Question someone's NFA item, Yes or No?

Would you inquire about a NFA Weapon

  • I would ask for a Form 4

    Votes: 2 2.1%

  • I would inform authorities

    Votes: 2 2.1%

  • Just let them be

    Votes: 91 95.8%
  • Total voters
    95
  • Poll closed .
Yes, I am one of the folks who activate the "blue light special" in your rearview mirror when you don't pay attention to your speed. Also known as tail-light chaser, road nazi, JBT, butthead, #%&!!, and other savory terms of endearment.

You would be surprised, though...

The VAST majority of LEO feel EXACTLY the same way. As in, "Why the heck should I have to interfere with someone exercising their rights?"

My first reaction when I hear the cheerful sound of automatic weapons is to drool profusely.

Unfortunately, in this State, it's something we don't hear too often. And, when we do, we have to ask (tactfully) the hard questions.

I had an experience a while back...I was on the firing line at my gun club, when someone walked up and asked me if it was OK to shoot full auto. (I was also the club president at the time.) I asked about calibers, and they said, "9mm". I told them that it was fine.

The guys started breaking out the goodies--one full sized MP5, an MP5K, and a Savage 110 with a Gemtech suppressor.

I remarked, mildly, "Getting the stamps for all that must have been expensive."

Turned out that the guy is a SOT/Class 7 manufacturer, and wanted to test out some recent work. Of course, being the club president, I was offered the chance to (ahem) sample the goods.

The guy had a C-Mag for the MP-5; I got to shoot the MP5K with a full drum. Sweet! :D

And the suppressed Savage (in .30-06) had almost no recoil and a report like a .22. It must have improved the harmonics, too--sub MOA with hunting loads at 100 yards. :D:D:D
 
Harassing someone with a loaded firearm for no good reason doesn't sound like very sound judgement to me. Unless they're behaving in such a way as to make me think they're doing something unsafe/illegal/against the rules of the range, I'd leave them alone or perhaps compliment them on their neat gun.
 
This would be as rude as asking a young driver to see their license IMO.

"Hey, you look too young to be driving, let me see your license or I am calling the police"
Hey, you look like a criminal, let me see your form 4 or I am calling the police."

None of my business.
The only way I would possibly become involved is if they were being blatantly dangerous could not control the full auto then I might think about it.
 
a. If you are a convicted felon, no guns. Period. You should have kept your hand out of the cookie jar.
b. Keep the NICS check. It is a valuable means to tell if a prohibited person is buying guns.
c. Keep the DV disqualification. If you want to beat up your spouse, children, relatives or domestic partners, why should YOU have access to firearms?
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Unfortunately, these can open up a can of worms.

I agree with them in the spirit in which they were intended, but, due to many perversions of the law, they have come to be widely abused.

(a) To wit: Parents' "A's" 18 year old son takes Parents' "B's" 17 year old daughter to the prom. They have sex after. Parents "B" find out, and are highly incensed that their innocent angel of a daughter (who, in all likelihood, has been having sex since she was 14) has been "violated" and press charges against Parents "A's " 18 year old son. (Don't scoff; It's happened.) Boy "A" is found guilty and is convicted of statutory rape, a FELONY.

Now, should HE be denied the ownership of a gun because of some slutty little tramp and naive, overzealous parents?

(By the way, that's just one example; There are many things that so many of us do each day that are felonies that we're not even aware of. And just to make it even more convoluted, if we have knowledge of someone that has committed a felony and don't report it, that's "misprision," also a felony. Get the point?)

(b) NICS checks are a good idea SO LONG AS ABSOLUTELY NO RECORDS ARE KEPT ONCE A PERSON HAS BEEN CLEARED. There have to be foolproof safeguards installed to prevent abuse of NICS checks. This one is waaaay to easy for susceptibility to governmental abuse.

(c) Once again, too many states have enacted DV laws that make an arrest mandatory of at least one person if they respond to a DV call. And too many of these have occurred when a spiteful spouse self inflicts a wound to make it look like an assault has occurred. (And I would tend to think it's usually the woman who does this, but I don't have any statistics for obvious reasons.)

Now: Let the flaming begin.

[Edit: I am not including true cases of DV in this post. There is NO excuse for a man hitting a women, EVER, or vice versa.}
 
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nfa

this old man would like for anyone that saw me with a weapon that the feds frown upon would tell me immediately so it could be corrected before any trouble with those guys started. have never owned one mainly because finances will not permit it.:eek:
 
And I would contest the warrant... depending on if the state of AZ has any law enforcement grounds to be looking at Federal tax documents. Not sure if there is a case history of states subpoenaing federal 1040 forms or other non-state revenue tax documents.
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I worked for a state tax commission until a few years ago. We did have access to IRS databases of filed income tax returns and information returns (1099's, w-2's, etc.). Such access was restricted ;) ;) to those working on certain projects dealing with income tax and previous federal assessments. The feds seemed pretty uptight about even the state tax agency having free reign with their info. BTW, i found their database far from infallible.

