Purchasing a shotgun out of state

[Theohazard]

Holy wow is this confusing.

The details can be confusing, but it's actually pretty simple in a broad sense:

Example A: Do you currently live in state X? If so, you're a resident of state X.

Example B: Do you live in state X but you're on a short-term vacation in state Y or just passing through state Y? Then you're a resident of state X.

Example C: Do you primarily live in state X but you're temporarily living in state Y? Then you're a resident of state Y while you're physically living in state Y, and you're a resident of state X when you're physically living in state X.

Basically it breaks down to this: Where are you currently living at this moment? Of course, complicated situations like you outlined in the first paragraph of post #54 are probably best left to lawyers, but most situations are fairly straightforward, like the OP's situation.

On another note Wisconsin wouldn't let me be a resident for 3 years even though I had a lease for a place, work Id's, resided there 7 days a week. It wasn't till I walked into the DMV with my federal tax documents that they said we SHOULD accept these to prove residency. Then someone finally pushed it through. At the time I was maintaining a mailbox in Michigan because they wouldn't let me in the first 6 trips to the DMV over 3 years.

For the purpose of buying a firearm per federal law, you were a resident of Wisconsin the moment you set foot in the state.

 

[alfredr]

From post #60 by blind stitch, after the code listings, ...intention of making
a home.... Demonstrated by presenting identification documents... Driver's license, voter id, tax records, vehicle registration ".

If he gets nothing like that in Wyoming or Iowa, he shows no intention of "making a home" there, as I understand it, therefore is still a resident of his home state, and not of the state where he is temporarily living.

Home is where the heart is, unless you have documents showing your home is somewhere else.

 

[Theohazard]

If he gets nothing like that in Wyoming or Iowa, he shows no intention of "making a home" there, as I understand it, therefore is still a resident of his home state, and not of the state where he is temporarily living.

Home is where the heart is, unless you have documents showing your home is somewhere else.

No. No, no, no. Where's that "pounding your head against the wall" emoticon like they have over on THR?

Have you read absolutely nothing that Dogtown or I have written so far? Have you actually read the ATF rulings that Dogtown, Blindstitch, and I have posted? That link that Blindstitch provided simply mentions the documents one can use to prove residency, it doesn't say that those documents are needed to establish residency. Residency is established simply by being present in a state and living there (or intending to live there), even temporarily. If you're temporarily living in a state, then you're a resident of that state while you're living there. Period. The ATF is very clear on this.

And in the case you mentioned, he didn't just intend to make a home, he made a home. He's living there. Residency has absolutely zero to do with "where your heart is", it's simply where you live at this moment, even if it's temporary.

Like I already pointed out, the "intention" part has nothing to do with where you feel your original home is. If you cross the border into a state with the intent to actually live there -- even temporarily -- you're a resident of that state the moment you enter that state. The "intent" part is to allow you to be a resident before you actually have a home established since you are planning to establish one as soon as possible.

Also, just because the state might not issue you the proper documentation proving that residency, that doesn't mean the feds don't consider you a resident of that state. Like I said, you're a resident of a state the moment you set foot in that state with the intent to live there. After that, it's up to you to prove it with the proper documentation.

Many people are confused with the federal residency requirements to buy a gun because they think it's way more complicated than it really is. But it's actually pretty simple: Do you currently live in state X? Then you're currently a resident of state X. That's it.

 

[alfredr]

I have indeed read pretty much everything that has been posted although I haven't followed links to read other stuff. What I am trying to say is that the phrase "intention to make a home"' sounds like it ought to put the common sense back into the ATF view of where you are a resident of.

If I do not intend to make or establish Wyoming as my home, I will not register to vote, get my driver's license, register my car, etc. even though I will be living there for several months straight. Thus, if I go to buy a shotgun in Wyoming, I will be an out-of-state buyer and my current residence is still Georgia. ( I don,t have the 4473 form in front of me to know the exact questions asked.)

And I won't have any documents to show my "residence" in Wyoming if the clerk happens to ask where I am living right now. How can I be a resident of Wyoming if I feel I am only there temporarily and don't intend to make my home there. Common sense definition and what the ATF would seem to allow for a sensible interpretation with the phrase "intention of making a home".

