening.
As long as American employers continue to employ illegals (who don't have a card now) this will always be here, if we continue to ban things because we don't like them (guns/drugs as examples) then there will always be black markets, if we force this "real ID" then people who have their own planes (many C-130's out there in private hands) will create an underground transit system.
As for people saying that this will prevent terrorist from driving (or illegals), BS. They will just drive without one, just like they do now and if they have a drivers license they drive without insurance so it won't matter one wit to them.
As long as people are willing to make a buck, because a buck can be made, with underground goods and services, a new piece of plastic isn't going to work.
You know what would work, maybe start with enforcement of deportation laws and if caught coming back then it's a federal crime punishable up to 15 years club fed. Maybe guarding our borders would be a start... ya think?
As for the home grown criminals, maybe take away these stupid "retreat" laws when it comes to violent crime. Let us police our selves and our own community. I know it sounds harsh but it worked before in the "wild west" and they had lower murder rates compared to now even taking in population at the time and now.
When the anti's scream about the wild west, I would love to see that again, crime was low, criminals were few and when the criminals were caught, if it was a hanging crime, they got a trail and then led start to the gallows if found quilty, I can deal with that.
I firmly believe that to get ahead in the future and get our crime and such under control, maybe we should go back to the past.
Wayne
BreacherUp!
New member
This has got to be one of funniest threads I've read. If anything, everyone's sense of humor is at an all time high (for once in a blue moon)
Enforcing current laws = great idea
But they weren't working even when they were enforced. The borders need to be tightened up BIG TIME.
I don't give a rats rear end about the National ID card as stated earlier. Nothing to hide here. A "new piece of plastic" will at least give our LEO's something to run to find out if the people are here legally... think about it.. the plastic can be fake, but it's gotta hit something in the database. Hell yes they'll work in this regard.
But they weren't working even when they were enforced. The borders need to be tightened up BIG TIME.
I don't give a rats rear end about the National ID card as stated earlier. Nothing to hide here. A "new piece of plastic" will at least give our LEO's something to run to find out if the people are here legally... think about it.. the plastic can be fake, but it's gotta hit something in the database. Hell yes they'll work in this regard.
F350Lawman
New member
I don't think this is likely to lead to globalization in anyway.
However, for all the guys who worry about a global ID, don't we sort of have one anyway? For 99% of the countries you might visit, you need a passport. Likewise people from those 99% of nations, need their "global ID" or passport to visit us.
There is no need for any U.S. national ID to have global implications or be shared with others. If you want to travel, a passport would still be the means.
P.S. I am glad to see that I am not the only guy who's so boring that I am not worried about big brother tailing me.
However, for all the guys who worry about a global ID, don't we sort of have one anyway? For 99% of the countries you might visit, you need a passport. Likewise people from those 99% of nations, need their "global ID" or passport to visit us.
There is no need for any U.S. national ID to have global implications or be shared with others. If you want to travel, a passport would still be the means.
P.S. I am glad to see that I am not the only guy who's so boring that I am not worried about big brother tailing me.
Terry Twit
Moderator
Some of you guys really miss the point. On purpose, I suspect. Is this just another way of expressing the old cop saw "If you didn't do anything wrong, why am I talkin to you?"
Hell, why not just let the police in your house and look around..it's for the chilldreeennnn..
Hell, why not just let the police in your house and look around..it's for the chilldreeennnn..
Exactly.
Instead of the "Real I.D." we should close our borders completely, except for LEGAL immigrants, and then deport all of the illegals we can round up that are currently here. I have respect for people that want to come here legally and are productive members of society.
If a terrorist really needs an I.D. they will find some way to counterfeit one or steal one and alter it.
A couple of people have said something along the lines of, "I don't have anything to hide, so why should I worry?". Well I'm sure that this has been said a million times before but if you have nothing to hide, they have nothing to look for.
BigBoreKindaGuy
New member
To F350Lawman:
Its not that a National ID will explicitly lead the way to globalization...it is as I stated previously just a another small step of many toward a larger modification of behavior that will plug into a host of others things that will happen as globalization continues to evolve.
Who knows how long from a requiring of a National ID will it be before someone then takes the ID to the next step of associating credits and debits to the ID card which paves the way for a cashless society under a global economy. And if anyone here doesn't think a global economy is possible in the next decade or two then think again given the continued momentum that globalization under a one-world order is being pushed.
