Query about Cowboy Action Shooting and Caliber?

The complaint that Cowboy matches are strictly high buck affairs isn't really true.
It's up to the participant how expensive they are.
Before getting involved in other things, I looked into how to get outfitted for SASS and found it could easily be done for well under $1,000.
Actually quite a bit less.
Just for fun, walking around a local gun show at the time, it would have been possible to get outfitted for around $600.
Nothing new or fancy, but plenty good enough to get involved and participate.
_

I would really like to hear how you would have done this.
 
When I was active, I treated it as the Single Action Shooting Society.

I put my money into guns, not clothes. I wore black J.C Penney's slacks with red suspenders, an old dress shirt with silk (OK, rayon) kerchief, and Russian surplus boots. I did buy a nice red brocade vest. My good hat was a doorprize, my regular one was a straw Resistol from the local western wear/feed store.

But I saw people who probably paid more for their boots than I paid for a sixgun.
 
How many of the posters here, who don't participate in SASS, are members of USPSA or IDPA or ICORE or 3 Gun, and regularly shoot matches. A lot of shooters can find something about all of the shooting sports that they don't like, to avoid getting out in front of other shooters and seeing where they stack up. Many people find out "a little information" about these shooting sports and than go on to presume they know all about them and how they operate and base their opinions on this partial knowledge. Missing out on a lot of fun in the process. Mark
 
thickice said:
The complaint that Cowboy matches are strictly high buck affairs isn't really true.
It's up to the participant how expensive they are.
Before getting involved in other things, I looked into how to get outfitted for SASS and found it could easily be done for well under $1,000.
Actually quite a bit less.
Just for fun, walking around a local gun show at the time, it would have been possible to get outfitted for around $600.
Nothing new or fancy, but plenty good enough to get involved and participate.
_

I would really like to hear how you would have done this.
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Slightly modified from a previous post:
I can put together a set of four NEW, SASS legal guns that will come in under $850. Pietta 1851's are currently on sale at Cabela's for $149.99. An NEF Pardner 12 ga can be had for under $130.00. A Rossi 1892 can be had for under $400 - I just bought a .44 mag, new in box, for $397 including shipping. That comes to $826.98
This is for NEW guns, all SASS legal. I'm sure getting it under $600 is easily doable with used guns, and, although it won't likely be the guns you really want, it will be under $600, and all SASS legal guns.
 
I got in to SASS shooting to shoot the guns I already had. I did buy a cheap out side hammer coach gun, (made in china) that after a bit of "tune up" does what I need it to do.
I am not very worried about the scores, just like to shoot at steel with my Colt and Winchester. It is once a month for our 5 "Summer" here in Northern Wisconsin.
 
The guys I shoot with are all easy on SASS rules especially for new people getting started.
Any of you cowboys shooting .44 WCF black powder? I am shooting an original '73 and wonder if it would handle 60 rounds with out a swab out?
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Howdy

Here is the latest batch of 44-40s I turned out, about 150 rounds. Starline brass, Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullet, 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg and Federal Large Pistol primers.

44-40batchof150_zpsb9d45cd7.jpg


I run these through my Uberti 1860 Henry, Uberti replica Winchester 1873, Two original Winchester 1892s, and an old Marlin Model 1894. Sixty rounds is no problem, that is how much rifle ammo I go through at a typical six stage match.


******************



A word about trying to get started in CAS on a shoestring with Cap & Ball revolvers: A lot of guys get seduced by the low price of C&B revolvers. However unless you already have experience with C&B, I suggest you spend a bit more money and start out with cartridge revolvers. Or at least plan to spend a few range sessions getting used to loading and shooting C&B. Cartridges were invented for a reason. Faster to load, less troublesome, and more reliable than C&B. You have not experienced a really frustrating match until you have dealt with hangfires and cap fragments falling down inside the action jamming up the gun on the clock.

C&B revolvers can be tuned up to be much more reliable than they are off the shelf, but it takes time and somebody who knows what they are doing. If you are new to C&B, a match is just about the worst place I can think of to try to get familiar with them. I suggest spending the money on cartridge guns, and later on buying C&B pistols if they still interest you.
 