A reasonable person's understanding of where they reside is not simply "where they are living at the time." If courts have ruled definitively on this, or if people have gotten into trouble with ATF, whether purchaser or FFL holder, would be evidence that common sense is not acceptable. And that would be quite believable when dealing with the government. But I see it as a reasonable response and don't feel I like need to fear being charged with a felony.

And I believe I have said all I need to about this.

Thanks to all for trying to set me straight on this even though I think your straight looks complicated to me.

 

[Theohazard]

What I am trying to say is that the phrase "intention to make a home"' sounds like it ought to put the common sense back into the ATF view of where you are a resident of.

I think you're missing the point of the phrase "intention to make a home". It doesn't mean that someone can move to Florida, but since they are originally from Texas and they intend to eventually buy a home in Texas someday that means they're a resident of Texas. No, it the word "intent" allows someone to move to Florida and immediately be considered a resident of Florida even if they haven't found a place to live yet.

Actually, I'd argue that the ATF's definition of residency is more common sense than any other definition: It doesn't get all complicated by considering "where your heart is", it doesn't consider where you eventually intend to buy a house and settle down. No, it simply considers where you're currently living at that moment. Pretty darn simple.

My wife and I moved to WA because she got a five-year surgical residency here. Neither of us had any friends or family here. We didn't plan to make this state our permanent home, we intended to move elsewhere after her residency is over. But the moment we crossed the border into WA, we were considered residents as far as the feds are concerned, and that's because both of us intended to live here for the time being.

How can I be a resident of Wyoming if I feel I am only there temporarily and don't intend to make my home there. Common sense definition and what the ATF would seem to allow for a sensible interpretation with the phrase "intention of making a home".

You're a resident of Wyoming because you're living there. It doesn't matter if you don't feel like it's your real home. It doesn't matter that you don't have any documentation that says you're a resident. All that matters is that federal law has a very simple definition of residency that doesn't bother with complications such as where you feel your real home is, it simply defines it as where you're currently living.

But I see it as a reasonable response and don't feel I like need to fear being charged with a felony.

If the ATF used your definition of residency, how would anyone ever enforce it? How does one prove residency based on feelings? How would I prove that I consider Texas my state of residence based soley on the fact that I want to eventually move back to Texas?

Sure, I think we both can agree that you shouldn't need to be a resident of any specific state in order to buy a firearm anywhere in the US. But what we think doesn't matter, all that matters is what the law says and how the authorities interpret it.

And as far as gun laws go, this one is pretty simple and common sense. You're a resident of the state in which you currently live. That's pretty straightforward.

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

Think of making a home in a state as including something more than visiting it for a weekend or vacation. It includes making a temporary home even though you may think that your principal home is in another state. Your home is not the same as your residence under Federal law.

Under federal law while you keep homes in different states, for purposes of gun buying you are a resident of the state in which you both maintain a home and are physically present.

While state law may treat you as being the resident of one state at a particular time, watch out for state laws since a particular state may consider you its resident while the Feds treat another state as such.

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living. You have to be present with the intention of making a home in the state, even if you intend to maintain homes in other states. It can be a single family residence that you are own or rent, and apartment, or an RV. You can sleep on the streets and still intend to make a home.

As for proof of intent, it can be difficult but objective evidence tends to manifest subjective intent. Where do you vote, where are you a member of clubs or religious organizations, and any other contacts with a situs. Compare that with contacts with the state in which you purchase firearms. So you only travel there to purchase firearms? If so it wouldn't be hard to convince the trier of fact, albeit the judge or jury, that you were not a resident of the state in which you bought the firearm.

 

[Theohazard]

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

Residency requires that you make a home in that state. "Making a home" simply means that you've established a place to live and you're currently living there. So how is that different from defining residency as where you currently live?

 

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight ..... Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

You need to read the link I posted on page one of this thread, here it is again:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

The third paragraph begins with A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides.....

Since Question 2 on the Form 4473 asks for the buyer/transferees CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.......it darn well better be where you are actually living.

Everyone loves to rail against ATF for all their faults, but their VERY liberal interpretation of "State of Residence" actually makes buying firearms EASIER. If a gun buyer had to "establish" residency in the same manner as they would to pay taxes, vote, run for public office, serve on a jury, etc.......you guys would be complaining about ATF overreach. The fact is ATF is only concerned where you CURRENTLY reside.

