Put your favorite manufacturers on a shelf. :)

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Playboypenguin

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I was meeting with an alcoholic beverage rep yesterday and he kept referring to different makers as "top shelf", "middle shelf", and "bottom shelf" brands. I thought it sure would be nice if someone did this with gun manufacturers also. Then you would know what level you were getting.

Just for fun I decided to set up my own "shelf system" for the brands I either own or have had a good deal of experience with myself. I decided I would need more than three shelves so I did my system with five shelves.

I am only including production level guns and not high end customs. I am including makers like Les Baer and Ed Brown since I do not consider most of their guns true customs. They are pretty much just "small run" production guns.

Below are a list of my five shelves, what each shelf represents quality wise, and which manufacturers are on each shelf. You will notice there are a lot of manufacturers left off my list. That is simply because I do not have first hand knowledge of those makers. Also, some manufacturers might be listed on more than one shelf due to different levels of guns they produce.

Remember, these are just my own personal views. I know everyone does not have the spare time I have, nor are they as OCD, so I do not expect as lengthy lists from anyone else but I would love to hear how you would rate your own favorite and non-favorite manufacturers...or just which ones I listed with which you agree or disagree. :)

TOP SHELF
"These are the cream of the production crop. They go that extra step and produce guns that are exquisite in both form and function. These are true heirloom quality guns."
Les Baer: Finely made 1911
Ed Brown: Another hard to beat 1911
S&W (Performance center): Great S&W guns (both 1911 and revolvers) with just that little additional attention to detail.
Colt: A tried and true maker that still puts a little extra effort into fit and finish.
Dan Wesson: As fine a 1911 as I have ever held in my hand for a very reasonable price.
Seecamp: A true marvel of engineering with excellent fit and finish. A true one of a kind.
Rohrbaugh: Another amazing micro pistol with excellent fit and finish.

2nd SHELF
"These are top notch production guns with high quality fit and finish. Guns anyone would be proud to own and pass down to following generations."
Smith & Wesson (revolvers): The cadillac of the revolver world with both history, quality, and great customer service to back them up.
H&K: Probably the finest polymer pistols made today, IMHO.
Sig Sauer: True tanks that still manage to be refined and attractive as well as solid performers.
Beretta (92, 96, Cheetahs, etc.): True classics with a elegant look and reliable nature.
Kahr (steel guns): Solid made and reliable guns in a small and easy to carry package.
Bond Arms: The most rugged and easy to shoot derringer on the market that is also a great looking slice of history.
Walther (PPK and PPK/S): True classics that deserve all the praise and adoration they receive. Well made, accurate, reliable, and easy to carry.
Springfield Armory (Higher end 1911's): Excellent guns made with quality materials and top notch add-ons. The Loaded series, TRP's, and EMP's are truely great guns at reasonable prices.
Para Ordnance: Amazing little 1911's and 1911 based guns that could easily move into the top shelf if they paid a small bit more attention to detail as far as finishing and improved there gun finishes.

3rd SHELF
"These are still quality guns but they either lack a little something finish wise or are haunted by quality control issues that prevent them from reaching the next level. They tend to be a bit more utilitarian in nature."
Ruger: A rugged and reliable gun, but a little bulky and unrefined.
Springfield Armory (Mil-Spec 1911's and below/Polymers): Good solid guns that are not intended to be high end. They are solid performers but a bit on the plain and "unfinished" end.
Glock: Purely utilitarian guns that are among the most trusted in the world.
Kimber: A very nice gun that could easily be on the next shelf up if not for being plagued by small QC issues.
Walther (Polymers): Good performers but not as sleek and refined (with the exception of the PPS) as they should be and the triggers are not as good as they could be either.
CZ: Good solid guns but nothing too get too excited about. They make some great Browning HP clones.
Uberti: A great quality SA firearm which provides the base for most of the SA makers out there today, but they are not as good as there Ruger and Beretta counterparts.
Smith & Wesson (polymers): They are just not what they could be in my opinion. The M&P has promise but is a bit blobbish and the Sigma line is as "plain jane" as they come. It is as if the polymer market is an afterthought to them.
NAA: Good quality little guns but they are a bit of "niche" line. Not my first, or second, choice for SD.