Absolutely, Driftwood. I certainly don't recommend starting with C&B guns unless a person is already familiar with shooting them - just pointing out that a complete set of SASS legal guns can indeed be had quite inexpensively. I don't recommend starting out with a single shot shotgun either, just pointing out... ;)
 
Model12Win said:
The best thing to is get a .38 special and load about 1 grain of Hodgdon Trail Boss under a 125 grain LSWC bullet.

That way with your bb-gun like recoil you'll be able to stay on target and fire as fast as possible. Cowboy action shooting is about SPEED. Just like the real old cowboys in the Old West, whoever can get the shot on quickist would win the day and go home safe.
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I'm surprised....they actually still use powder in the cases?...... :)
 
^ I'm not sure if it's a requirement or not, but it seems like just a primer and an empty case might work well for rootin' tootin' "cowboy" action shootin' too!
 
Model12Win said:
I'm not sure if it's a requirement or not, but it seems like just a primer and an empty case might work well for rootin' tootin' "cowboy" action shootin' too!
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Then don't be speaking out of turn on something you obviously know nothing about.

While full house BP .44 or 45 Colt caliber loads are not a requirement, (although I do use 31 g of fffg BP in my 44-40s) there is a power factor that must be met by all competitors
 
Howdy Again

I suspect some of the disrespect towards Cowboy Action Shooters comes from what comes across in the media. When the cameras show up, they invariably are drawn to the fastest competitors. So pretty much all you ever see on TV are the very fast shooters shooting very light loads. The cameras seldom focus on any or the middle of the road shooters, or those who march to a different drummer.

This first photo shows my normal pistol load, a 45 Colt stuffed full of Black Powder. You can see by the dipper it carries 2.2CC of Black Powder (about 35 grains) under a 250 grain bullet. Not exactly a primer and an empty case.


completedroundandcomponents.jpg



This second photo is my 44 Russian load, that I was shooting today in my antique S&W New Model #3 and My Merwin Hulbert. About 19.5 grains of FFg under a 200 grain bullet. A much milder load, but it is exactly what those two antique revolvers were chambered for.

44RussianComponents.jpg




This photo catches a case spinning in mid air as I lever another round into my 44-40 Henry, also loaded with 2.2CC of FFg.

But of course, there are experts out there who know that all cowboy shooters shoot mouse farts.

By the way, a squib with just a primer and no powder usually results with the bullet jammed in the forcing cone. Usually does not exit the bore. But the experts seem to know better.

BlackPowderCountryPond_zpsc1361063.jpg
 
DWJ, I can tell by your outfit that you are a cowboy. That being said, the RN bullet on the left, the original 429215, was designed by/for a top match shooter around the turn of the 19th century. I'm guessing a S&W in .44 Russian. I used it in a Colt SAA in .44 Special because the Ideal mold I had cast to .434 that would bump up enough to mitigate gas cutting before giving it up and rechambering to .45 Colt. The bullet next to it is a 429478 an almost duplicate of the 'Anderton' bullet. I have used it in all of my .44 Spec. with very satisfying results, altho it holds less lube than the original design and may not work as well with BP in your .44 Russian. Just a thought.


 
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BTW, I thought the original BP load for the Russian was the same as the Special, 26grs. Do you think the difference was balloon rims?
 
BTW, I thought the original BP load for the Russian was the same as the Special, 26grs. Do you think the difference was balloon rims?
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I have a reprint of a S&W catalog from the turn of the Century in front of me. It states that 44 Russian was loaded with 23 grains of powder and carried a 246 grain bullet. That is the figure I have seen quoted in several places.

Why am I only using 19.5 grains? First, you have to understand that not all Black Powder weighs the same. It is not like using Bullseye or Unique, or other modern powders where great effort is made to keep the powder consistent from lot to lot. Not so with Black Powder, portion out the same volume of different brands and you will probably see variation in weight. The other thing to be aware of is the amount of compression. Simply by compressing the powder more, you can stuff more in. This will partially depend on the distance a bullet extends into the case when fully seated and crimped. The load I use with the 200 grain bullet I use compresses the powder very lightly, only about 1/16".

