Re: In what condition do you carry your 1911

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As was said, I don't think JB's original design had a thumb safety but did have a grip safety?

So Browning did not originate the idea of a cocked and locked 1911. In the military they didn't carry cocked and locked as a general practice but they usually had access to a long gun. But officers and support troops, issued with a 1911, might not have a long gun handy.

Comp shooters pin or tape the grip safety because depending on your hand size/grip technique, it's easy to "miss" the GS and the pistol doesn't fire....this is the reason for beaver tail grip safeties with the bump. JB didn't design this either.

Many carry striker pistols with no "safety" as such, just "safety features"...carrying cocked and locked is just as safe
 
My choice has always been condition 1 (round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on).

Condition 2 carry requires dropping the hammer with a live round in the chamber. Since the 1911 has no decocking lever, this means one has to pull the trigger and ease down the hammer manually. I'm not a fan of pulling a trigger without a target to aim at. Also, try thumbing back the hammer on a condition 2 weapon while drawing under stress - it's a lot harder than one would imagine. Consider too that a hammer drawn back almost all the way but released accidentally can also set off a round before the weapon is on target. Too much can go wrong with condition 2 carry for my tastes.

Condition 3 is perfectly safe to carry, but makes the weapon slower to draw and shoot if needed. It generally requires two hands to bring the weapon into quick use, which may not be possible in a close conflict.
 
The grip safety was supposed to keep the pistol from discharging if it was cocked, but not locked, and dropped with the muzzle pointing up. If a 1911 landed in that manner, the trigger assembly could be carried through to hammer release by its own momentum.
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Even a heavy, all-steel trigger weighs less than an ounce; how far would the gun have to fall for the trigger to apply 5#-6# of force to the sear/disconnector?
Would the half-cock catch the hammer under those conditions?
 
This is a little off topic from the original question, but I think it does have merit as it pertains to the safety of different carry modes with the 1911. RickB caused me to ponder the wisdom of what I had heard about the grip safety's purpose. After a lot of playing with momentum figures, I have to say it doesn't appear very likely that a fall under just the force of gravity would cause the trigger to move with enough force to let the hammer fall (unless it was dropped from a really tall building). However, when I began tweaking the speed of impact and the height from which the gun was dropped it quickly became more likely. Dropping a 1911 while being thrown from horseback at 15 mph isn't likely a problem for many now, but would have been a definite possibility for Browning to consider. If the trigger moved enough to release the hammer, I don't think that the half-cock safety would catch it.
 
I only carry it in the condition it was designed to be carried. Most guys do not understand that a 1911 cocked and locked is safer than a Glock. The Glock allows the trigger to be pulled by a nervous finger or a piece of clothing. Forget your brain being your best safety because few have experienced life and death stress when you cannot get your gun drawn and finger on the trigger fast enough. Our brains are so bad at being safe as witnessed by countless car accidents each day and almost every product being made with some safety feature. We all say we are above the common man. We used to say that there are those who have had an accidental discharge and those just waiting for an AD. I knew many a man who said it happens only to the idiot other guys until it happens to them. Recent studies showed that even highly trained men sometimes put their finger on the trigger when stressed and do not even know it until they are showed the video. Google Mas Ayoob. He did an article on this study.

A 1911 has a manual safety, grip safety, notch safety should the hammer somehow fall and a firing pin safety that needs the trigger to be pulled. A Glock has safeties to protect Glock against lawsuits. It is like placing the brakes on the gas pedal when you want to be prevented from pressing the gas pedal unless you want to accelerate. I am not anti Glock. I bought 8 of them in the last 6 years. However, I feel a lot safer with a cocked and locked 1911. Looking scary is not the same as being unsafe.
 
Vic1951
I agree , I did have to draw my gun years ago on someone . It was
late at night walking through the projects in Astoria NY when a guy came up on my left side , I didn't see him until he was right on me , I pulled a Colt Commander stuck it to his forehead, didn't have time to pull the hammer back , I do remember having my finger on the trigger though , he made a grunt sound an ran . the situation was good & bad. Bad because the gun at that second was useless, good because it ended without me being stabbed or blowing his head off if I were quicker.
I still carry in condition 2 just be aware of your surroundings at all times . Just leave me alone & we all have that space zone . What ever condition you carry in , Be Safe out there. I use to carry a S&W 2" 38Spl. Glad it was the auto that night.
 
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Mr oldfart1944 did you say singer?. Nice , a friend of mine has 2 of them and they are very nice 1911's
 
Singer received an "educational contract" for 500 pistols, to see how easily/quickly a company with no firearms-making experience could gear up in wartime.
While there are some few Singers that had "EX" serials, Singer had their own S-prefixed serial number range for the production guns, 1-500.
The existence of guns outside that serial range has allowed more faking than would otherwise be the case, as if there's one authentic "EX" gun, why couldn't there be ten, or thirty?
Colt made 1,000 M1911 pistols a day in 1918, and while they reduced their involvement in pistol production during WWII, they made M1911A1 pistols right up until the end of WWII, 120,000 of them in 1945 alone..
 
Same with me. Is the question answer now? The historical discussion is always interesting but the condition question seems settled. I did the the AIWB question is interesting. You move to a carry condition for a faster draw? Then slow it down with the carry condition?
 
Not so fast; the discussion isn't complete until someone posts that the "original" 1911 didn't have a thumb safety.
 
Re: In what condition do you carry your 1911

RickB said:
Not so fast; the discussion isn't complete until someone posts that the "original" 1911 didn't have a thumb safety.
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Which would have been half cocked with a round in the chamber... considering the other Browning designs prior to the 1911 (1887/1901, 1893/1897, 1886, 1892, 1894, 1895).
 
Eod1 said:
Mr oldfart1944 did you say singer?. Nice , a friend of mine has 2 of them and they are very nice 1911's
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Something here is impossible. Mr. Oldepharte says he has a Singer 1911, you say you know someone who has two, and I know a man who has two. Unless we know the same guy, that makes five. And a few years ago, at a large gun show in York, Pennsylvania, a friend and I listened while a vendor explained to a prospective buyer that the purported Singer has was offering was one of only four in existence. ;)
 
I have a call into my friend that collects 1911's. He will get back to me soon. Until then, 4 is all they know about. Most of them (what I've been told ) are on the bottom of the ocean. Because I was told that they were issued to the Bomber squadrons. Now i know a lot of people that don't want people to know what they own because either don't want it taken away from them or don't want people to break into their homes and try to steal them. I know 2 Merrill's Marauders that have things in their possession I can't even talk about here and won't. So 4 , I bet there are a few here and there they don't know about until the people who own them die and their kids sell them off as scrap
 
Who says four is all they know about? My previous post was facetious -- when my friend and I heard the guy at the show claiming that he had one of only four known to exist, we both nearly busted a gut trying not to laugh out loud.
 
This thread accounts for five (5) Singer 1911s. According to the vendor in Pennsylvania, there are only four in existence. And I can certainly believe what a vendor at a gun shows said ... can't I?
 
JMB did not design the 1911 to be carried in condition 1.

Singer 1911s had serial numbers. Colt did just fine through WW2 and made a lot of 1911s.

A thumb slip of an almost cocked 1911 hammer will not result in discharge.
 
As of 1934, all handguns made or sold in the US were required to have serial numbers-Singer included.
If you possess a Singer without a serial number, it has been removed. Possession of a handgun with a removed or altered serial number is a felony.
Another possibility is that someone completed an "80%" frame and installed a Singer slide-but that's unlikely. This would be legal, BTW.
 
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