Little by little all the "assumed" unrelated pieces that by themselves seem meaningless or superfluous are going to collectively work toward define an infrastructure for a single global order. The political leaders and financial heavies certainly know and understand that as a whole the masses resist change especially when it has to do with a one-world order.
However if anything has been proven by history it is that you can impose change upon the masses through slow imperceivable modifications of those things that seem so innocent when each is considered alone. When woven together over time you are suddenly caught up in the very thing you were opposed to or resisted.
By that time your daily subsistence has been implicitly coerced into being so closely associated to that behavioral change that you cannot completely detach yourself from that modification without sustaining a fairly heavy financial loss, job loss or even loss of life.
For Christian beleiving folks there-in lies the trojan horse that paves the way for the final choice each will face.....either follow the laws and regulations of "wise" (ha-ha) men or choose to retain the God-given right to live a life by and under the laws of God.
Its not that a National ID will explicitly lead the way to globalization...it is as I stated previously just a another small step of many toward a larger modification of behavior that will plug into a host of others things that will happen as globalization continues to evolve.
Who knows how long from a requiring of a National ID will it be before someone then takes the ID to the next step of associating credits and debits to the ID card which paves the way for a cashless society under a global economy. And if anyone here doesn't think a global economy is possible in the next decade or two then think again given the continued momentum that globalization under a one-world order is being pushed.
Little by little all the "assumed" unrelated pieces that by themselves seem meaningless or superfluous are going to collectively work toward define an infrastructure for a single global order. The political leaders and financial heavies certainly know and understand that as a whole the masses resist change especially when it has to do with a one-world order.
However if anything has been proven by history it is that you can impose change upon the masses through slow imperceivable modifications of those things that seem so innocent when each is considered alone. When woven together over time you are suddenly caught up in the very thing you were opposed to or resisted.
By that time your daily subsistence has been implicitly coerced into being so closely associated to that behavioral change that you cannot completely detach yourself from that modification without sustaining a fairly heavy financial loss, job loss or even loss of life.
For Christian beleiving folks there-in lies the trojan horse that paves the way for the final choice each will face.....either follow the laws and regulations of "wise" (ha-ha) men or choose to retain the God-given right to live a life by and under the laws of God.
I'm not missing the point, let alone on purpose. Don't assert something so, well, stupid. The point, if you can call it that, is utterly ridiculous.
We've gone from globalization, to 666 and the end of the world, to all sort of other BS conspiracy theories.
You can't back up an arguement with off the wall "what if's".
Ok fine, you don't like National ID cards.. great... now explain to me why with out the freaking scare tactic, BS, and cartoon network crap. Maybe you'll change my mind - who knows. I'll listen to realistic arguments.
But convincing me I'm going to have a barcode tattood on my ass, and I won't be able to purchase food with out rubbing my rear end against the register ------- all because of a form of ID ain't gonna cut it.
We've gone from globalization, to 666 and the end of the world, to all sort of other BS conspiracy theories.
You can't back up an arguement with off the wall "what if's".
Ok fine, you don't like National ID cards.. great... now explain to me why with out the freaking scare tactic, BS, and cartoon network crap. Maybe you'll change my mind - who knows. I'll listen to realistic arguments.
But convincing me I'm going to have a barcode tattood on my ass, and I won't be able to purchase food with out rubbing my rear end against the register ------- all because of a form of ID ain't gonna cut it.
"Those" who are out to "get us"..... were us..... are us. Has everyone forgotten this?
Those being the crew that is secretly organizing the new world order... assuming we're talking about all the nations governments who secretly meet and drum up new ideas on how to brain wash us all into shaving our heads and becoming one global nation, under the same laws, economy, and rule.
Those being the crew that is secretly organizing the new world order... assuming we're talking about all the nations governments who secretly meet and drum up new ideas on how to brain wash us all into shaving our heads and becoming one global nation, under the same laws, economy, and rule.
BigBoreKindaGuy
New member
Trip20...sorry to say but I think you do miss the point. The National ID's are what they are...instruments that bottom line end up changing the normal course of societal behavior and again chip away at your right to choose for yourself.
Its no different than gun-control and I bet you are staunch against that. You don't want to be told to give up your firearms anymore than I wish to be forced to carry a National ID. Do you honestly think you are going to be allowed to choose to NOT get a National ID? The fact is that a National ID will not prevent illegals from gaining entry anymore than removing guns from the general population will keep them out of the hands of perps. Wrong doers always find a way to get around such BS.
