READ BEFORE POSTING! World Trade Center Terror Attack?
- Thread starter Bartholomew Roberts
- Start date
one thing is for certain:
the events of 9-11, regardless who perpetrated them, have not made the government any less intrusive in our lives.
in fact, the events of 9-11 have given the government inroad into our lives that we never would have allowed without this destructive catastrophe: Patriot Act, Department of Homeland Security, Transportation Security Administration.
If its broke, throw more government at it, right? please government, harass old ladies at the airport to protect me from terrorism. please government, disarm airline pilots and civilian passengers to protect me from terrorism. please government, wiretap my phone and track my library usage to protect me from terrorism. please government, i'll take your national id card and microchip implant, JUST PROTECT ME FROM THE TERRORISTS, I BEG OF YOU, ALL POWERFUL GOVERNMENT! :barf:
the events of 9-11, regardless who perpetrated them, have not made the government any less intrusive in our lives.
in fact, the events of 9-11 have given the government inroad into our lives that we never would have allowed without this destructive catastrophe: Patriot Act, Department of Homeland Security, Transportation Security Administration.
If its broke, throw more government at it, right? please government, harass old ladies at the airport to protect me from terrorism. please government, disarm airline pilots and civilian passengers to protect me from terrorism. please government, wiretap my phone and track my library usage to protect me from terrorism. please government, i'll take your national id card and microchip implant, JUST PROTECT ME FROM THE TERRORISTS, I BEG OF YOU, ALL POWERFUL GOVERNMENT! :barf:
Please, spare us the melodrama...have you had your phone tapped, your library usage tracked; are you carrying a National ID card; have you had a micro chip installed ?
Yeah, the TSA is a cluster huddle and airport security is a pain in the ass, needlessly delaying travelers and abusing some with the overlording of their 'authority'.
The Patriot Act is in many ways overkill legislation passed in a kneejerk, paranoid atmosphere. I don't support much of it but it will pass into history. It is not the end of the world as we know it.
Instead of whning and wringing your hands, how about some of that good old 20-20 hindsight on what shoulda been done.
Yeah, the TSA is a cluster huddle and airport security is a pain in the ass, needlessly delaying travelers and abusing some with the overlording of their 'authority'.
The Patriot Act is in many ways overkill legislation passed in a kneejerk, paranoid atmosphere. I don't support much of it but it will pass into history. It is not the end of the world as we know it.
Instead of whning and wringing your hands, how about some of that good old 20-20 hindsight on what shoulda been done.
how would i know? it's not like they would or even have to tell me.
it's all about incrementalism. did your great-grandparents have a social security number?
i hardly consider recognizing government tyranny as melodrama.
frankly, there ain't a darn thing that can be or will be done about any of this. history is a relentless cycle of tyranny and revolution.
i absolutely abhor woulda shoulda and coulda. just living in the past, IMHO. but to humor you, maybe disarming all airline pilots wasn't such a good idea. http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=573
What are we going to do to prevent future attacks? secure the border maybe? kinda hypocritical don't ya think, that it is easier to come across the border with mexico than it is for an american citizen to get on a plane in america?
Don't know, after all they don't have to tell me...
Coming soon to a driver's lisence near you!
No, but I'll be carrying one in my shiny new passport for radio tracking.
Jackbooted thugs secure in their power and absolute authority due to the "war on terrorism."
Liberty lost is not so easily found again, regardless of what poitical party any of us chooses to follow. We're being divided and conquered by the elite, and don't ever forget that.
We need to stop blaming any one person in charge, and blame ALL of them.
That said, I wasn't a TFL member when this happened, but reading this thread reminded me of that morning, where we had a very similar unfolding of events on a private mail list I share with friends, many of whom lived in NYC. As a sysadmin at an ISP we had no TV or no radio, only the internet for our news. It was a scary, frightening time. Its a shame to see someone come along and kick the dust off this thread to do their grandstanding, and its as much of a shame to see how all of us (myself included) come in to do the same.
Close the thread, its not about firearms, and its doomed to continue its downhill slide into arguments and flamewars.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Close the thread, its not about firearms, and its doomed to continue its downhill slide into arguments and flamewars."
I think that's the most prescient statemement made in this thread in...
3 years?
I think that's the most prescient statemement made in this thread in...
3 years?
So, you just wanna gripe about whats been done and refuse to offer anything of substance about where we should have gone or where we should go from here. How useful.
