Question about annealed brass

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This is basic science/physics, I have no idea why so many have such issues grasping the idea...

Energy imparted into useable, solid metals make that metal expand.
(Heated metal expands...)

If this basic reaction to energy introduced to metal escapes you,
Then this conversation is pointless.

The REASON heated metal expands is...
The heat is THERMAL ENERGY.
Energy imparted to metal molicules EXCITES THE MOLICULES.

This can be THERMAL energy (Heat),
This can be MECHANICAL energy (Friction),
This can be ELECTRO-MAGNETIC energy (magnetic induction).

Since FRICTION would wear away the case, it's out.
That leaves THERMAL & ELECTRO-MAGNETIC.

THERMAL can be electric Resistance, electrical current run through an electrical resistor (Example: Electrical Range Top Coil or Lead Pot Smelter)

THERMAL can be from long chain hydrocarbon 'Gas' oxydizing (flame).

OR,
You CAN directly impart energy to the metal with electro-magnetic induction,
Using magnetic 'Waves' to excite the molicules of the metal directly.
Those excited molicules produce HEAT by friction, from rubbing against each other in the magnetic 'Waves'.

Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups.
I 'Assumed' people knew basic energy conversion principles, since they are taught in grade school science classes.
That 'Assumption' was incorrect...

So, starting with the most BASIC rule of energy...
ENERGY can be diverted, despised, exchanged,
But NEVER 'Created', and NEVER 'Lost'.
Energy simply changes form,
From motion, to heat, to light, etc.

Chemical energy (say, coal or methane) can be oxydized (burned) to produce light & heat,
That light & heat is dispersed into the atmosphere where it changes form again,
Heat rises to produce motion in the air column, etc.

Never created, never lost.
 
Now, having read the the linked information from Mr. Guffey,
I see TWO huge holes in the basic thinking of the article author.

1. Zero reference to electrical induction (magnetic) annealing.
Electrical induction annealing has been around in industry since the 1950 with the advent of electrical semi-conductors.

Electrical induction was used during WWII by using high speed 'Switching' before semi-conductors, simply by using a rotating commutator for switching.
Way to power inefficient and equipment intensive but for anything other than military use.
Semi-conductors made the process 'Solid-State', no moving parts required,
This made it cost effective & reliable for common industry.

This is NOT a 'New' technology, and it's been used in heat treatment of metals since the 60's that I know about directly.
Why it's such a foreign concept to 'Reloaders' I have no idea,
Microwave ovens have been doing the same thing with food for most of your lives...
 
The second big flaw in the article referenced was the complete and utter lack of scientific OBJECTIVE testing procedures.

The article references 'Vice Grips' as a 'Testing Tool' for case 'Ductility' tool.
The author RECOMMENDS cranking down a 'Vice Grip' to squeeze the case and see if the case 'Springs' back into shape...

Now, he DOES NOT tell you how much to 'Crank Down' the vice grip!
No SPECIFIC pressure to be used,
No SPECIFIC deflection (crush), just "a few thousands",
Would that be 0.002" or 0.200"?

The ENTIRE PREMISE of that particular article was based on 'COLOR' or 'COLOR CHANGE'.

It's well established scientific fact that every single human eye sees color differently.
From color blind entirely to hyper sensitivity to color...

Every single point the author made was SUBJECTIVE to the person doing the work,
NOT OBJECTIVE to common scientific standards that can be quantified absolutely.
No ABSLOUTE amount of pressure to apply to the case,
No ABSLOUTE amount of deflection/distortion the case is supposed to 'Spring Back' from,
No color gradient standard to define 'Slightly Bluish' color you are supposed to look for,

And the most glairing omission,
ZERO hardness testing, which is the entire point of annealing!
Not one single mention of Rockwell hardness testing, or any other quantifiable system/method of testing hardness,
While reducing 'Hardness' is the entire point of the article!
 
Like I've said over & over again...
I don't care 'IF' you anneal or not. That's entirely up to you.
I don't care if you use gas, lead pot, resistance/load or induction annealing if you choose to anneal.

What I did care about was the passing of disinformation, misinformation & superstition.

Now it's just not worth the time & effort involved.
 
Good grief, folks.

- Find a temperature indicator and either use it inside the case neck for big
..diameter cases (750°); or ¼" below the shoulder on bottleneck cases (450-475°)

- Use Propane (not MAP) and aim the medium flame tip at the neck/shoulder
..junction, angled out toward the mouth.

- Spin the cases for uniform heating -- fingers in a pinch, drill recommended.

- Drop on soft dishtowel/no water

Walk away.....


.
 
In other threads I participated in people made it seem like "I" over complicated it lol:D . Annealing is for sure a science but it ain't rocket science ;)
 
- Use Propane (not MAP) and aim the medium flame tip at the neck/shoulder
..junction, angled out toward the mouth.
Click to expand...

Mehavey, O.K., you use propane and not MAP, if there was a science to annealing and MAP is hotter wouldn't it take less time with MAP? Going the other way and a reloader chooses to use a candle wouldn't it take longer? And then we take how the case is held into consideration, especially if the case is held in the hand.

Again, there are rules and factors, I do not know how many miles of tubing I have joined, because of one of the rules I will not join copper pipe without a glove on the left hand. I am not talking about inches from the joint I am talking about feet.

And then there are fundamentals, something like; what does a reloader need to know and what dies a reloader have to know. Based on this thread I would say the general consensus is the reloader does not have to know anything before starting. It seems all they have to do is go electric. In my opinion that is as 'bedie-eyed' (tunnel blind) as it can get.

