Purchasing a shotgun out of state

Status
Not open for further replies.
FITASC said:
IF he parks his RV on his property when back in TX, then he can use that address; no different than someone adding a Mother-in-Law bungalow behind their house on the same property.
Click to expand...
True, that's a possibility I hadn't thought about.
 
XDforever said:
We are at the address in question for at least 5 months out of the year.

My goodness, I never thought asking a simple question about purchasing a shotgun out of state would have brought this firestorm down upon my head. I am perfectly legal in Texas. My question only pertained to buying a gun out of state.

Thank you guys, Dogtown, and Theohazard, for pointing out the intricacies of the form 4473. I do believe I get it.

Can we now move on?
Click to expand...
You seem to be taking this personally, but we're not trying to attack you at all, we're simply trying to help you avoid committing an inadvertent felony. We've both seen way too many people who didn't understand the federal residency requirements to buy a firearm. And this thread is a perfect example of that.

Several times in this thread you have indicated that you plan to commit a possible felony by falsely listing your Texas address on the 4473 even though you currently rent out that address and you're living in your RV. How is it that you seem offended for us pointing that out?

And I went back and noticed that you appeared to indicate that you don't even live at that address when you're in Texas, which would mean that you committed felonies every time you purchased your other guns and you didn't actually live at that address. You specially said you use that address as a mailing address. Now you say you actually do live at that address when in Texas, so that's fine, but you can see from your quote in post #38 that I might have gotten the wrong idea.

I'll leave it at this: Everything Tom and I have posted is correct. We're not attacking you, we're simply trying to help you avoid breaking the law. We've both seen this kind of thing happen many times before. However, if you have no interest in avoiding committing a felony, or if you believe you have satisfied the residency requirements set forth in 27 CFR 478.11 and clarified in ATF Ruling 2010-6, feel free to ignore our posts.
 
Thanks for the post TheoHazard.

As I said, I am perfectly legal in Texas. The house is my house. I reside in my house at least 5 months of the year. I promise I am not ignoring your posts. I even thanked you for them twice.

Can we now move on?

Joe
 
No problem here either. I think you can see by my user name I have been a member since 2006, but only have 69 posts. I do not like confrontations and misunderstandings. I rarely start new threads and only reply to just a few things. Sometimes what I am thinking in my head doesn't get put on the screen by the keyboard. I leave things out unfortunately. I guess it comes with getting old. You will be there someday.

Joe
 
Any dealer in Nevada who sells and transfers a handgun (or any firearm other than a rifle or shotgun) to someone who is not a Nevada resident will lose his FFL pretty darn quick.
Click to expand...

DOGTOWN TOM. I was specifically talking about a shotgun and only meant to say that a CA resident would have no issues with CA law. As for NV law and what it requires of the dealer, I wouldn't know but that is not the buyer's problem, unless NV law provides that the buyer is in violation.

BigJimP. I think Tom is only trying to impress us with the fact that it is a Federal crime to misstate your place of residence on a 4473. I believe it is a felony punishable by 5 years imprisonment. While the likelihood of being prosecuted may be slim, stuff happens. I wondered why an ex-cop was prosecuted when he bought a gun for a relative. His crime was that he gave his name as the buyer when the actual buyer was the relative.

I found out that it was the reason he was an ex-cop. The guy had been a suspect in a bank robbery.

I think people usually get tripped up on the "little things" because someone rats them out; someone like a an ex-wife or a disgruntled co-worker. Unless they talk themselves into a prosecution.
 
You don't even have to own a home or lease an apartment. A homeless person on the streets of Los Angeles or New York is nevertheless a resident their respective states. The most important factor in determining residence, but ymmd depending on jurisdiction and the reason for which residency is an issue, is if you believe intend to reside in a particular state. Do you intend to return to that state whenever you are absent.
 
I still think many of you guys are beating this like a dead horse.../ although you mean well.

I think the key issue here ...is what does Iowa define as a "resident"... -- and I did not look it up so I don't know. The OP can look it up ...and see if he is in compliance or not --- but it makes no difference in terms of what the OP thinks he's doing there( he says he visiting and working a seasonal job there ) ...vs what the state defines as a resident.

I own a home in one state ( my drivers license is for that state, I pay taxes there, I register to vote there, etc..).... but there are 3 or 4 states where I visit for a few months at a time seasonally - in all of those 4 states, if I were to stay for 6 or 7 months in that state ( Arizona, Montana, Oregon, etc. - I would then be considered a resident of that state - which means I would need to give up my current drivers license, get a new drivers license, (give the state my new address - RV, rented condo, or whatever I was doing ), register my vehicle I have with me in that state, etc...

