Query about Cowboy Action Shooting and Caliber?

I'm glad somebody said this before me,,,

#2 The rules of CAS are set-up to keep guys in Leviss with Ball caps, and Single Sixes out of the game. It's a self appreciaton society. The realism they try to uphold means shooters must look and live the part. Sure there were .22's back then but the guys who wrote the rules decided that if you want toply, you;re gonna pay. It keeps the dreges of the shooting world OUT of the game.
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I'm glad somebody said this before me.

I joined SASS back in 1995,,,
I lived in Riverside, CA and hung with the Coto Cowboys,,,
I was not friends with them but I knew all of the original Wild Bunch.

This is exactly what one of them told me one evening,,,
That they purposefully designed the gun and cartridge rules,,,
To ensure that their game stayed in a certain economic category,,,
They wanted it to be somewhat expensive to attract a higher class clientele.

One way that poor folk like me could afford to play,,,
Was to have a troop of shooters who shared their guns.

There were four people in my cadre,,,
We each owned one gun apiece,,,
Everything was .357 Magnum,,,
So we reloaded .38 Special.

We even shared the same gunbelt & holsters.

The vast majority of the SASS membership are fine and fun folk,,,
The founders knew exactly what economic level they wanted to attract.

That doesn't make the founders bad people at all,,,
They just knew what they wanted and designed SASS to fit their desires.

Basically,,,
Their game - their rules.

That is what stopped me from shooting in SASS,,,
I started university full-time in 1998,,,
I couldn't afford to play anymore.

I am still a subscribing member with a 4-digit badge number,,,
But on the rare occasion I go to a SASS shoot,,,
It's just to watch, gab, and socialize.

I'm now in that economic class that can afford SASS,,,
I just spend my money in other gun related areas as of late.

Aarond

.
 
Jim Watson said:
You gonna have to 'splain that one to me Jbar. To say those are "in a caliber commonly available in revolvers" is really stretching the definition of "commonly available."
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The RO committee has ruled on this, and the catch may very well be in the wording - caliber instead of cartridge.

The caliber .356 - .358 is common, as is the caliber .400 or .401 (38-40), and also the caliber .45 (.452 - .454)

There are also a couple gunsmiths converting 1873's and Marlin 1894's to chamber and shoot .45 acp.
http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=224024
 
Where is that dead horse smilie???? If you want to shoot Cowboy Action Shooting; you have to follow the rules of the game; whether it be SASS or NCOWS. There are certain firearms and clothing requirements. GET OVER IT.

Guess what, there are firearms requirements in all the other shooting disciplines too. You know; $30,000 trap guns, $3,000 .45 autos, $1500 ARs & $1,000 shotguns in 3 gun; and don't even get me started on Bass fishing ($10,000 boats) or golf ($100 plus per club and $100 per round plus cost of cart), etc., etc.

Sheesh :(
 
The caliber .356 - .358 is common, as is the caliber .400 or .401 (38-40), and also the caliber .45 (.452 - .454)
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What? When did the rules committee make that ruling? If that is true, why does the handbook list specific cartridges, ie: .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt? Those are not calibers, such as .356 or .45, those are specific cartridges.

The deal with 45 ACP is it has been commonly chambered in revolvers since 1917, specifically the Colt and S&W 1917 models. That's why 45 ACP is allowed, because it has been 'commonly available in revolvers', including the S&W Model 25. Heck, I have a Ruger Blackhawk that I bought in 1975 that has an auxiliary 45ACP cylinder. Notice it does not say commonly chambered in single action revolvers. Just revolvers. I might add that in ten years shooting CAS I have never encountered anybody shooting 45 ACP in any of their guns.

The misconception some folks have is that CAS is limited to cartridges that were commercially available in the 19th Century. That is not what the rules say. If that were true, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, and 44 Mag would not be legal. But they are. The deal is they have to be cartridges commonly available in revolvers, not limited to a specific time period.

40 S&W is much more of a stretch. The only revolver that I am aware of chambered for 40 S&W are the Ruger Vaqueros that had two cylinders, 38-40 and 40 S&W. They are as rare as hen's teeth, not very common. As far as 9mm is concerned, well, that's a new one on me. Never heard tell of anybody shooting 9mm in a CAS match, despite the fact that a few Rugers were issued with 357 Mag and 9mm cylinders.