This country has seen a war for independence, an invasion by the British, a war with the Indians, with Mexico, a Civil War, a war with Spain, two World Wars, a cold war, two Asian Wars and two wars in the middle east, along with almost constant fighting in one form or another in one place or another along the way. We, as a nation, have seen phenomenal growth over the past 200+ years, both in our individual living standard and in the power of our country. Do you really think that the current situation that we find ourselves in is going to have that great an overall negative impact on us or our liberties? I think not. We will see our way clear of this time and realize a greater amount of liberty than we have seen in the past several generations. Freedom from fear is highly under-rated. Whining and crying won't make it happen.
This country has seen a war for independence, an invasion by the British, a war with the Indians, with Mexico, a Civil War, a war with Spain, two World Wars, a cold war, two Asian Wars and two wars in the middle east, along with almost constant fighting in one form or another in one place or another along the way. We, as a nation, have seen phenomenal growth over the past 200+ years, both in our individual living standard and in the power of our country. Do you really think that the current situation that we find ourselves in is going to have that great an overall negative impact on us or our liberties? I think not. We will see our way clear of this time and realize a greater amount of liberty than we have seen in the past several generations. Freedom from fear is highly under-rated. Whining and crying won't make it happen.
By all means close it; but if you are going to start passing out hats - make sure everyone qualified for one get's theirs too. There are alot of very credible and professional people that I am sure will be disappointed if they are left out. 
Rich,
Reading Silverstein's transcript verbatem it is very hard work to take it any other way:
So the decision was made, and they "pulled everyone out of the building" and they "watched it collapse"? It of course collapsed right on que, after everyone was out - even though it was not in any danger of collpapse to begin with. That is conspeewassy theewy of the year; including the cooperation of an inanimate steel structure.
Right
The editorial staff of Fire Engineering Magazine didn't buy it either.
Lot's more fairytales.
Rich,
Reading Silverstein's transcript verbatem it is very hard work to take it any other way:
You mean those little fires on the 7th and 12th floor of a 47 story steel building Larry?
"Pull" what Larry? He doesn't sound like he is talking about people. And Larry's tone on film at this point doesn't imply anything other than an air of casual decision - not that the building was in a state of imminent collapse - and it could not have been from the two fires in any case.
What does "made that decision to pull ... uh" followed immediately by "and we watched the building collapse." mean Larry?
So the decision was made, and they "pulled everyone out of the building" and they "watched it collapse"? It of course collapsed right on que, after everyone was out - even though it was not in any danger of collpapse to begin with. That is conspeewassy theewy of the year; including the cooperation of an inanimate steel structure.
Right
The editorial staff of Fire Engineering Magazine didn't buy it either. Lot's more fairytales.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Source Please?
As to the rest of your dot connecting, keep digging, LAK. You should be hearing Chinese Choir singing soon.
Rich
shootinstudent
New member
The only reason that people aren't claiming a government missile hit the WTC is that there's a video. People continue, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary, to claim that about the Pentagon. It's clear as day that two planes hit the WTC, and instead of taking the obvious explanation that they fell because of the two passenger jets (and that building 7 was hurt by the collapse of two enormous buildings on the same block), the tinfoil hat crowd were writing on the web within days to blame jews, george bush, and whoever else they've always blamed for all of their personal inadequacies.
I agree with Marko Kloos and Mike Irwin. These theories are completely irrational, and no amount of evidence will ever contradict the "inside info" that these people think they have.
I agree with Marko Kloos and Mike Irwin. These theories are completely irrational, and no amount of evidence will ever contradict the "inside info" that these people think they have.
"Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car."
"Such destruction of evidence shows the astounding ignorance of government officials to the value of a thorough, scientific investigation of the largest fire-induced collapse in world history. I have combed through our national standard for fire investigation, NFPA 921, but nowhere in it does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence for buildings over 10 stories tall."
- Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in chief
http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...n=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225
shootinstudent
New member
Redhawk41,
That article sure doesn't say anything about demolition. All he seems to be saying is that he wants to learn more about the effects of fire on similar buildings. There isn't even the slightest hint that something other than a plane crash destroyed the buildings.
That article sure doesn't say anything about demolition. All he seems to be saying is that he wants to learn more about the effects of fire on similar buildings. There isn't even the slightest hint that something other than a plane crash destroyed the buildings.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Redhawk-
You seem to be saying something quite different from LAK.
His claim is that the Staff of FE don't buy the story that fire brought Building 7 down.
Perhaps the real story is that .gov intentionally had these buildings constructed below grade so that they could, 20 years later, stage a terrorist attack and then bring them down with a satellite based energy beam in order to pass legislation enslaving us all as servants to the Global Plantation.
Who'da thunk it?
Rich
You seem to be saying something quite different from LAK.
His claim is that the Staff of FE don't buy the story that fire brought Building 7 down.