4th SHELF
"These are guns that I would not own, either because of looks or feel or personal experience, but they do the job well enough that I would not look down on them if someone else liked them."
Taurus: Can be a good gun but plagued with QC issues and haunted by poor customer service.
Bersa: Functional and reliable but I am turned off by low grade finish work and cheap feeling castings.
Charter Arms: Save your money and buy a Ruger or S&W...or at least a Taurus.
Magnum Research (autos): Macho boutique guns. Completely impractical and hard to handle.
EAA: Lower end CZ clones with poor finishes.
RIA: Base 1911's that work.

BOTTOM SHELF
"These are gun I would never own, would not want a family member to own, and would never encourage anyone else to own. Buy them as toys if you like but do not trust your lives to them."
Kel-Tec: Poorly made, poorly finished, unreliable guns.
Hi Point: Cheaply designed and poorly produced bricks. They shoot is about all you can say good about them.
Jennings: A true stinker of the gun world. Renowned for poor performance.
Jimenez: A jennings by any other name is still a stinker.
Raven: See Jimenez.
Cobra: Cheap pieces of mass marketed junk.
 
So.... unless they make a nice 1911 or pocket pistol, it cant be top shelf?


nifty idea, but you're 1911 fanboi status is shining through :p
 
So.... unless they make a nice 1911 or pocket pistol, it cant be top shelf?


nifty idea, but you're 1911 fanboi status is shining through
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You have any that you would like to add to the top shelf?

BTW: Both Colt and S&W (both on top shelf) make revolvers too, ya' know.
 
I would have to agree with most if your placements except for a few. Colt has lost it's shine and should be second shelf at best (maybe their revolvers are top shelf). Paraordnance should be knocked down to third shelf at best due to their spotty quality and only German made PPK/Ss should be considered second shelf. You mentioned that HK made the best polymer handgun out there. I would argue their P7 series certainly deserves level 2 placement. I would also consider bumping S&W semiautos and Berrttas down to third shelf since I consider them inferoor to Sig and H&K in overall quality. You also left Browning off the list which is practically blasphemy. The Hi-power was probably the leader of the Wonder 9 revolution. Their Buckmark pistols are also very well built. I would say they deserve second tier status. That's just my opinion though.
 
If S&W is the Cadillac of revolvers then why is it 2nd shelf? Who is top shelf?
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Because Cadillac is not the top end of cars either. Colt makes a slightly better revolver in my opinion. I also included Smith's Performace Center line on the top shelf and it includes revolvers. :)
 
It depends on the model being discussed.

I would put a Sig X5 in the Top Shelf category. I would put a Springfield Professional (or any other Custom Shop pistol) in the top shelf category... they certainly rate to be next to Ed Brown and others.

Dan Wesson does not belong in the Top Shelf category as they do not offer true custom pistols nor do their pistols share the same level of detail as a Brown or a Springfield Custom Shop gun. I know your like your Dan Wesson, but seriously... let's be realistic here. :)
 
Dan Wesson does not belong in the Top Shelf category as they do not offer true custom pistols nor do their pistols share the same level of detail as a Brown or a Springfield Custom Shop gun. I know your like your Dan Wesson, but seriously... let's be realistic here.
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Yes lets...let's admit that the vast majority Ed Brown and Les Baer pistols are not "custom" guns at all. Just putting the word "custom" in the name does not make it so. They are simply "low run" production guns. :)

I clearly stated I am not including custom guns...only production level. I have detail stripped an Ed Brown Kobra Carry right next to a Dan Wesson and I fail to see the missing detail you are speaking of...and I am a very mechanical and detail oriented person. What specifically am I missing? :)

As for the Sigs. My experience with them is limited. I have not shot the one you mention but what I do know about them solidly earns them a position as a top notch production gun.
 
You obviously have no concept on how guns are built at Brown's facilities or other semi-custom shops. Unlike your Dan Wesson which is an assembly line gun (as are most Springers, Kimbers, etc), all Ed Browns are hand fitted (every single part) by a single gunsmith on their staff.