If you are working in a state - lets says I got a part time job at a resort of some type where I was staying - in some states, they define you as a resident right away when you go to work - and give you as little as 30 days for you to get a new drivers licenense, etc - although in some states there are exceptions for seasonal workers.

So by staying in Iowa for 7 months, and working --- he may in fact be an Iowa resident ( even though he might think he's still a TX resident )...and in fact he might have to get a new Iowa drivers license, switch your auto insurance to the new state, etc...whether he wants to or not ( and yes its a big hassle - so I don't stay in any of the states on my visits beyond a few months - and I don't work part time anywhere .../ or at home for that matter ...).

Do some people "visit" some states for more than 6 or 7 months --- and never switch their drivers license, address, re-register to vote, etc....sure, it happens all the time unless they get caught.
-------------
I don't know if the OP is a resident of TX or Iowa.. its up to what Iowa defines as a Resident. It doesn't make any difference what he thinks or what he wants.

But regardless...all he was asking is if he can buy a long gun in a state he's visiting ...yes, usually you can - but there are exceptions.
 
Do some people "visit" some states for more than 6 or 7 months --- and never switch their drivers license, address, re-register to vote, etc....sure, it happens all the time unless they get caught
Click to expand...

In FL, we call them "snowbirds" and they do not change DLs or similar. Now some have changed as they realize that FL has no state income tax compared to IL, MI IN, etc. so they wind up becoming "reverse snowbirds" when they go back north for the warmer months.
 
Sure, AZ is same way - but what is definition of a resident in FL ?? ( AZ is 7 months)...

In FL ...does it change if you work part time..??
 
BigJimP said:
I think the key issue here ...is what does Iowa define as a "resident"... -- and I did not look it up so I don't know. The OP can look it up ...and see if he is in compliance or not --- but it makes no difference in terms of what the OP thinks he's doing there( he says he visiting and working a seasonal job there ) ...vs what the state defines as a resident.
Click to expand...
No, this has absolutely nothing to do with what the state thinks. This whole discussion has been about federal law and the definition of residency when it comes to buying a firearm. The 4473 requires a specific and very simple definition of residency that I already linked to in post #42. And unless Iowa adds in their own more restrictive requirements when buying a firearm (and I don't think they do), this is the only definition that matters:

the ATF said:
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
Click to expand...
The OP rented out his house and now he makes a home in Iowa. That means he became a resident of Iowa the moment he crossed the Iowa border. And the moment he crosses back into Texas with the intention of living there, he will be a resident of Texas.

BigJimP said:
I don't know if the OP is a resident of TX or Iowa.. its up to what Iowa defines as a Resident. It doesn't make any difference what he thinks or what he wants.
Click to expand...
For the purpose of buying a firearm under federal law, he's a resident of Iowa when he resides in Iowa and he's a resident of Texas when he's in Texas.

This whole residency thing when buying a firearm confuses people to no end. But just remember, it has nothing to do with where you own property, it has nothing to do with where you pay taxes, it has nothing to do with where you're registered to vote; it's simply where you currently reside at this moment.

There are other definitions of residency that are for different purposes, but we're specifically talking about the residency requirements to buy a firearm under federal law.
 
Last edited:
Look at it this way. Under Federal law your state of residence is the one in which you are present with the intention of making a home in that state, even if you also intend to maintain homes in other states.
 
This brings up way to many question but here we go.

I don't know anything about the OP but what if you have a traveling circus or carnival that say spends 6 months traveling per year and you stop in an area for 3 days and then move on to the next. To make this more fun lets say you dance across borders. Like say you go around Lake Michigan say 3 days in Kalamazoo, Michigan, the next 3 days in Gary, Indiana, 3 more days in Des plains, Illinois, and 3 more days in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with a day off between each show. That's 2 weeks in 4 states. But the person lives in Texas, maintains a home in Texas, wishes they were in Texas, And will be returning to Texas as soon as possible?

What is this persons residence?

On another note Wisconsin wouldn't let me be a resident for 3 years even though I had a lease for a place, work Id's, resided there 7 days a week. It wasn't till I walked into the DMV with my federal tax documents that they said we SHOULD accept these to prove residency. Then someone finally pushed it through. At the time I was maintaining a mailbox in Michigan because they wouldn't let me in the first 6 trips to the DMV over 3 years.
 