You know; $30,000 trap guns
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I shoot Trap every week. I have only run into one or two Trap shooters who shoot a gun that expensive. My favorite Trap gun is my 1923 vintage Model 12 that I paid $350 for. Most of the Trap shooters I compete with shoot far less expensive guns than Krieghoffs.

However, it is true, the CAS rules state what is legal. If you don't have a gun that meets the requirements of the rules, don't expect to be allowed to shoot something in competition that does not meet the requirements.
 
I've shot 9mm in a convertible Blackhawk in a match a couple times, once just last year. I've shot .45 acp in a convertible Uberti many times, and I've shot .40 S&W in one of my three convertible Vaqueros once last year, and one other time a few years back. I don't think the other two, consecutively numbered, have ever had a round through the .40 S&W cylinders, but I've shot them all extensively with the .38-40 cylinders.

I don't know the why of it, just making an assumption based on the wording. It's been discussed on the SASS Wire before and the RO committee has stated they are legal cartridges. I believe the .32 acp is also legal, when used in a convertible cylinder in a Nagant revolver. Based on the 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 acp being legal, I would assume the 10mm in a convertible Blackhawk would also be legal.

The book does indeed list specific cartridges, but here is the exact wording: Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt.

There are many, many more legal cartridges than these, such as .25-20 (rifle), .32 S&W, .32 S&W long, .38 S&W, 7.62x38R, .38 short Colt, .38 long Colt, .38-40, .41 Colt, .41 magnum, .41 special, .44 special, .44 Colt, .44 Remington, .44 Russian, .44 S&W, .45 Schofield, .45 auto rim, and the Cowboy .45 special.
The book states: Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers, and a few of these are not commonly chambered in revolvers, but are legal nonetheless. Colt's SAA has been chambered in something over 30 cartridges, and I would assume all of them between .32 and .45 would be legal cartridges.

It would be interesting and helpful if the Wild Bunch would compose a master list of all legal cartridges for the game, but I've never seen or heard of such a list.
 
I am well aware that the list in the handbook is not all inclusive. My point is that the examples sited are specific cartridges, not rifling groove diameters.
 
Only thing I'd want to change in SASS would be in regard to the Wild Bunch matches. I would like to see DA revolvers of the type available then allowed (skinny-barrel M&P's, N-frame .44Spl). They would be as competitive as the 1911's and would open WB to revolver shooters.
 
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There's really only one reason to complain about cowboy style matches.
Too danged many guns to clean!
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Who cleans guns every time they are shot? Not me. Black Powder, yes, Smokeless, no way. They get cleaned when they need it.

Only thing I'd want to change in SASS would be in regard to the Wild Bunch matches. I would like to see DA revolvers of the type available then allowed (skinny-barrel M&P's, N-frame .44Spl). They would be as competitive as the 1911's and would open WB to revolver shooters.
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It is not an officially recognized category, but some clubs have a Pike category, named after the William Holden character in the movie. I have shot 1917 Smiths and early M&P 38s in the Pike category at one club. That's why I like to go there, if you have cool old guns, you can usually use them.

I have also shot a couple of antique S&W 44 Double Actions at a couple of clubs. Just local matches, nobody gets upset about stretching the rules a little bit. I only shoot them single action, and everybody knows I am not going to go home with the gold Cadillac at the end of the day.

Two44DAs02_zps927bf180.jpg


And therein lies a lesson. If you actually show up at a match, and get to know folks, and they get to know you, you can usually do some relatively unconventional things. But only if you actually show up, rather than sniping at a sport you have never tried from behind a keyboard.:)
 
but the rest were just plain nasty.
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My experience with the cowpokes was similar to SanctusBells, the ratio of jerks to regular folk was close to 50/50. Besides the ridiculous 'power factor', the amount of nasty romeo foxtrots was staggering. This was some years ago and maybe these cowboys gave up the game to pursue being serial killers. The small amount of sniping (get it?) in this thread suggests there are more unhappy cowboys than gay caballeros. I wish I could find the particular forum again just to see if the they had lightened up.
 
