Put your favorite manufacturers on a shelf. :)

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The semi-customs are completely hand fit. Period
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Sorry, but that is crap. Like I said, the term "hand fit" is being used very loosely. The pieces are NOT over spec and fit down. They are not hand produced or even significantly altered to match a particular gun. The fact that the parts can be removed from one and put on another, like ordering a replacement part, is proof of that. They are mass produced pieces of a puzzle and the fact that one person is putting all the pieces together does not make them custom in any way. The most "hand fitting" that is occurring is simple finish work, some minor filing, and the occasional burr being sanded off. None of this is even needed with proper modern production. As for whether hand polished looks better, the surfaces being fit are not even visible.

Like I said, the simple fact is that I have seen the parts side by side and the quality difference is small to non-existent. In fact alot of the parts are the exact same parts.

In fact I will go as far as to say the ideal way to build a gun would not be to use a single gunsmith for each gun. I would want the best gunsmith from each aspect of the gun working on each gun. When I build a house I do not hire a jack of all trades to build the whole thing. I have a plumber do the plumbing, an electrician do the wiring, etc.

I could care less that we disagree on the quality or value of the guns in question. I just hear all the time how the "differences are obvious" when looking at an Ed Brown or the like and I can tell you that is not the case as far as I can tell. I would like to know what those supposed differences are and just how obvious they are truly.
 
Remember the final scene in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly?

Let's just give one of them a Glock, one a Brown, and one a Dan Wesson.

Make much of a difference?
 
I have liked your posts and gun photos for several years now. But, ah, son, you have committed blasphemy! Everyone here knows that GLOCK is numero uno. Just wait till the Glock people see that you have put it in, ugh, 3rd place. I want to be a fly on the wall for this one.
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I am pretty safe for two reason. Most Glock-o-philes cannot read and the ones that can usually cannot shoot straight. :D
 
Sorry to hear that PBP, your G29 and all. But, have heart, practice, practice, and then practice!
 
Top shelf)
1) Strayer voight infinity
2) strayer-tripp int.
3) les Baer QCB
4) springfeild armory TRP operator or Tgo.
5) S&W perfomance shop jm 625 as well as their signature dk 1911.
6) kimber super match II
7) H&k MK 23.

Second shelf:
1) glock 34-35
2) HK USP (I can smith my own glock and it will always go bang for $300 less.
Forgot kimber custom target II
3) S&w #66, 686, 41, 29, 627,
4) tangfolio elite series
5) tangfo-CZ-EAA's
6) sig p220-239
3rd shelf:
1) Springfield xd
2)s&w mp
3) glock 17-26
4) rock river 1911's
5) springfeild armory 1911 GI.
6) Kimber custom II (should be #1)
 
I'd have to agree mostly with PBP's well thought out and concise post, but one thing I would add to top shelf is the HK P7.
 
I agree with most of your choices, but a few on the 4th shelf.
My EAA Witness, has a fit and finish as good as my Glocks, or CZ's.

RIA, I was leary about. But then had a chance to handle a Tactical Commander, and the appear to have kicked it up a notch in the quality dept. So much so, I think that I am going to pick one up tuesday, when the gun shop opens.

I also am on the fence on DW(no offense). I just picked up a LNIB, pre CZ D.W. the fit and finish is PHENOMENAL(to say the least), It has to be one of the most solid production SA, I have ever dealt with. So as a production run gun, top shelf. But over guns in general, 2nd shelf.

Here is another let down...Freedom Arms. INCREDIBLE fit, AWESOME tolerance, ****-poor finish + 2nd shelf. Even tho it's a "field grade"(Ie satin finish, pachmayers, in lieu of polish finish, and wood/mica), there is horrible casting marks around the trigger guard, and tooling marks througout the gun. Under the grip, is NASTY, to say the least. I was really disappointed when I saw that, and because I was not the original owner....no love from FA:mad:
 
My next question is why you ask to rank makers but then divide the maker. The Performance Center is still S&W and not a seperate maker.
 
i think these belong in top shelf

fn hi-power

well i was also going to go for these:
p7
p88

then i realized that your shelves are for current production items
 
The only legitimate considerations (for a handgun) are carryability, reliability, capacity, and effectiveness.


Looks and history are for collectors. I know a guy who's got thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of frickin' helmets in his attic. It's a disease.


If you've got a gun that holds a lot of competent cartridges and puts them where you want when you pull the trigger, the brand name doesn't matter.


