Question someone's NFA item, Yes or No?

[gyvel]

This comes from someone that thinks it is really a stupid way to handle an encounter with a LEO while walking around with a machinegun.

I'm not making a judgment on whether this is stupid or not. I'm just relating what the law says, and also recounting the personal experiences of a retired Federal agent friend of mine who has made hundreds of court appearances.

The point is that, yes, an LEO can make demands (as many of them do thinking they are above the law), but if you get arrested you have a dandy case for false arrest and nice lawsuit.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Are you kidding? OP, are you implying that any reasonable gun owner should immediately assume that someone shooting a full auto is doing so illegally, and should call the authorities just to be sure?

I'm going to start calling INS on every Mexican I see. You know, just to be sure.

 

[GeorgeF]

By that rationale, shouldnt you ask every shooter at the range if they are a convicted felon - "just in case"?

As long as its legal at the range, and they arent behaving in an unsafe manner - let them be. If they are behaving oddly, pack up and leave.

 

[azredhawk44]

I consider it very rude to question a person with a suppressor/SBS/SBR/machine gun, if it isn't your duty to do so as an RSO or ATF agent.

Frankly, the range where I RSO has no rules about safety officers proactively seeking NFA tax stamp proof. Just the same gun handling rules as any other shooter.

I think people do it as a function of jealousy. From the angle of "hey, if I can't have that easily, I'm going to make it a PITA for you to have it too."

Kinda like how some police think they have to check for CCW permits for everyone they see carrying a firearm, despite the legality of doing so.

 

[StiveC2007]

Public club no, private club maybe. also my first question would be can i shoot it

 

[UniversalFrost]

just questioned a guy last weekend who had a taurus 1911 (clearly saw the taurus stamp on the slide) that was dumping full mags with one trigger pull. I originally went up to him to help him get the gun fixed (he was in early 20's) then he went off that he had a stamp for it and did a song and dance then i asked to see his paperwork (my buddy is a RO and was standing right next to me) then he said he just moved from georgia and didn't transfer it yet, then we advised him that was illegal and then he said he was working on it and gave some made up name ( i am on a first name basis with the BATF in Tucson and Phoenix and know about 99% of them).

at that point he packed up and left and then on his way out we made sure to get his plate number and I made a call to the BATF and the sheriff to report him.

i did all this to help our range out since we don't want folks breaking the law and getting the ranch in trouble. we have had yahoo's in the past come out with unregistered guns and cans and then an undercover BATF agent will bust them (yes the BATF goes to ranges undercover, just like at gunshows). then the range gets in trouble for not checking their paperwork.

 

[Skans]

UniversalFrost - that's an entirely different situation than what I had addressed. In your situation, obviously someone was trying to convert a pistol to shoot full-auto and was putting your range in jepordy. I would have done the same thing you did.

It's one thing to approach a guy who is shooting an AC556 and bug him about paperwork when your not the RO or a LEO. Most knowledgable folks know that there aren't any unregistered AC556's out there. But, a Taurus PT-1911??? Anything Taurus that goes full auto is automatically suspect since Taurus didn't even make any autos (to my knowledge) pre-86. FWIW, at our range those of us who are firing NFA weapons keep a copy of the Form 1 / Form 4 visible on our tables - it's not a posted rule - just sort of our custom to avoid any problems.

If it was just one mag, I would have thought the same thing you did - it's a Taurus, something broke. But doing multiple mag dumps with an illegally converted 1911? I wouldn't want someone that stupid shooting within 100 miles of me.

On a side note (and this may not be appropriate, but I've got to ask) - the fact that Taurus PT-1911 had no problem with several magazines of sustained full-auto fire is interesting to me from the standpoint of the durability and reliability of that particular gun. I've never been a big fan of Taurus, but they may have really hit a home run with their PT-1911. How many mags did the guy shoot through the 1911 before you stopped him?

 

[UniversalFrost]

yeah I brought up the post 86 issue with him as well during his song and dance routine.

I have a reising and when I take it to the range I always bring my paperwork. same thing when I bring my cans for my pistols.

anyway, any class 3's always draw attention. so i always get questions and folks asking how I got my class 3's, easier to just pull out the paperwork and shut them up.

 

[PTK]

To the absolute morons who would ask to see confidential tax paperwork, or worse, call the authorities over the stated matters;

Please hand in all your guns. I cannot trust you with them.


:barf:

 

[azredhawk44]

To the absolute morons who would ask to see confidential tax paperwork, or worse, call the authorities over the stated matters;

+1.

Confidential tax paperwork. 100% agree. IRS and ATF only.

 

[Drummer101]

I think it should be the RO's responsibility and or the range itself. If I were to own a range and anyone with NFA came in I would ask to verify paper work at the door and leave it at that. Liability would be the biggest thing.

 

[Powderman]

O-kay, here's this mindset again...

An LEO doesn't even have the authority to request a Form 4. By ATF regs, you are only required to show your paperwork to an ATF agent.

Uh huh.

I guarantee that if you are at a range in the State of Washington, and you have a SBS/SBR, AOW, full auto or a suppressor, you had better fall into one of the following classes:

1. Active law enforcement, with credentials;
2. SOT, with dealer's samples; or
3. Active duty military, with documentation showing that it is an issued weapon.

Here's why...

It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

Revised Code of Washington, 9.41.190

There are exceptions, of course:

(2) This section shall not apply to:

(a) Any peace officer in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty, or to any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington in the discharge of official duty or traveling to or from official duty; or

(b) A person, including an employee of such person if the employee has undergone fingerprinting and a background check, who or which is exempt from or licensed under federal law, and engaged in the production, manufacture, repair, or testing of machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles:

(i) To be used or purchased by the armed forces of the United States;

(ii) To be used or purchased by federal, state, county, or municipal law enforcement agencies; or

(iii) For exportation in compliance with all applicable federal laws and regulations.

