Question about annealed brass

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LongShot,
There are YouTube videos on electrical induction units made from scrap salvaged parts.
Some guys have no experience with electrical ANYTHING, and we actually had a thread on an open source annealer for reloaders...
Something easy to build with easy to follow diagrams.
 
Marco , the water pan, tip over is the Norma way. Which ,over the years , I have quoted in full and also in part. Anyone listening ??
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No; they are shouting, "Pick me", "Pick me". As John said: all were partially in the right and all were in the wrong.

F. Guffey
 
AFAIK, 260 brass (cartridge brass) has always been nominally 30% Zinc. 40% zinc is Muntz metal as was used to cover wooden ship hulls to prevent ship worms or other life forms from attaching themselves. Brass with zinc in the middle 30% range (31.3-37%, according to Matweb) is just common yellow brass. All have been used to make cartridge cases at one time or another. The higher zinc alloys were used for a time during WWII when copper was carefully husbanded.
 
We call cartridge casings 'Brass' because what we see most of is made of brass.
Casings have been paper (cellulose), steel, aluminum, zinc, lead, copper, bronze & all kinds of brass.

Content of alloys varies my manufacturer.

Anyone that *Thinks* anything written about annealing in an outdoors magazine 40 years ago is wrong.
Anyone that thinks a 'Reloading' manual from 30 years ago is the last word is wrong.

The alloy mix is constantly evolving, no one uses the same base brass alloy, processing changes the base brass alloy (as does annealing done incorrectly, mostly overheating)...

There isn't one single CURRENT dissertation on cartridge brass annealing 8 can find, outside of proprietary factory information, and that's hard to lay hands on.

The ONLY way to figure out heat treating of brass (and annealing is heat treating) is to actually do that annealing & testing under controlled conditions.
The guys annealing & reloading several times, up to a couple dozen times, are doing testing.
No the most controlled manner testing, but testing none the less.

I don't care how you anneal, or even *IF* you anneal or not,
What I do care about is "old wives tales" being passed along as 'Fact'.
 
I don't care how you anneal, or even *IF* you anneal or not,
What I do care about is "old wives tales" being passed along as 'Fact'.
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The old poison well thing and insults through innuendo works on everyone but me. That takes us beck to John Godfrey Sax and all being partially right but all in the wrong.

F. Guffey
 
Mr. Guffey, take your meds...
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Again; I am one of the few that is not impressed with your behavior, I quote a parable and it drives you into the curb or it locks you up. There are a number of members trying to contribute.

It has been many years since I made a recommendation to another member about improving his $h!ty outlook on life; he did not take my advise and continued to be uncivil to me and others. I am not an enabler, I have Alabama Leg Dog experience thanks to the good people at Alabama Blue pit.

F. Guffey
 
On a more serious note Guffey:

All any of are saying is that you must have the means to know/regulate the
time/temperature of the brass before any reliable annealing can take place.
 
ReloadRon,
I've found EXACTLY the same thing with headspace adapters, radiuses edges that screw up an 'Absolute' reading.
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So the Hornady tool does have a radius and if a reloader is going to use 'the datum' they must choose the datum that is not case friendly or they must learn to 'zero' the tool. And then there is the big 'OR'; or they must learn to use the tools as a comparator.

F. Guffey
 
On a more serious note Guffey:

All any of are saying is that you must have the means to know/regulate the
time/temperature of the brass before any reliable annealing can take place.
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To be serious? I ask about rules I ask about factors; I said I decided to start annealing cases but I did not get into annealing by monkey see-monkey do. I thought there were a few things that were basic like rules and factors. No one made a list or wanted to contribute.

All any of (us) are saying is that you must have the means to know/regulate the
time/temperature of the brass before any reliable annealing can take place
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and I said I made annealing tools based on rules and factors.
From the beginning I have always thought the best source of information when it come to lead and cases is the:

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

made a list or wanted to contribute.
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And now after all of these years tell me everything you know about the pan, water and case. Again, there has to be rules and factors.

F. Guffey
 
Forgive, I understand I am dealing with reloaders that want to reinvent reloading. I can not reinvent reloading, I can change methods and techniques.

F Guffey
 
Guffey said:
..dealing with reloaders that want to reinvent reloading...
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Neigh, nay... merely that "rules and factors" must always be based on reality (unless you're a democrat ;) )

and those rules and factors are first: known Temperature, and then: Time.

Cheers....


.
 
Again; I am one of the few that is not impressed with your behavior, I quote a parable and it drives you into the curb or it locks you up. There are a number of members trying to contribute
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Mr. Guffey

Please note you do not speak for me, so please do not do so.

JeepHammer does not have a behavior issue, he does have a problem with your posts as do I. I won't speak for others. He got understandably frustrated. Having had some more years in life I have come to realize its better to ignore some things as I do your posts.