Also, guns are like cars in that price and quality don't track each other very well. Mercedes costs more than Honda, but Honda is probably the better made car.
 
Shelfs

PBP...thanks for the good read. Guys like me learn a load from the controversy you stir up and its appreciated.....sorta like watching Jimmy R and his girl makeout in the hayloft 1954!!
 
just curious...

The M&P has promise but is a bit blobbish
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"blobbish"?

looked it up even,no luck.:D

like a blob maybe?

personally,the look itself has taken time to grow on me...but ive always thought it had some of the sleekest lines ive seen on a polymer.

...i guess the grip may look a little "blobbish"(yet its still slim/sleek...if thats possible).
 
My Shelves

A slightly more simplified version

Top:
H&K
S&W
FN
GLOCK
Les Baer
Browning
Colt
Walther​

Middle:
Kimber
Ruger
Springfield Armory Inc
NAA
EAA
CZ​


Bottom
Kel-Tec
Taurus
Jennings (and all variants thereof)
Hi Point​

I like to compare the whole company from their product line breadth, history, quality to customer service versus just one model or series.

just my opinion
 
PBP,

Ah, Seecamp made it onto your "Top Shelf".

I've hung around this board for quite a while, and I've noticed that you have an inexplicable tendency to gush about Seecamp's products. Why this is, I've never been able to understand. I do own one of the .32s, and, though it performs adequately, the adulation you heap upon Seecamp seems excessive to me.

For the Seecamp pistols to be placed in the company of Ed Brown and Les Baer is amazing. I don't know what can have so impressed you about the Seecamp - and not impressed you in the case of some of the other brands you put on the lower shelves - to make you exalt them to the heavens in this manner.

Let me quote what you said about them in the original post:

Seecamp: A true marvel of engineering with excellent fit and finish. A true one of a kind.
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A "marvel of engineering", you say. A "true one of a kind". These are strong words indeed. Though I understand that this thread is not the place for it, I would be intrigued to hear why the Seecamp is such a "marvel" and what about it is so unique (aside from the very irritating inability to have its slide retracted fully with the magazine removed :mad:). If, by calling it "a one of a kind", you are referring to the unprecedented size/power ratio of the .380 model, well, it may be unique in that respect. But I'm assuming you are judging the guns on the basis of quality alone, because you said so in the original post.

I think the Seecamp is a quality gun. It works as it should, and its fit and finish are acceptable/good. But so are the fit, finish and function of tons of other upper mid-grade firearms like S&Ws, Sigs and Kahrs. There's nothing I can think of about the Seecamp pistol that makes it in any way better than those brands and many others I haven't mentioned. Nothing at all.

I know that five categories are really too few to allow all the proper distinctions to be made regarding where a handgun fits in the pecking order. But from reading your posts on numerous occasions, it seems that no praise is too good for them in your eyes.

In reality, there are numerous guns of just as good if not higher quality that you have placed on lower shelves.
 
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i think most of teh choices are about right.. however they seem a little biased in their explanations.. especially in the bottom shelf area.

some firearms others consider bottom shelf, work just as well as top shelf firearms. they just arent as astehtically pleasing or put together as tightly..

in fact, really i dont think we can put firearms in a "shelf" assignment. there are too many criteria. whereas with alcohol.. there are only about 3 criteria to consider.
 
I personally wouldn't put dan wesson, colt or performance shop smiths in the top shelf. Alot of people think the difference between the regular and performance shop versions is hardly worth the price increase. I would take any prelock smith over a post lock performance center gun. I would put smith 41's in the top shelf catagory though. I would put the HK P7's as top shelf as well. I would stick STI and RRA in top shelf too. Fusion could be added to your list as well and this would be a top shelf item.

I would drop dan wesson, colt and both smith versions in the #2 slot. I would drop para to #3. Beretta would go to #3 as well. I would add charles daly to #4 and I can agree with the #5's and add davis to it.
 
I should clarify my STI selection to topshelf. I would consider lawmen to trojan's down in #2 and spartans to #3.
 
A "marvel of engineering", you say. A "true one of a kind". These are strong words indeed.
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Name one other gun that manages to do what Seecamp does. One other gun that puts as much quality and performance into as small a package.
i think most of teh choices are about right.. however they seem a little biased in their explanations
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How could they not be biased? They are opinions based on personal experience. :)
 
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