I am the fan of the 210° panoramic view and I make no excuses for it. Again I decided to start annealing, I avoided the tunnel blind types and took information from all sources; and then I build a tool for annealing. I took a few to gun shows and did not sell a one. Not my fault they could not get their minds around something they had never seen before and did not understand.

I call that prodigious, I was asked to teach a class on prodigious; I agreed but I have to do it differently, I started by convincing the participants they were prodigious; that class had to be shut down before it got started because prodigious is an ugly thing and no one believes they have a fault.

The old professor running the program said he had never enjoyed himself more; right up to the point but before that mob did me harm.

F. Guffey
 
Mchavey,
I agree with not using mapp gas,
I wound up with overheat & alloy component seperation at point of contact before the heat effect zone reached target temperature, including inside the case shoulder area.

While brass alloy is considered an excellent conductor of heat,
The conduction wasn't fast enough to avoid overheating the case OUTSIDE at the point of contact.

I'm sure a fanned tip would have helped the issue,
It was just more simple to switch back to propane than to drill out/deform a torch tip that was working with propane.

I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Mr. Guffey tried to market an annealing rig, and that endeavor failed.
 
I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Mr. Guffey tried to market an annealing rig, and that endeavor failed.
Click to expand...

And this threads reminds me of Amos and Andy, they had a problem getting the 'WHOA' in front of the 'BANG!'.

I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Click to expand...
And I believe you are making this stuff as you go.

F. Guffey
 
and I asked if one has more heat? wouldn't the time be reduced. And then there are different diameter orifices when there is a fixed flow without an adjustment. And then there are adjustments.

It is like one of those 'liken-to' things. There was this black smith hammering out horse shoes while a reloader was watching. The smith threw a hot horse shoe into the sand to allow for cooling and the reloader walked over and picked it up then immediately dropped it. The smith said to the reloader; "hot wasn't it?" and the reloader said to the smith after removing his smoking fingers from his mouth; "naw, it wasn't hot it just didn't take me long to look at it".

F. Guffey
 
With the holidays behind us I want to experiment a little with induction heating. Likely not till around mid February as we have travel plans late Jan. and early Feb. I remember the other thread where it was tossed around. It will take some experimenting but may be worth screwing around with. More a curiosity thing than much else and I am not about to buy one of the commercial flavors available just to anneal brass.

Ron
 
I *Think* the issue might have just come out!
Mr. Guffey tried to market an annealing rig, and that endeavor failed.
Click to expand...

RIg? Again, I said there were simple rules and factors; I applied the simple rules and factors and made a tool that can be used to anneal cases. There was/is no way I can miss. Again, I form cases, when forming cases annealing (my opinion) is required. The case must be annealed before forming (my opinion). When annealing for forming the case must be annealed down to the position of the new shoulder. And then there are new cases; annealing may not be required.

I would like to say the tool is fool proof but that would be most difficult to prove because fools do not read and they have about the same difficult when listening.

The tool is fool proof for a reloader that has basic skills and understand the minimum necessary information for annealing like rules and factors.

F. Guffey
 
MAYBE IF YOU CLEARLY STATED THOSE RULES & FACTORS SO PEOPLE COULD DECIDE IF THEY WERE NEEDED OR ACCURATE...

Anyway, working on 3rd generation of production electro-magnetic annealer, getting some unexpected help from an electrical engineer (due to these posts) that has cleared things up for me.
Since he worked for both ATK/Federal & Winchester on induction annealing units, and he speaks plain English, he's already helped me with a couple issues...

Seems I have Mr. Guffy's 'Spring Back' issue already in the can and didn't even know it.
The stretch/compression dyno I was using plots force AND MOVEMENT at the same time.
Didn't open the spread sheet far enough to look at RETURN movement.
Turns out you CAN anneal once fired NATO brass for not only Rockwell tester hardness, but the amount of force applied, compression movement, and since the machine was designed to test rebound, it also charts the rebound ('Spring Back') and beginning/end cycle contact in ABSLOUTE numbers!

Force required to move the case, distance case/ram moves, and where the case returns to when pressure released, but also total difference in case size because the unit uses electrical current to tell when contact is made and broken.

Turns out you can not only reproduce Rockwell specification, but you can restore case 'Spring Back' to within 1/4 gram of factory unfired cases with the correct annealing...

If Mr. Guffey hadn't said it couldn't be done and posted that otherwise useless article on vice grip & plumbers torch annealing I wouldn't have thought to ask the testing operator about checking for rebound.
Turns out it was data logged the entire time, it just wasn't what I was looking at!
I'd say 0.0005" or less is a good place to start since that's where brand new Winchester brass rebounds back to...
 
JeepHammer, it would be sweet if everything you post were in a single thread. You had some really good material in the thread where you started on induction heating and now this thread. Where I see a problem is a wealth of good stuff and your research will end up all over hell's half acre.

Ron
 
Rule 1. Get above 650*, closer to 730*F.
Rule 2. DO NOT go much above 750*F.
Rule 3. If you reach 800* the 'Brass' is pretty much scrap.
Rule 4. If it shoots good & reloads well, you are doing it correctly for your application.
Rule 5. If it doesn't reload well or is inaccurate, you did it wrong.

This endith the 'Rules'...
 
I can't believe this thread is still going on . If you all haven't , please do your self a favor and put him on your ignore list . Trust me your reloading life will be better for it .
 
With all the advice I got annealing
Down.
I can anneal the military
Brass down to 1.623
Without making the brass
To hot. Switched back to
Propane.
 
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