I appreciate his posts and sharing and I would very much like him to continue to do so. Yours, not so much.

I find your post very similar to reading Finnegan's Wake. If there is real technical merit there in, it beyond my ken to sort it out. That may be because I am in intellectual cretin and my poor ape mind just can't grasp advanced concepts.

So, while you are pointing a finger, perhaps you could take time out and do a remedial communications class so you can convey much more clearly what you are saying. To quote another parable.

"The truly brilliant know how to make it simple"
 
And now after all of these years tell me everything you know about the pan, water and case. Again, there has to be rules and factors.
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Annealing cycles through this forum and ever other forum; that has to be gigs and gigs of pages without two cents of difference between them. I believe it is a mistake to tell an inquiring mind there is no advantage to using a pan of water and it serves no purpose.

Neigh, nay... merely that "rules and factors" must always be based on reality (unless you're a democrat )

and those rules and factors are first: known Temperature, and then: Time.
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Just my opinion but you are a little short on rules and late with the factors. It was claimed a reloader used a candle; I said the candle was too slow, no one mentioned time and then there was the claim the case was held in the hand while the candle heated the case very slowly. I said the candle would get hot enough but was too slow.

Again, I ask about the case standing in the fan of water; you do not know? Just say you do not know. I believe it is wrong to tell enquiring mines there is no place for the method and or technique in reloadoing.

F. Guffey
 
ReloadRon,
I've found EXACTLY the same thing with headspace adapters, radiuses edges that screw up an 'Absolute' reading.
Click to expand...

So the Hornady tool does have a radius and if a reloader is going to use 'the datum' they must choose the datum that is not case friendly or they must learn to 'zero' the tool. And then there is the big 'OR'; or they must learn to use the tools as a comparator.[/QUOTE]

RC20, how long did it take them to determine the Hornady/Sinclair tool was not a head space gage and at best it was a comparator and then there is the case, the case does not have head space. And there are those reloaders that are not aware of the deck height of a shell holder and after all these years they continue to believe the shell holder and die manufacturer must match.

F. Guffey
 
Jeephammer said:
We call cartridge casings 'Brass' because what we see most of is made of brass.
Casings have been paper (cellulose), steel, aluminum, zinc, lead, copper, bronze & all kinds of brass.

Content of alloys varies my manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Turns out we are talking past each other. You are referring to what brass cartridge cases are made from. I assumed we were talking alloy names, regardless of whether they are used to make cartridge cases or instead are, bar, plate, sheet, or whatever in all their various tempers. That 70:30 brass is called "Cartridge Brass" is undoubtedly taken from the alloy originally being specified for cartridge cases, but it is now a more general term.
 
Regardless of how things 'Used' to be done,
This is the 21st century, science marches on...

Mr. Guffey's impenetrable posts aside,
OBJECTIVE: To impart enough energy to the 'Brass' alloy the molecular structure,
To a point the 'Brass' alloy molecules space themselves & realign.

OBJECTIVE: To NOT over heat the brass to the point the alloy separates into base metal components and looses the properties we value in cartridge brass.

1. Energy Application To Excite Molecular Movement/Realignment (spacing) restoring properties benifical to said 'Brass' (non-ferrous metal alloy),

Imparting energy ONE of TWO ways...
OUTSIDE heat source (flame or heated object), that requires a substantial TIME for the THERMAL ENERGY (heat) to saturate the alloy throughly,
OR,
Magnetic Induction causing the actual molicules of the alloy to create their own 'Heat' through friction with each other.
TIME is substantially reduced with magnetic induction since ALL molicules heat at the same time & at the same rate,

The ADDED benifit of magnetic induction exciting at a molecular level isn't reaching the target temperature,
But the nearly perfect spacing of the molecular grain since every molicule spaces exactly the same when moving.

The 'Brass' alloy literally grain spaces & aligns on a molecular level.

The issues with thermal dynamics (heat inductance & thermal 'soak') is reduced to milliseconds instead of minutes since the alloy restructures itself on a molecular level.

With External heating, there are thermal soak (induction/conduction) times to consider,
A fine line between NOT overheating the outside of the case, while waiting for the inside of the case to reach critical temperature target.
There is a consideration for NOT overheating the base of the case through heat soak (induction/transfer), if you actually believe modern firearms are ONLY viable when a 'Hardened' case is used...

The argument against this would be 'Proof Testing',
Depending on the 'Proof Test', some firearms will hold back anywhere from 30% overpressure to 200% overpressure,
Either way far exceeding the capacity of the case to 'Add Strength' to the chamber...
Two examples of this are civilian 'Factory' cases coming 'Dead Soft' from the manufacturer,
And military cases coming 'Half Soft' at the rim/extractor groove only.

I see the argument of 'Over Annealing' the sides of the case as a scare tactic at best for modern firearms, and at worst an 'Old Wives Tale' passed on out of ignorance.
 
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