Pros and Cons for the 223 vs 308

[Frankyoz]

6.8 SPC fills the gap nicely between the two. I was torn between the same dilema. This rounds fills both needs nicely and comes in the AR platform.

 

[threegun]

Creature,

Looks to me like you already had your mind made up...

With respect to getting an AR in 308 I have.............as long as reports come in that they are reliable, accurate, and durable. I am undecided on it becoming my go to rifle.......which is currently the AR in 223.

While I try to think of everything in advance it seems I always learn something from you guys.

 

[David Armstrong]

I've used a .308, I've used a .223. Based on that I chose a .223 as my main fighting rifle caliber, not a .308.

 

[threegun]

DA, Based on what?????? What made you choose the 223 over the 308?

 

[speakerguy79]

Yes they do, however; if you are in a SD situation there is no such thing as “overkill”.

My main thoughts were the significant velocity increase you can get with a .243. Factory ammo in some weights can run 3400fps+ in soft points, whereas .308 is more along the lines of 2800fps. I am thinking (in rifles to be specific) a lighter bullet at higher velocity would result in less penetration but a better permanent cavity in a human adversary?

Also 1/2 the recoil with the .243, but that's not got anything to do with wounding ability.

 

[threegun]

The 243 is a fine cartridge however I limited my choices to 223 and 308 because they both are more readily available. If it ever became necessary to buy ammo on the black market both the 223 and 308 would be much easier to find etc.

 

[edrice]

I disagree with everybody. For close quarters HD, neither the 308 nor 223 will beat the shotgun. Whatever happened to that concept? And if for some unlikely reason I had to engage in longer-distance, farther-outside-the-home defense, it would be the 223. If the threat was far enough away, the liklihood of shooting 308 is nil. I doubt you could call it "home" defense.

Norman Schwartzkof kept a shotgun propped against the wall next to his bunk during the Gulf War and he had could have anything he wanted. There's a lesson in that.

Ed

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Chalk me up as another Mohican. I love my FAL, but am realistic enough not to use it as a HD weapon, especially due to it's length and weight. Actually my HD weapon is generally a pistol, but in times of real trouble, I would go for my Colt Tactical Carbine.

 

[threegun]

Ed, I have shotguns. If I knew that precision wasn't going to be needed or that ranges wouldn't become extended I would grab the shotgun for sure. The rifle can do it all albeit not as good up close as the shotty.


BTW guys I'm not suggesting using the 308 for home defense.

 

[David Armstrong]

DA, Based on what?????? What made you choose the 223 over the 308?

Based on just general experience. If I'm having to hump gun and ammo, I prefer the lighter stuff. If I have to shoot a lot, I prefer the lighter rounds (ever tried firing 500 out of an M1 Garand at a rifle seminar? It ain't fun!). If I need to shoot somebody, the .223 gives me all the range I can effectively use or worry about. If I need to penetrate stuff I can switch to heavy .223 rounds designed for penetration for most needs. there's a reason why virtually every military of any note has changed ammo is going to lighter, smaller rounds for general purpose use and nobody is going up to the .308.

 

[chrisp0410]

How about a 6.5mm Grendel?

I saw someone mentioned the 6.8SPC already. Why not the 6.5mm Grendel? First, I am not going to debate the 6.8 vs the 6.5, I only wish to say that if you want an AR platformed weapon with more punch than a 5.56mm but with the same size factor, weight, controls, and close range capabilities, either of these mid-sized calibers would be an excellant choice.

My personal preference resides with the 6.5mm Grendel. I own a JP Enterprises CTR-02 in Grendel with a compensated 20" barrel. The rifle is the same size as any of the other AR's I ever owned but has sub-1/2 MOA with facotry 123 gr. Laupa HPs and delivers as much punch past 400 meters than the .308 does as the 6.5mm bullet has a much higher ballistic coefficient.

Check out the 65grendel.com/forum for yourself. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Chrisp0410

 

[Redneckrepairs]

I ranch , and i live in a small town . I use both calibers . My ( dreaded hb 16" ar ) is my vermin and home defense gun . It lives by the bed with a red dot , and occasionally goes out to show the " city folk " how to estimate range with another scope . I also have a couple of .308 rifles among the herd , and right now a savage scout is my " pickup gun " . its light , fast , and the 110 hps i shoot will turn a coyote off right now . I also have a FAL stoked with mil spec 7.62 and a pack of 6 mags because after all i do live in the great wide open .
I really dont understand your question because you did not give details . I will say tho that i have the fal , i have the bolt in .308 , and still the AR in .223 or if you say it that way 5.56 is my bedside gun . Wanna defend your home well get an ar and just shoot em down ( you gots lots of ammo in a mag ) . Wanna defend terrain , well get a good rifle ( bar is too expensive ) , set it on a bipod and make the most of the iron sights . A talented fella could do it with a bolt , but i am not that talented , and besides you gotta move every couple of rounds lol .

So again , just what are your aims , and just what are you defending ? If your serious about SHTF then get a good .22 lr rifle and a couple of bricks of ammo . That will pay you better on both poundage and utility than any centerfire .