My experience with the cowpokes was similar to SanctusBells, the ratio of jerks to regular folk was close to 50/50. Besides the ridiculous 'power factor', the amount of nasty romeo foxtrots was staggering. This was some years ago and maybe these cowboys gave up the game to pursue being serial killers. The small amount of sniping (get it?) in this thread suggests there are more unhappy cowboys than gay caballeros. I wish I could find the particular forum again just to see if the they had lightened up.
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That has not been my experience. Perhaps the club you showed up at was the exception. I have shot CAS now for over ten years in seven different states. Yes, you will run into different personalities, but by far the great majority of people I have met have been friendly, outgoing, and ready to lend me their equipment if mine brokedown. I can honestly say in all that time there is only one person I have shot with who I refuse to posse up with anymore. You can run into a jerk anywhere, but there are not that many in CAS.
 
I've been shooting cowboy since 2010. I don't travel as much as some shooters; I've shot matches in the Carolinas and Florida and visited a club in Texas. In my experience cowboy shooters are the most friendly and helpful of shooters. The "ratio" of unpleasant people is low. This is consistent with the "culture" of cowboy shooting.

With any rule there are exceptions.
 
The "ratio" of unpleasant people is low. This is consistent with the "culture" of cowboy shooting.
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I stand corrected, this was a web forum of some years back and maybe anonymity allowed unpleasant people to be unpleasant.


This is exactly what one of them told me one evening,,,
That they purposefully designed the gun and cartridge rules,,,
To ensure that their game stayed in a certain economic category,,,
They wanted it to be somewhat expensive to attract a higher class clientele.
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Having a larger income doesn't insure a higher class clientele, eg our ruling class.
It may encourage a bit of snob appeal by making it dificult for the peasants to play.
 
This is exactly what one of them told me one evening,,,
That they purposefully designed the gun and cartridge rules,,,
To ensure that their game stayed in a certain economic category,,,
They wanted it to be somewhat expensive to attract a higher class clientele.
Click to expand...

Having a larger income doesn't insure a higher class clientele, eg our ruling class. It may encourage a bit of snob appeal by making it dificult for the peasants to play.
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Whether or not the attributed quote is true, bear in mind that CAS started back in the 1980s. I can assure you that there is very little high end snobbery in CAS today. Yes, there are a few of us who actually shoot real Colts and antiques, but the great majority of CAS shooters are hard working folks who like to shoot old fashioned guns, and there is very little snobbery in CAS today.
 
The guys I shoot with are all easy on SASS rules especially for new people getting started.
Any of you cowboys shooting .44 WCF black powder? I am shooting an original '73 and wonder if it would handle 60 rounds with out a swab out?
 
The best thing to is get a .38 special and load about 1 grain of Hodgdon Trail Boss under a 125 grain LSWC bullet.

That way with your bb-gun like recoil you'll be able to stay on target and fire as fast as possible. Cowboy action shooting is about SPEED. Just like the real old cowboys in the Old West, whoever can get the shot on quickist would win the day and go home safe.
 
44 Dave said:
The guys I shoot with are all easy on SASS rules especially for new people getting started.
Any of you cowboys shooting .44 WCF black powder? I am shooting an original '73 and wonder if it would handle 60 rounds with out a swab out?
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With subs, or a big lube groove, such as on a Big Lube bullet, yes.
 
Just like the real old cowboys in the Old West, whoever can get the shot on quickest would win the day and go home safe.
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Except, most in those days were using 'factory' blackpowder loads or cap/ball loads... not the wimp loads that 'some' of the CAS shooters use today just to 'win'... Not quite in the 'spirit of the game' from my point of view :p . However, I can't throw stones as I don't participate or plan too .... just my observation of an outsider looking in :) .
 
The complaint that Cowboy matches are strictly high buck affairs isn't really true.
It's up to the participant how expensive they are.
Before getting involved in other things, I looked into how to get outfitted for SASS and found it could easily be done for well under $1,000.
Actually quite a bit less.
Just for fun, walking around a local gun show at the time, it would have been possible to get outfitted for around $600.
Nothing new or fancy, but plenty good enough to get involved and participate.
 
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