I have never been so happy to quit a job in my life. :)
 
The bottom line remains thus: You do not have to show your NFA paperwork to anyone but an agent of the ATF.

I am not citing the wisdom of refusing to cooperate with your local LEO as ther are many other trumped up charges that can be leveled against you, but the fact remains that, if you are arrested for refusing to show paperwork, you have a great lawsuit for false arrest.
 
We was out at our private range yesterday shooting the M16 and the local police SWAT team had their MP5's out playing as well (off duty off course). Next thing we see is red/blue lights coming out to the range, we stopped shooting to see what was going on, turned out to be a couple Sheriff's deputies....someone called them cause they heard full-auto fire coming from the field. Once they got there and realized it was the city police we all had a good laugh.

BTW: When I pulled the M16 out, none of the SWAT guys said anything about it other than "nice M16". :cool:
 
Surprise! In the state of Florida, NFA items are illegal unless properly registered with ATF. Therefore a LEO may request to see proof of your documentation. You can show him at the range or ATF can show him at the station, while you and your NFA items are "detained
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Sorta like my perspective on the Conversation with LEO thread.


The VAST majority of LEO feel EXACTLY the same way. As in, "Why the heck should I have to interfere with someone exercising their rights?"

My first reaction when I hear the cheerful sound of automatic weapons is to drool profusely.

Unfortunately, in this State, it's something we don't hear too often. And, when we do, we have to ask (tactfully) the hard questions.
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Exactly

The bottom line remains thus: You do not have to show your NFA paperwork to anyone but an agent of the ATF.

I am not citing the wisdom of refusing to cooperate with your local LEO as ther are many other trumped up charges that can be leveled against you, but the fact remains that, if you are arrested for refusing to show paperwork, you have a great lawsuit for false arrest.
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I would put it more in the vein of more bees with honey than vinegar. Plus, it seems that there isn't a epidemic of harrassment of NFA possessors
 
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I am not citing the wisdom of refusing to cooperate with your local LEO as ther are many other trumped up charges that can be leveled against you, but the fact remains that, if you are arrested for refusing to show paperwork, you have a great lawsuit for false arrest.
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I think you're missing the point.

You would not be arrested at this junction. You would be DETAINED, pending further investigation. The presence of a fully automatic firearm without documentation of any type would lead a reasonable person to believe that the firearm MIGHT be illegally possessed. Thus, you would be detained until the proper documentation turned up.
 
Quote:
It shall be an affirmative defense
This phrase should be illegal.

It is a presumption of guilt until proof of innocence.

But... it screams out in whatever section of law it's located in that "hey you! If you participate in this, keep your papers ready to prove you're legit!"

To my knowledge, that phrase does not exist in regards to NFA in AZ.

As such, there is no duty of officers to presume illegality of posession without other mitigating/incriminating circumstances or behavior.

"Showing up at the range with a cool gun" isn't enough.
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You keep willfully missing the point. Having something out of the ordinary is cause for INVESTIGATION not ARREST. If you have your paperwork in order then the encounter should be concluded. If you don't then expect to be inconvienced fir a length of time.

What don't you understand about Affirmative defense? An affimative defense just means you are authorized to do something that in some cases would be illegal. I.E. An ad for driving without a license is producing said license.
 
Not to be rude or anything 1911, but who cares? What difference does it make or what business is it of anyone else? Like I said, I don't mean that in a rude way towards you, just posing a question. I have owned and still own a few NFA items. The first time I ever took my first NFA gun ( a MAC-11 9mm) to a public range it drew more attention than I wanted. I mean that in the sense where, people just wouldn't leave me alone about it. Everyone wanted to ask if they could fire it, was it expensive, can own those legally, blah blah blah. I never was questioned about paperwork or anything. Since then I have owned a Ruger AC-556, several suppressors (still have 2) and an SBR (semi-auto Krinkov, still have that one also). I've just never been questioned and to be truthful, most cops don't know what to ask you anyway. Believe it or not, the only time I was ever questioned was when I got pulled for speeding and the trooper could see in the back of my Tahoe. He asked me what I had in the back and I told him.....guns. When he took a look at them he kinda freaked out and called for another officer. They just assumed I had illegal guns and even when I gave them my papers they were still skeptical. Held me up for an hour, but it went fine.
 
I was asked very discreetly about my can yesterday. I took it into my local gunshop to make sure that it would fit on the pistol I was picking up. The counter man asked how much it set me back and I responded that it was $250 for the can and $200 for the tax. That told him that I was legit. Then we had a conversation about what hoops I had to jump through, wait time, etc.

I didn't mind for several reasons. First, I love teaching people stuff. Even if it's just educating a stranger about NFA legality and how they can exercise their rights. Second, he was doing his job. The store has a right to know if people are bringing illegal items into their store so that they can avoid any accusations about illegal activity going on there.
 
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