 

[threegun]

DA,

there's a reason why virtually every military of any note has changed ammo is going to lighter, smaller rounds for general purpose use and nobody is going up to the .308.

Comparing military needs to civilians needs isn't realistic. The odds of me ever needing 300 plus rounds of rifle ammo is remote to say the least.

All the other stuff you listed were high on my list and the reason the 223 was my choice for so many years. Things are changing now however. I'm not as mobile as a decade ago despite switching to the lightest rifle out there and removing some of my load weight.

As I try to imagine what types of threats I may face, threats like riots, looters (live in hurricane Florida), and gang attacks (gang activity increasing daily in my area), a few things keep popping up. I'm not going to need 300 plus rounds of ammo and I might need to penetrate vehicles and/or building material to eliminate a threat that has taken cover.

If the 308 AR doesn't buck as much as an M1A1 or your M1 Garand I'm thinking that it might fit my needs better. Follow ups won't be as fast and ammo levels as high but hits would be more effective and cover less protective.

 

[threegun]

Redneck,

So again , just what are your aims , and just what are you defending ? If your serious about SHTF then get a good .22 lr rifle and a couple of bricks of ammo . That will pay you better on both poundage and utility than any centerfire .

In my survival plans the 22lr plays a major role. For riots and such I want more power and centerfire reliability.

 

[jmorris]

I disagree with everybody. For close quarters HD, neither the 308 nor 223 will beat the shotgun. Whatever happened to that concept?

Not everybody, post #20

If you are worried about over penetration the shotgun can’t be beat and at CQB ranges it is much more devastating shot for shot, if loaded correctly.

If the threat was far enough away, the liklihood of shooting 308 is nil. I doubt you could call it "home" defense.[/

The op never stated "home" defense and never answered the questions in post #2 go all you are playing is a guessing game. The answer is; there is no "right" answer, without more info.

 

[threegun]

What are you defending yourself against? How Many? Where at? For how long? At what range?

The op never stated "home" defense and never answered the questions in post #2 go all you are playing is a guessing game. The answer is; there is no "right" answer, without more info.

Jmorris, I apologize for not answering your question directly. I didn't even see it for some reason. I did answer the question though in a few posts.

If the poop ever hits the fan via riot or other civil unrest I don't see myself being as mobile as when I was younger.

As I try to imagine what types of threats I may face, threats like riots, looters (live in hurricane Florida), and gang attacks (gang activity increasing daily in my area), a few things keep popping up.

For riots and such I want more power and centerfire reliability.

These (how many, how far, how long) are unknown beforehand. I do expect a city type environment with vehicles and building/homes etc. I also expect that it would come during a riot or other civil unrest situation or possibly a gang thing. Home defense will be a handgun or shotgun or AR in 223 thing.

 

[David Armstrong]

Comparing military needs to civilians needs isn't realistic.

It has nothing to do with comparing needs. It has everything to do with efectiveness of the weapon. Militaries would not be moving from the .308 to the .223 (or similar moves) if it gave up much in the area of practical effectiveness.

 

[threegun]

Militaries would not be moving from the .308 to the .223 (or similar moves) if it gave up much in the area of practical effectiveness.

It certainly has given up some effectiveness in exchange for increased firepower. I don't even think military brass will argue that they are sacrificing caliber effectiveness for firepower even thought the net effectiveness may remain the same or increase under military style maneuvers due to the increased firepower. For someone unlikely to face a large group of attackers, like me, the trade off is less appealing. Especially in the urban environment were cover is everywhere.

One thing is certain if all these militaries could find a way to eliminate the difference in the volume of ammo each soldier could carry the 223 would find itself in trouble. With its only advantage then being controllability.

I own several AR's in 223. I love them dearly. I just think that I may have prioritized the wrong areas. I can picture rioters shooting from behind vehicles or other urban cover. Areas better suited for a hit from a heavier caliber. I can't imagine being bum rushed by 5 guys heck bent on getting me...........a scenario that favors the 223 and its lighting fast followups. If I am bum rushed by 5 guys the 308 can get it done albeit slower. I question whether the same can be said of the 223 trying to penetrate urban cover.

Thats my conundrum.

 

[David Armstrong]

It certainly has given up some effectiveness in exchange for increased firepower.

No, it hasn't. That was the impetus for the move to smaller calibers. Within expected fighting distances there was/is no loss of effectiveness.

One thing is certain if all these militaries could find a way to eliminate the difference in the volume of ammo each soldier could carry the 223 would find itself in trouble. With its only advantage then being controllability.

IFAIK, such a claim has nothing behind it to support such a position.

Especially in the urban environment were cover is everywhere.

The .223 will do just fine in the typical urban environment. If heavy cover is a worry that is probably more of a bullet selection issue than a caliber issue.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

With its only advantage then being controllability.

That would also be in question, then. For instance, my FAL has far less recoil than my AR. OF course it is a heavy barrel model. Just the same, I'd like to try out one of those shorty Para FALs to check the recoil against an AR. The gas system, when adjusted properly, turns my personal FAL into .22LR, as far as recoil.