Perhaps the real story is that .gov intentionally had these buildings constructed below grade so that they could, 20 years later, stage a terrorist attack and then bring them down with a satellite based energy beam in order to pass legislation enslaving us all as servants to the Global Plantation.
Who'da thunk it?
Rich
"Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the "official investigation" blessed by FEMA and run by the American Society of Civil Engineers is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure."
"As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals."
"However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers."
- Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in chief
http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...TICLE_ID=131225
"As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals."
"However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers."
- Bill Manning, Fire Engineering's editor in chief
http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...TICLE_ID=131225
"Indeed, critical evidence of how the trade center collapsed may be lost already. In the immediate aftermath of the disaster, haulers began to cut up and truck pieces of the towers' 300,000 tons (272,000 tonnes) of structural steel to recycling centers because the pieces purportedly did not hold any evidence important to criminal investigators."
"Prior to this disaster, it had been claimed that fire had never caused collapse in a properly sprinklered building. Were the World Trade Center Towers properly sprinklered? More needs to be discovered and reported about the actual types and conditions of steel fireproofing in the buildings. Similarly, more needs to be discovered and about the types and status of fire suppression systems."
http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1024/news_2-2.html
"Prior to this disaster, it had been claimed that fire had never caused collapse in a properly sprinklered building. Were the World Trade Center Towers properly sprinklered? More needs to be discovered and reported about the actual types and conditions of steel fireproofing in the buildings. Similarly, more needs to be discovered and about the types and status of fire suppression systems."
http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1024/news_2-2.html
"Mowrer's calculations indicate the planes' fuel, initially assumed to have made the World Trade Center fires much more intense than a conventional building fire, may not have played such a significant role. His calculations show that much of the fuel was burned up in the fireballs that could be seen outside the buildings just after the planes hit. What was left inside the buildings would have been consumed within about 10 minutes."
"Other high-rise buildings have survived intense multi-floor fires. In 1988 five floors of the 62-story First Interstate Bank Building in Los Angeles burned for 3 1/2 hours without causing the building to collapse. Three years later, the upper nine floors of Philadelphia's One Meridian Plaza burned until sprinklers eventually extinguished the flames."
"``We need to look at the difference between the World Trade Center and these other fires,'' Mowrer said. ``We need to do the analysis and not just assume that just because it was hit by jet planes that (collapse) was inevitable.''"
http://www.firehouse.com/news/2001/12/12_APengineers.html
"Other high-rise buildings have survived intense multi-floor fires. In 1988 five floors of the 62-story First Interstate Bank Building in Los Angeles burned for 3 1/2 hours without causing the building to collapse. Three years later, the upper nine floors of Philadelphia's One Meridian Plaza burned until sprinklers eventually extinguished the flames."
"``We need to look at the difference between the World Trade Center and these other fires,'' Mowrer said. ``We need to do the analysis and not just assume that just because it was hit by jet planes that (collapse) was inevitable.''"
http://www.firehouse.com/news/2001/12/12_APengineers.html
novus collectus
Moderator
It seems to me (from what yuou quoted) that he is being critical of the investigation but he is not saying that there was a premeditated conspiracy.
I was a construction worker for ten years and I have seen how the sprinkler system is installed in a number of differently designed builings and I believe that the trauma inflicted to the building by the impact and the explosively expanding fireball (in the spaces that contained the expansion and in the spaces that could provide a detonation with the proper fuel-air mixture) could have easily disabled the sprinkler system in that section of the building.
The Sprinkler systems in the higher built buildings usually (or always) have seperate systems for a certain number of floors and if that particular unit is disabled, then 3-15 floors will no longer have the benefit of sprinklers. Also, the hangers for the pipes are not the strongest way of securing the heavy pipes, but they are good enough when not hit by a jet liner. The trauma of the impact and flying debris could have easily knocked the pipes from their moorings and broken the line in many places, the plane also may have hit the unit controlling the supply of the sprinkler system for those floors and disabled it at the source.
I agree that there was a need for more investigation of how the buildings failed, but it was not a conspiracy that kept that from happenning. It was the many billions of dollars in cost and the extended time it would have taken to do so.
And btw, did Mowhers calculations include the concrete? It burns too when the fire is hot enough. He must have assumed that the fire never got that hot and that the fuel was completly consumed and didn't have a chance to pool in spots that would reignite minutes later when the continuing fire reached it.
Way to post select sentences out of context. Here's the sentence directly after that:
"Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time."
Again, no where does Bill Manning allude to some conspiracy that anything other than the fires were the cause of the collapses. Bill Manning is angry that bureaucrats ran a half-assed investigation and that lessons to be learned about highrise fires may not be because of it.