Understand that "state of residence" FOR THE PURPOSES OF ACQUIRING FIREARMS has nothing to do with what a city/county/state requires in order to vote, run for office, etc.

As for proof of intent, it can be difficult but objective evidence tends to manifest subjective intent. Where do you vote, where are you a member of clubs or religious organizations, and any other contacts with a situs. Compare that with contacts with the state in which you purchase firearms. So you only travel there to purchase firearms? If so it wouldn't be hard to convince the trier of fact, albeit the judge or jury, that you were not a resident of the state in which you bought the firearm.

What a load of rubbish. Read the link to ATF Ruling 2010-6 above.

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

dogtown: How do I put this, but you are clueless as to the law of residency for purposes of firearms acquisition.

Theohazard: Good question. Making a home in a state does not mean that you take up residence in a traditional home such as an apartment or a house, whether you rent, buy or squat. You can just as well live in a cardboard box in an alley, pitch a tent in a park, or live in a car or even an RV. What you put down on a 4473 for an address is a problem to address to BATF, but I would imagine that they would have to accept something like Los Angeles or Portland or simply the State of Texas if you didn't have a fixed address.

I know of a similar issue with corporations organized under Nevada law by persons and companies that have no other contacts with that state other than the fact that they incorporate in Nevada and address they give is none other than that of storefront that serves as the location of hundreds of virtual corporations.

 

[Theohazard]

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

Residency requires that you make a home in that state. "Making a home" simply means that you've established a place to live and you're currently living there. So how is that different from defining residency as where you currently live?

Theohazard: Good question. Making a home in a state does not mean that you take up residence in a traditional home such as an apartment or a house, whether you rent, buy or squat. You can just as well live in a cardboard box in an alley, pitch a tent in a park, or live in a car or even an RV.

I'm well aware of that. That's what I've been posting all along. And that's why your following comment is completely wrong:

Theohazard, Federal law does NOT define residence as where you are currently living.

Actually, that's exactly how federal law defines it. The rest of your post even agrees with me on that.

For the purpose of buying a firearm, federal law defines residence as where you're currently living. Whether you own a home, rent an apartment, squat in an abandoned building, pitch a tent, or live in a car or an RV; residence is simply defined as where you're currently living.

 

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight dogtown: How do I put this, but you are clueless as to the law of residency for purposes of firearms acquisition.

Okay smart guy.........show me where anything I posted is incorrect.
I've already pointed out your errors and posted the citation to ATF regulations to back up my opinion.

Now it's your turn.

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

I will let you figure it out. What you think backs up your opinion does nothing of the sort. I suggest you listen to those who wish to waste their time educating you, but I don't have the time to waste and feel no need to validate anything by arguing with you.

Theohazard, The acts I mentioned may not be necessary to establishing residency for firearms acquisition, but they and numerous other acts demonstrate that one's presence is not transient but the individual intends to make a home in the state.

 

[dogtown tom]

Like I said earlier.....RUBBISH.

Dreaming100Straight I will let you figure it out. What you think backs up your opinion does nothing of the sort. I suggest you listen to those who wish to waste their time educating you, but I don't have the time to waste and feel no need to validate anything by arguing with you.

So........you basically admit you have no clue what YOU are talking about. Figures.

 

[FITASC]

Also, just because the state might not issue you the proper documentation proving that residency, that doesn't mean the feds don't consider you a resident of that state. Like I said, you're a resident of a state the moment you set foot in that state with the intent to live there. After that, it's up to you to prove it with the proper documentation.

So when someone in this position goes to the FFL to get his gun, but he has an out of state pic id; he would still be GTG using a utility bill or similar from the state he is currently living in? What about the guy with the RV? How does he convince the FFL he is a current resident of the state he is currently in?

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

Dogtown,

You said that it was rubbish where I pointed out the objective criteria, such as where you vote and where you attend church, can be used to test one's claim of their subjective intent. That is exactly what Rule 2010-6 means where it talks about how "transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State."

The factors I mentioned above in the post you called "rubbish" are just the kind of criteria that one is unable to objectively demonstrate in order to test one's claim of subjective intent.