I see the question coming down to, what does "intention of making a home in that state" mean. My son just went to Wyoming to work at a resort for 5 or 6 months. But as far as I know, he doesn't intend to make a home there. His home is still Georgia. He may be living, working, eating and sleeping there for 5 months, but with no intention of making a home there. So that makes him not a resident of Wyo. for ATF purposes, correct?

I think I understand the OP to be thinking the same way about his residency. So using his Texas ID and address, he would not be committing a felony because he does not intend to make a home in Iowa.
 
alfredr said:
So using his Texas ID and address, he would not be committing a felony because he does not intend to make a home in Iowa.
Click to expand...
He rented out his home in Texas and he is now living in an RV in Iowa. I'm no lawyer, but it seems pretty clear-cut that he's an Iowa resident. He sure isn't a Texas resident; he rented out his Texas home and he's not currently living there.
 
alfredr said:
My son just went to Wyoming to work at a resort for 5 or 6 months. But as far as I know, he doesn't intend to make a home there. His home is still Georgia. He may be living, working, eating and sleeping there for 5 months, but with no intention of making a home there. So that makes him not a resident of Wyo. for ATF purposes, correct?
Click to expand...
No, it sure looks to me like he's a resident of Wyoming. He's currently living in Wyoming. He's not currently living in Georgia. It seems to me like he'd have a real hard time convincing a court that he's currently living in Georgia since he's not.

In this case, "intent" doesn't mean "where do you feel your original home is", it means "where do you plan to live right now". Your son was a resident of Wyoming the moment he set foot in that state with the intent to live there.
 
This might help clarify the ATF's position on residency in multiple states:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...dOGDcNkx6yx4V7zXQ&sig2=JbC4YpislXTHeHneDcJIPw

the ATF said:
“State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.
Click to expand...
 
The ATF download example although it sounds dumb makes sense because they defined it and most college semesters are 16 weeks being just a bit over 3 months depending on vacations and ceremonies.

But it seems like they should really add a clause in there stating minimum time. But it's the ATF's rule so they can do what they want.

I bet there are tons of people that answer that question wrong and they don't know.
 
Holy wow is this confusing. And here's where I got it.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3): PROHIBITED TRANSPORTATION OR RECEIPT
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5): PROHIBITED TRANSFER BY NON-LICENSEE
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(9): PROHIBITED RECEIPT BY NON-RESIDENT
18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3): PROHIBITED TRANSFER BY LICENSEE
18 U.S.C. 922(t): REQUIREMENTS TO TRANSFER FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (STATE OF RESIDENCE)
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT)
27 CFR 478.124: FIREARMS TRANSACTION RECORD
For the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State. The intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
ATF Rul. 2010-6
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries seeking clarification as to whether, under Federal law, United States citizens who maintain residences in both a foreign country and a particular State may purchase firearms while in the State.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 922(a)(3) prohibits any person not licensed under the GCA (nonlicensees) from receiving any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside the State in which the person resides. Furthermore, section 922(a)(9) provides, in part, that it is unlawful for any unlicensed person who does not reside in any State to receive any firearm unless such receipt is for lawful sporting purposes. Pursuant to section 922(b)(3), the GCA also prohibits licensees from selling or delivering firearms to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located. Section 922(a)(5) extends the prohibition, with some limited exceptions, to any unlicensed person transferring a firearm to anyone who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the transferor’s State of residence.
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
- 2 -
State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land
within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However,
ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence
and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term
stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of
residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires
licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)
and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence
address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and
discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State.
Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required,
pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473,
which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the
transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.
The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document
made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political
subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular
individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of
individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document”
as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of
the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States
Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with
information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted
for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are
not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As
explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government
documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who
maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11
(definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two
States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State,
purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and
Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held
that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an offcampus
location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or offcampus
housing is located.
The same reasoning applies to citizens of the United States who reside temporarily outside
of the country for extended periods of time, but who also maintain residency in a particular
State. Where a citizen temporarily resides outside of the country, but also has the intention
of making a home in a particular State, the citizen is a resident of the State during the time
he or she actually resides in that State. In acquiring a firearm, the individual must
- 3 -
demonstrate to the transferor-licensee that he or she is a resident of the State by presenting valid identification documents.
Held, for the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.
Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
Date approved: November 10, 2010
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top