The reason they're called "semi-custom" is because they have set features, although Brown has been allowing more customizations.

You're right about one thing, Brown makes few handguns a year. 521 in 2007. Why? Because they only build them to order and they build each one from the ground up by hand. I'm sure this will sink in one day... :D
 
You obviously have no concept on how guns are built at Brown's facilities or other semi-custom shops.
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Yes I do. I am quite familiar with what it takes for something to be custom made. I made my living doing that for years.
The reason they're called "semi-custom" is because they have set features, although Brown has been allowing more customization
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They are called "semi-custom" because they are not custom. They are a set gun made in a set way. The size of the assembly line and the number of items produced does not make them custom. He may allow custom work these days but his production line is just that...production. Regardless of what you want to call it. A small run means more time can be spent with each gun, which is why they are so nice, but they are still not custom. :)

PS: I must have missed where you pointed out the obvious differences I missed in my side by side comparison. :)
 
Sometimes I store a couple of my guns on my top shelf in a closet; does that mean that those are better than the others in my safe? (Safe is on floor level.)

I get it! Harder to reach = better quality; hence the term, "top shelf".

I better reorganize my safe!

PBP - I think that regardless of attempting to classify handguns in this manner, you will always find disagreement. And I would venture that even your classification today is different than one year ago, as I would venture that it will be different one year from now.

The handgun that works for you is "top shelf". It is a very personal/subjective decision. Objectively, one can state that a Les B has more time put into it in regard to fit and finish than a Ruger LCP, and few will dispute this.

So, giving allowance for subjective opinion, then stating objectively X brand Y model has a tighter tolerance than Z brand Q model can start being meaningful. Again objectively speaking.

But, somehow it does always seem to come back to that subjectiveness. "I like/love shooting my XXXXX!" Fun/cool factor.

We are a very visual culture. Hi-points seem to put holes in paper just like a Les B. but how many of use want to admit that they can be compared in the same light?
 
You missed the point that a single gunsmith at Browns shop builds a gun from the ground up. You seem to imply they employ an assembly line like that at the Dan Wesson plant, and that's not the case.

As for what you think you saw, how can I comment on that? Are you looking for me to say you lied or are perhaps blind? I'm not sure what you're digging for.

I've obviously had my Browns apart and I've had Colt, Springfield and Kimbers apart and there is a clear difference. The one Dan Wesson I had ordered was flawed so I refused it otherwise I would have done a detailed inspection on one as well. I guess the master pistolsmith that worked on my CBOB came to work drunk that day... :) I do know that Dan Wesson uses parts out of a bin and assembles them on a line just like its peers. If you're suggesting Dan Wessons are hand built and completely hand fitted like a Brown, Nighthawk, Wilson, etc. then you're way off base.

Now, does Dan Wesson use high quality parts? Yes, they do. But do they hand fit each part? No, they don't.

Are you, a craftsman, suggesting that a CNC machined part is actually better looking than a hand polished, hand fitted part? Do you also think mass produced furniture looks better than hand made? If so, why did you do it?
 
You have any that you would like to add to the top shelf?
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Walther P88 and Compact
Walther P5 (every bit as nice as a P7).
Also, the I completely disagree regarding the P99, it is just as good as an HK and the AS version has one of the best triggers on a polymer pistol out there.

Yes, I'm a Walther Fanboy.
 
Pbp,
I have liked your posts and gun photos for several years now. But, ah, son, you have committed blasphemy! Everyone here knows that GLOCK is numero uno. Just wait till the Glock people see that you have put it in, ugh, 3rd place. I want to be a fly on the wall for this one. :D:D:D
 
Kel-Tec bottom shelf ???!

Maybe 4th but not bottom!

I don't find much wrong with Kel-Tecs, they are far from being perfect but they are not all that bad.
 
I only have experience with the following...