And, if you were lucky enough to get IBTL , you have an out...

It shall be an affirmative defense to a prosecution brought under this section that the machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle was acquired prior to July 1, 1994, and is possessed in compliance with federal law.

And if you still think I don't have the authority to ask about your paperwork if you're in the State of Washington, here's something to chew on...

All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.

So, if you're on a range in this State with any neat stuff with the go-faster switches, PLEASE have your paperwork with you.

 

[azredhawk44]

According to that, Powderman, NFA happy-switch stuff is flat out illegal unless you are an SOT or LEO/Mil.

In free states that don't care, it's none of anyone's business what tax documents say.

And in your state, WA, my tax paperwork wouldn't do any good anyways. Even if I have an NFA stamp for my (theoretical) 1984 manufactured, automatic Uzi that I acquired in 2007... according to the law you cited I'm not allowed to own it in the state of WA.

I'm not familiar with WA state law and don't pretend to be other than the snippet you provided.

But, in AZ... it is a matter of a private contract with a range you participate at whether you submit to any request to show paperwork. RSO's and such have no legal grounds to go chasing folks for tax paperwork.

I'm not 100% familiar whether any state laws in AZ allow for NFA-based inquiry by local law enforcement here. I'd be inclined to give him my driver's license and refer the matter to the ATF if I have the weapons and appropriate paperwork, but I wouldn't hand them over without a warrant. And I would contest the warrant... depending on if the state of AZ has any law enforcement grounds to be looking at Federal tax documents. Not sure if there is a case history of states subpoenaing federal 1040 forms or other non-state revenue tax documents.

 

[azredhawk44]

It shall be an affirmative defense

This phrase should be illegal.

It is a presumption of guilt until proof of innocence.

But... it screams out in whatever section of law it's located in that "hey you! If you participate in this, keep your papers ready to prove you're legit!"

To my knowledge, that phrase does not exist in regards to NFA in AZ.

As such, there is no duty of officers to presume illegality of posession without other mitigating/incriminating circumstances or behavior.

"Showing up at the range with a cool gun" isn't enough.

 

[noyes]

So, if you're on a range in this State with any neat stuff with the go-faster switches, PLEASE have your paperwork with you.

How can anyone argue with this ?

Nice ,friendly to the point with PLEASE.

Thank you very much for the information and I most definitely will.

 

[Powderman]

@azredhawk44:

You are correct. IMHO, we (Washington State) should be working all-out to remove this law from the books. Owners of full auto have to jump through far more hoops than normal to exercise their rights.

Personally, my point of view is that if want to own a firearm of ANY type, you should be able to walk into the durned store and buy it!

Wouldn't that be just too cool:
_______________________________________________
"Hi. Can I help you?"
"Yes. I'd like to take a look at that 1928A1, please."
"Here you go. Thompson/Kahr just made a new run of these. See the quality of that bluing? And, take a look at this model--same one, with a nice high polish blue and extra-fancy walnut stock and forearm."
"I like it! How much for the extra fancy model?"
"Well, Kahr has a promotion on for the rest of the month--$1350 for the SMG, plus they throw in 2 stick mags and an L-drum. This month only--if you want, you can put it on layaway. We do 120 days net on layaways."
"Layaway? I don't think so. I'll take the extra fancy model with the special--and while you're at it, how about 500 rounds of Magtech ball ammo to go with it? I wanna heat it up today!"
"You got it!"
_____________________________________

I still do like the idea of the NICS check, though.

 

[richmondtx]

not in our lifetimes powerman...what you're talking about is nirvana!! Its a bad few apples that have historically ruined it for the rest of us law abiding citizens.

 

[flight954]

Unless your LEO, BATFE or following range rules, it's no ones business.

 

[Powderman]

not in our lifetimes powerman...what you're talking about is nirvana!! Its a bad few apples that have historically ruined it for the rest of us law abiding citizens.

Yes, I agree--but let me wax political for a second...

To us, a situation like that would be nirvana--BUT IT IS ACHIEVEABLE!!!

How? Here's how...

1. Coming up this year, we have the opportunity to fire a good deal of the Senate and the House. Let's USE that opportunity! Get out and VOTE!

2. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...pick a candidate who actually (a) comes as close as possible to our views and beliefs, and (b) WHO ACTUALLY HAS A CHANCE OF WINNING!!!

Obama barely beat McCain--getting a little over 50% of the vote. Can you imagine if everyone who voted for candidates who didn't have a snowball's change of winning, voted for McCain? Second, how about those of you who actually VOTED :barf::barf::barf: for Obama? UNIFY the vote, like the Democrats did in the last election. VOTE for a good Conservative candidate!

3. There are an estimated 85-90 million gun owners in the United States--a powerful force to be reckoned with. Can you imagine what would happen if ALL OF US drafted a letter--not a form letter, but one written in your own words--DEMANDING the repeal of the NFA, and GCA 68?

I would, however, like to see the following things kept:

a. If you are a convicted felon, no guns. Period. You should have kept your hand out of the cookie jar.
b. Keep the NICS check. It is a valuable means to tell if a prohibited person is buying guns.
c. Keep the DV disqualification. If you want to beat up your spouse, children, relatives or domestic partners, why should YOU have access to firearms?

Other than that, NO RESTRICTIONS for private ownership of ANY FIREARM.

Just my take on it...

 

[PTK]

Powderman, if you're in law enforcement (as a previous post of yours would suggest), you're the kind of police officer we need more of.