Finally the fact that we can discuss National ID's, globalization, 666 and whatever all in one breadth is based on the fact that the sum of the parts can equal to an entirely different whole that is bad...and to not be always vigilent about ALL things and assume that life just will go on unimpacted by the sum of the individual parts is quite foolish and quite careless. That's exactly what the world did when a certain individual authored the book Mein Kamph. All because people were not vigilant as to what was really happening as this solitary man wrote Mein Kamph from his prison cell. Who would have ever thought that writing a single book such as this was the seed of impetus behind the solitary individual Adolf Hitler who was responsible for bringing about WWII and the loss to 10's of millions of lives ?
Its no different than gun-control and I bet you are staunch against that. You don't want to be told to give up your firearms anymore than I wish to be forced to carry a National ID. Do you honestly think you are going to be allowed to choose to NOT get a National ID? The fact is that a National ID will not prevent illegals from gaining entry anymore than removing guns from the general population will keep them out of the hands of perps. Wrong doers always find a way to get around such BS.
Finally the fact that we can discuss National ID's, globalization, 666 and whatever all in one breadth is based on the fact that the sum of the parts can equal to an entirely different whole that is bad...and to not be always vigilent about ALL things and assume that life just will go on unimpacted by the sum of the individual parts is quite foolish and quite careless. That's exactly what the world did when a certain individual authored the book Mein Kamph. All because people were not vigilant as to what was really happening as this solitary man wrote Mein Kamph from his prison cell. Who would have ever thought that writing a single book such as this was the seed of impetus behind the solitary individual Adolf Hitler who was responsible for bringing about WWII and the loss to 10's of millions of lives ?
shootinstudent
New member
Bigbore,
Let's try this: What information will be available about you after the new ID, that wasn't available before the ID rolled around?
And um....where does 666 enter this equation???
Let's try this: What information will be available about you after the new ID, that wasn't available before the ID rolled around?
And um....where does 666 enter this equation???
BigBoreKindaGuy
New member
shootin-student - its not a matter of what information would be available that already isn't already available elsewhere....its the possible next kinds of information that the card can be used to track.
I don't know about you but I never authorized nor voted in any national referendum that I am aware of to allow any information to be collected about me. This whole ID mess is an invasion of my right to privacy.
If anyone wishes to give that up and become a number or a cog then be my guest. That to me is not freedom..it is a thinly disguised form of slavery. And if anyone here doesn't already feel the daily contnuous pressure of the "chokers" being placed on us then you have already lost your will to live free and don't even know it.
As for 666 it is the mark of the beast as told in the New Testament. It is a mark that will be associated to the head or hand in some manner that must be taken in order to buy or sell ANYTHING. If you accept the mark then you have chosen to follow Satan (free-will remover). If you choose to not accept the mark you have aligned yourself with God (free-will preserver). Those who refuse to take the mark will be hunted down, put into prison and eventually killed by those who chose the mark. A National ID is a blantant step toward fulfilling that scripture because as I said what will come to be addiotnally associated to the National ID once it is firmly rooted into the fabric of our society? The line is never drawn as to where the limit is for these types of things (ID's) and always evolve into having a life of their own that builds up too much momentum to stop even when all early indications are the ID as instruments for holding private information are being abused.
I don't know about you but I never authorized nor voted in any national referendum that I am aware of to allow any information to be collected about me. This whole ID mess is an invasion of my right to privacy.
If anyone wishes to give that up and become a number or a cog then be my guest. That to me is not freedom..it is a thinly disguised form of slavery. And if anyone here doesn't already feel the daily contnuous pressure of the "chokers" being placed on us then you have already lost your will to live free and don't even know it.
As for 666 it is the mark of the beast as told in the New Testament. It is a mark that will be associated to the head or hand in some manner that must be taken in order to buy or sell ANYTHING. If you accept the mark then you have chosen to follow Satan (free-will remover). If you choose to not accept the mark you have aligned yourself with God (free-will preserver). Those who refuse to take the mark will be hunted down, put into prison and eventually killed by those who chose the mark. A National ID is a blantant step toward fulfilling that scripture because as I said what will come to be addiotnally associated to the National ID once it is firmly rooted into the fabric of our society? The line is never drawn as to where the limit is for these types of things (ID's) and always evolve into having a life of their own that builds up too much momentum to stop even when all early indications are the ID as instruments for holding private information are being abused.