Top Shelf

Infinity(Tiki and brethren...its "production":rolleyes:)-Also agree with your choices of 1911.
Hk-As you said, finest polymer guns, also don't forget the p7's.
Colt revolvers


2nd Shelf

Springfield Armory(1911's)
SigSauer
ParaOrdanance
S&W revolvers
Ruger
Seecamp

3rd Shelf

Glock-ugly, reliable guns
SA xd's
Kahr

4th Shelf
I agree and include Rossi revolvers. I would include Magnum Research on the bottom shelf("reserved strictly for morons" should be engraved on the slide) but they function well enough.

Bottom Shelf
I agree with your choices
 
You missed the point that a single gunsmith at Browns shop builds a gun from the ground up. You seem to imply they employ an assembly line like that at the Dan Wesson plant, and that's not the case.
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That doesn't make a gun custom. Many manufacturers do the same thing. One person puts all the pieces together. That does not make the gun any more custom than putting a kit gun together is a custom. A custom gun has to be made custom to an individual need and/or want. That is just not the case. The pieces come from a production line. They are simply assembled by one person. The pieces are not custom at all and neither is the finished piece.
I've obviously had my Browns apart and I've had Colt, Springfield and Kimbers apart and there is a clear difference. The one Dan Wesson I had ordered was flawed so I refused it otherwise I would have done a detailed inspection on one as well. I guess the master pistolsmith that worked on my CBOB came to work drunk that day... I do know that Dan Wesson uses parts out of a bin and assembles them on a line just like its peers.
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You rejected a Dan Wesson based on a small finish blemish if I recall correctly. I have had them open side by side and I see no noticeable difference...and like I said, I am very detail oriented and very picky.

The pieces that make up that "hand fit" gun you are touting fell off the end of a conveyor belt just like the parts in the DW. The term "hand fit" is being used extremely loosely in the case of these guns. The slides are not coming in over speck and being filed down. The most being done is the odd burr being filled off.
 
One might argue that Colt 1911's are no longer top shelf, in fact, they might be resting on their laurels, Say Bud for example. Drinkable, but just barely. Glock? A gun that goes bang every time you pull the trigger 3rd shelf? Me thinks not. The Caddy of revolvers on the second tier? Sounds like an over sight to me for the S&W folks. Taurus or Charter Arms on the same shelf? Why bother with either. If you are going to buy one or the other, at least up grade and buy gun that is at least a step up.
 
That doesn't make a gun custom. Many manufacturers do the same thing. One person puts all the pieces together. That does not make the gun any more custom than putting a kit gun together is a custom. A custom gun has to be made custom to an individual need and/or want. That is just not the case. The pieces come from a production line. They are simply assembled by one person. The pieces are not custom at all and neither is the finished piece.
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Dude, seriously. You're fixating on strawman issues. I'm not saying a Kobra is a true custom in that it was built specifically to my order. I know it's a semi-custom, I've said it. The only difference between a "custom" and a "semi-custom" is the features you get on your gun. The craftsmanship is the same, at least when you're talking about Wilson, Brown, Nighthawk, etc.

The semi-customs are completely hand fit. Period. At least with Browns (I've talked to them at length on the phone) the parts are all made in house. That's all frames, slides, and most small parts. Heck, they sell these parts to other shops like Dan Wesson. Anyway, once a forged frame is run through the CNC system, the final assembly is done by a single smith. That's a level of detail you're not getting with a Dan Wesson or any other run of the mill production line pistol. You may not notice the difference, but many-many people do, myself included. You will too one day, I just know it. I can't wait until that day so I can say "I told you so". :D

Once again we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You think Dan Wesson is on par with Ed Brown, Wilson, Nighthawk, Rogers, RRA, etc. That's fine. You got a heck of a deal in that you can't tell the difference between true top self makers and production line pistols... even being a craftsman yourself. You saved some serious money too... I mean, your $1,000 pistol is just as highly finished as a $2,500 semi-custom in your view.

You might want to stay off the 1911 forums with this blasphemy though... if you go into their forums and tell all those semi-custom and custom owners they wasted their money and your Dan Wesson is just as nice as their pistols inside and out, you'll likely be lynched. :D
 
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