Yes, there will be slightly less powder capacity in a modern solid head cartridge vs the old balloon head cartridges. The amount of powder I have arrived at which fills a modern case enough that when I seat my bullet it compresses the powder about 1/16", which works out fine for me. Yes, I could stuff in more powder, but I am shooting antiques over 100 years old and have no desire to over stress them.

Interestingly enough, Mike Venturino writes that when the 44 Special first came out in 1908 it duplicated 44 Russian velocity with the same 246 grain bullet.

Venturino theorizes that S&W wanted a sexy new cartridge for the brand new 44 Handejector First Model (Triplelock), so they came up with a cartridge slightly longer than the old Russian cartridge, but with the same ballistics.

Go figure.
 
I don't do cowboy action shooting for the simply fact that I don't like the hammy outfits and silly nicknames. I can go shoot any of my cap and ball revolvers or "old west" style gun without dressing up like Howdy Doody. Few, if any, cowboy action shooters are conscerned in presenting the image of a true 19th century cowboy. Instead, they relish in reliving childhood fantasies by immitating the popular Hollywood image of a "cowboy" that came into being in the late 40s/50s through movies and television. The real life of 19th century cowboys were generally far from entertaining and wouldn't make for good TV.

It just isn't my thing. If I was going to go through all the trouble of getting an outfit and all the guns and accouterments needed, I'd do something like N-SSA and shoot Civil War era firearms in at least a somewhat historically accurate manner.

OP, I would ask yourself if you really want to do this. You could just as easily spend the cash on some highly interesting and fun "Old West" style guns and shoot them at your own leisure, perhaps taking time to learn about the guns REAL history and learning to shoot how the REAL old timers did it. Not worry about how many times you can tag a buckaroo-shaped steel plate with mouse phart loads in your slicked up Ruger Vaquero.

PS: I know what I'm saying is going to offend some people, and I'm sorry. I am just stating my opinion and I mean to offense. I understand some love cowboy action shooting and I respect that.
 
You are absolutely correct. CAS is not historical re-enactment and it is not meant to be. You are completely correct that we are reliving childhood fantasies about the cowboys we saw as kids in the movies and on TV. That's what it is, it is about the myth of the cowboy, not about being a museum piece exactly duplicating the Old West. What's wrong with that?

You do not need to dress up like Howdy Doody, and you do not need to spend much money on clothes. That is a fallacy. A pair of jeans, and a Sears workshirt are completely acceptable. You don't even have to wear cowboy boots and a cowboy hat if you don't want to. Just don't show up in sneakers, shorts, T-shirt and a ball cap and expect to be allowed to shoot.

Going to the range by yourself is fine, but one of the great side benefits of CAS is the camaraderie, which you will not find by yourself at the range. I have made some life long friends, from all parts of the country, which I never would have done if I had not taken up CAS.

And as I have said many times, many of us do not shoot mouse fart loads in Rugers. And many of us have learned a great deal about old guns and the Old West because CAS peeked our interest in these things.

To each his own, but please don't run down a sport that you have no interest in participating in.
 
Just to mention some other options, NCOWS is an organization that emphasizes historical accuracy in its matches.

In SASS, there is the "Classic Cowboy" category that I understand is meant to emulate what a 19th Century cowboy may have dressed and shot.

I know a number of SASS shooters who use honest to Goodness antique guns loaded with period-correct black powder cartridges.

Plenty of ways to play.
 
I do not understand how people can demean an activity that they know
absolutely nothing about. Posters who do that remind me of the old Will
Rogers quote about "Removing all Doubt"
 
I do N-SSA, but have not done SASS.

I can believe Model12's criticisms, though.

But I would not let it stop me from doing that kind of competition shooting if I had the guns to do it.

Even in the N-SSA, some people put more effort into their "costume" than others. There is nothing that says that you have to dress like "Howdy Doodie". There is nothing stopping you from using a completely accurate 19th century western rig.

A lot of people shoot N-SSA who don't give a hoot about the accouterments. They are there solely to shoot the competition with ACW guns and the clothing is worn simply to get in the gate.

To me, what's fun about these kinds of things is the camaraderie and the competition. It's no different to me than when I was a kid and wore a Boy Scout uniform going camping. The clothes don't make the activity.

Steve
 
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