 

[alfredr]

I said I had said all I needed to say. It appears that reasonable people can still have different understandings of what "residence" and "intent to make a home" can mean.

The original poster can buy his shotgun in Iowa, yes. Whether he buys it as a resident of Texas or of Iowa appears to depend on the interpretation of his FFL.

If his FFL thinks he qualifies and he can show identification documents to confirm his resident status in Iowa, he should also be able to purchase a handgun in Iowa, yes? But if he has no ID with his photo and an Iowa address, I don't think he will be able to buy a handgun while he is there in Iowa, except to have it shipped to a FFL in Texas.

As far as I know, my son in Wyoming for the summer has no intention of "making a home" in Wyo. nor of buying any firearms while he is there. As far as I know he didn't take any with him either. He intends to have a hassle-free summer.

 

[dogtown tom]

FITASC

Quote:
Also, just because the state might not issue you the proper documentation proving that residency, that doesn't mean the feds don't consider you a resident of that state. Like I said, you're a resident of a state the moment you set foot in that state with the intent to live there. After that, it's up to you to prove it with the proper documentation.

So when someone in this position goes to the FFL to get his gun, but he has an out of state pic id; he would still be GTG using a utility bill or similar from the state he is currently living in?

If the transferee/buyers government issued photo ID does not show the current residence address, then the buyer must provide the dealer with alternate government issued documentation that shows the buyers name and the current residence address. A bank statement would not suffice. A utility bill would only be acceptable only if it's from a government entity.
The dealer would record this alternate documentation on Que 20b of the Form 4473.

What about the guy with the RV? How does he convince the FFL he is a current resident of the state he is currently in?

If his drivers license does not show his current residence address, then he has to provide alternate government issued documentation showing his name and current residence address. (This is difficult for many full time RV'ers)

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

FITASC, The issue is covered in another ATF Ruling. ATF Rul. 2001-5.

The old address on the out of state DL can be supplemented with other government issued documentation showing the address used on the 4473, such as a vehicle registration, a recreation identification card, a fishing or hunting license, a voter identification card, or a tax bill. If the utiility company is a governmental and not a private entity, that may be acceptable if you are being directly billed for utilities used at the RV park, which is unlikely if it is a short visit.

Copies of current warrants are always popular.

 

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight Dogtown,

You said that it was rubbish where I pointed out the objective criteria, such as where you vote and where you attend church, can be used to test one's claim of their subjective intent. That is exactly what Rule 2010-6 means where it talks about how "transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State."

The factors I mentioned above in the post you called "rubbish" are just the kind of criteria that one is unable to objectively demonstrate in order to test one's claim of subjective intent.

Sorry bub.........that's NOT what you wrote.

As for proof of intent, it can be difficult but objective evidence tends to manifest subjective intent. Where do you vote, where are you a member of clubs or religious organizations, and any other contacts with a situs. Compare that with contacts with the state in which you purchase firearms.

While ATF says such acts may be used to show an intent to reside in a particular state......they are absolutely NOT required, nor would they be proof of someone's residency. The acceptable proof of residency in a state is clearly indicated on the Form 4473.

So you only travel there to purchase firearms? If so it wouldn't be hard to convince the trier of fact, albeit the judge or jury, that you were not a resident of the state in which you bought the firearm.

This is the part I called rubbish.....and it is.
The requirement to show alternate government issued documentation to the dealer is far better proof of actual residency than showing your membership card to Costco or First Baptist Church. This alternate government issued documentation is required at the time of transfer. Your country club membership card, or any other nongovernmental documents DON'T MEAN SQUAT.

 

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight FITASC, The issue is covered in another ATF Ruling. ATF Rul. 2001-5.

The old address on the out of state DL can be supplemented with other government issued documentation showing the address used on the 4473, such as a vehicle registration, a recreation identification card, a fishing or hunting license, a voter identification card, or a tax bill. If the utiility company is a governmental and not a private entity, that may be acceptable if you are being directly billed for utilities used at the RV park, which is unlikely if it is a short visit.

Copies of current warrants are always popular.

Funny, but for someone that called me "... clueless as to the law of residency for purposes of firearms acquisition." you seem to parrot my posts.