Pros and Cons for the 223 vs 308

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To me its kind of the reason most Tactical police units are going back to 45 calibers.
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But most tac units ARE NOT going to .45. The .45 is still fairly rare for tactical police units, which is why (in part) it gets lots of attention when one decides to go with it.
I personally saw a incident where a police officer shot a person 6 or 7 times with a 9 mm and local officer that still had a 357 magnum put the guy down with one shot.
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And there are numerous examples of BGs taking multiple CoM hits with .45 and still functioning. No handgun caliber can be considered a reliable stopper.
 
LAPD SWAT back to 45... FBI HRT 45... or so I have been told. Please dont confuse the issue of well placed shots... they should turn someone off rather quickly no matter what the caliber. It is all about mass... (I wish my physisist buddy was here to give me the right statement). The bigger bullet usually has better stopping effect... again my opinion... wish I had sopme hard data to back it up will try and find some and post it up
 
These two calibers are not replacement for each other. I would really retain both, but if I had to keep one it would be a 308 for its multi purpose usability.
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I've decided to add the 308 AR as an addition to my 223's. When I give it a serious personal whirl and if it can hang with my 223's all around, I may change.
 
LAPD SWAT back to 45... FBI HRT 45
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Sorry, but 2 units does no tmake a trend, particularly in light of the huge number of units that have not changed, and are getting by just fine with the 9s and 40s and other calibers they use.
It is all about mass
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No. Mass is only one part of it, certainly not all. Velocity plays a big role. Design is perhaps the biggest player these days.
 
ya know...

Yes I know I'm a noobie here,but has anyone in this thread mentioned the 6.5 Grendel?

I know that ammo is a bit scarce for it right now but the round was designed as a compromise between the 5.56 and the 7.62x51. It's still light, so you can carry a decent amount of ammo, but it has a lot more carry and punch at extended ranges.

Just throwing a thought out.
 
way of course

Hey Stryker
FbI Yes they did buy 45. Confirmed purchase of 500 1911 style 45 autos.
Weather or not they were issued I am unsure.
Hey anonomousone
there are two kinds of people 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 spc.
there can be only one.
and yes it has been mentioned.
The biggest self defense situation I foresee is a "Katrina" Type senario.
If you didn't live in the affected are you will not understand.
Either gun would suffice.
Most adversaries would be poorly trained and unexperianced.
Most situations with thugs end when fire is returned.
Most thugs are cowards that feel empowered by weapons
I recently witness three young men run from a parking lot after approach a suv with a gun. The driver pulled his own weapon and started shooting first.
The three ran so fast they ran toward and past two police. The police caught two of them and the third about 10 minutes later when he returned.
the third man did not even see the police(crowded situation).
Any one can pull a gun.
It take a man to stand and shoot back.
It takes a fool or a cop to run towards the shot(sometimes both).
 
Bcarver, I agree that most BG's would likely run as soon as shots are fired. What I am trying to prepare for is the BG who doesn't. Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages to both calibers. I'm looking for the one that offers the greatest advantage to dealing with the BG who won't quit in the scenarios I believe I may face.

If they run anything that goes boom will do.
 
I thought this was the "tactics & training" sub-forum and not the "gadgets & gear" sub-forum...

Have you considered spending the money you were going to blow on a new rifle and the assorted spare mags and ammo (because you were going to buy at least ten mags and a case or two of ammo, right?) and use it for an Urban Rifle course at TRO, instead?
 
Tamara,
Have you considered spending the money you were going to blow on a new rifle and the assorted spare mags and ammo (because you were going to buy at least ten mags and a case or two of ammo, right?) and use it for an Urban Rifle course at TRO, instead?
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Nope not now. I considered it years ago but I couldn't quite afford it. Back then I only had enough money to feed my ammunition habit with very little left over. That little bit went to videos and books. In that time however I have absorbed as much information on the tactical use of a rifle as possible including training with folks who have had the "formal" training. Now I don't think I would benefit enough to justify the costs in lost wages, travel expenses, and fee's. (please guys don't confuse my last statement with me thinking I know it all as has happened in other threads). A class will cost me over 2 grand easy. Based on what I've been told about the itinerary of some of these courses by friends......its mostly stuff I already do.

I thought this was the "tactics & training" sub-forum and not the "gadgets & gear" sub-forum...
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I apologize if I posted the thread in the wrong place.
 
I have to agree with Glenn...

Tamara,

I am but a young novice, and would not normally disagree in public with a moderator, but your recent statement is just ridiculous!

Have you considered spending the money you were going to blow on a new rifle and the assorted spare mags and ammo (because you were going to buy at least ten mags and a case or two of ammo, right?) and use it for an Urban Rifle course at TRO, instead?
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Training? DUH! that's what different guns and gear are for! who needs to know how to use a tool effectively when you can just own a bunch of them? I own at least 12 hammers, and I believe that makes me a master carpenter!

Now, before I get squished like a bug. I'm obviously being heavily sarcastic. Training by a qualified instructor where class size allows one on one interaction is amazingly effective / beneficial. Cost is a consideration which is why I have only been to one course. It taught basics and that is what I try to practice. BUT If I want to move beyond where I am, it is invaluable for a trained set of eyes (trained not only in the skill I am attempting to get better at, but also trained as a teacher) watch me and identify areas for improvement.

Now I don't think I would benefit enough to justify the costs in lost wages, travel expenses, and fee's.
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How much does that new rifle cost?
 
If we are going to do the great - I'm so special I don't need to train debate - I'm going to eat my lunch now.

Come back after the usual 20 posts arguing against training. :D
 
Hmmmmm.

Four pages. Probably should have shoved this over to the rifle forum awhile ago, but everyone was being courteous considering the contentious topic, and I hated to disrupt the conversation.

However, the original conversation appears to be over, for the most part -- and I'm with Glenn. I need to go eat my lunch and get a big bucket o' popcorn going if we're going to do the "do you need training?" discussion again. Which should probably be started in a separate thread, if it needs to be started at all.

Sooooo...

Shutting this one down. Thanks, everyone.

pax
 
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