Pros and Cons for the 223 vs 308

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I just had a customer call about the 6.8 DPMS rifle..........I don't want to know anything except the price LOL. I'm thinking 243 also.

You can't change to bigger as you all but talked me out of it LOL.
 
Ignore me? You posted in several threads I started. Seems you try very hard not to ignore me. It is for the best though.

Your ignoring me had nothing to do with a moderator warning right LOL? Seems our constant bickering was getting noticed.

You saved me the trouble thanks and good bye.

To the mods..........Thank you. As you know I didn't want to resort to the ignore list but it was for the best. Thanks for the heads up.
 
I never really figured why the military got rid of .308. You can have double the bullet weight of a 223, a 308 caliber hole, and, a bullet going near 3100-3200 fps, or a 110 grain bullet at 3350 fps. I think those old remington Sabot rounds in .223, using a 30-06 sabot went over 4000 fps.

Anyway, finding a small, handy, .308 rifle is the problem I have. I can't find one in Kali, they are all pretty much illegal, so, I use a Mosin Nagant 44, with 7.62 x 54 R, that runs near 30-06 ballistics, but, at lower pressures...Plus, I get a bayonet, and, they are WAY cheaper...;)
 
I never really figured why the military got rid of .308.
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Basically they found, as have most others, that they can get the desired results with a better package. Less expenditure of resources, lower cost, easier to use, etc.
 
Basically they found, as have most others, that they can get the desired results with a better package. Less expenditure of resources, lower cost, easier to use, etc.
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And some in the military will argue that all this was achieved at the cost of GI lives with the less effective caliber. Right or wrong the 5.56mm is less effective than the 7.62x51 at stopping the enemy.
 
.223 or .308

For quite some time, I had .308 and its equivalent [semi and bolt action], but no .223 rifles. While in the military, I did not care for the M-16, although I qualified expert and was diligent in the cleaning of my weapon. At a gun show in Richmond, I picked up a Bushmaster M17S bullpup at a really good cost (450 dollars - Spring '07). From there I bought a second M17S, an XM15-E2S, a Golani Sporter, a Daewoo AR-100, and a Mini-14 in bullpup configuration. Sprinkle in some other calibre purchases among the above listed. Of late I fire the XM15-E2S more than any other firearm. So much for not caring for the .223 round. If things were to get out of hand (yes, it could happen in America), I would grab my .45 pistol and the Daewoo. I would grab these two because they provide me with the greatest confidence to meet a civil threat. It comes down to your familiarity with the tool (in this case a weapon) and the confidence it gives you to use it (hopefully that day will never come). And be sure to practice [handling, loading, shooting and cleaning] otherwise on that day you will probably shoot a friend or yourself.
Stephen mentioned that we must sound like some really paranoid people to visitors on this forum (especially to the non-gun-wielding set). True, but this is our turf (as they have theirs), and the proper place to discuss such matters in an intelligent manner. I am sure Stephen did not mean any insult, but is concerned with our public image. At times we do needlessly hurt that image.

cheers,
JKHolman
 
The .308 is a great deer gun, and even a good gun for black bear. Humans though are wimpy after being shot. Bears will attack and try to eat you, where humans just fall down. In most cases, .308 is overkill. In a sniper situation where you need to shut down a hostage taker with one shot, the .308 is extremely accurate, bucks the wind and will go where you put it. .308 is an excellent sniper rifle caliber and wins hands down over the .223. For the average shoot 'em up and knock 'em down, the .223 is a great platform with it's fast flying, trauma creating bullet. You can also carry more ammo with the .223 as it's lighter. For those who are recoil sensitive, the .223 wins hands down.
I prefer the lack of recoil of the .223 rifles. No flinch means increased accuracy. I think I've fired 100,000 rounds thru AR-15's and M-16's. The .308 kicked more than I liked and was alot heavier. The .223 also does extreme trauma to an intended target, incapacatating the receiver of the .223 round. I would definitely take the .223.
Ohio Rusty ><>
 
I never really figured why the military got rid of .308.
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The US military got rid of 308/7.62 NATO rifles for the same reason the combloc got rid of 7.62x54R, because they wanted an assault rifle. Fullpower rifle rounds don't lend themselves to full/burst fire in anything lighter than a BAR or RPK. 5.56/5.45 rounds were chosen (eventually chosen in the case of the 5.45) for lightweight, low recoil, and flat trajectories.

BTW, shooting through heavy cover isn't the job of a battle rifle whether bolt or semi. It is the job of a light, medium or heavy machine gun. Semi auto rife through a block wall or thick wood is not effective. Think your going to punch through medium cover (actually concealment as someone else said)? Not gonna happen. You probably don't even know what part of the wall or whatever the person is behind.

As for civilians, a 308 makes more sense because you aren't carrying a full battle load and aren't likely to have a full auto weapon. The biggest advantage of a 5.56 (or 5.45) weapon for a civilian is the lightweight of the system. For me, another important consideration is familiarity. I've shot almost everything and carried several different rifles, but an AR just feels right in my hands. Lightweight and accuracy are always an advantage. And I have a supply of 5.56 ammo, so my choice is easy.

I simply don't feel there is any chance I'll ever need a rifle for the long range shots some guys hypothesize needing. If I did somehow think I needed a long range rifle, it wouldn't be a semi. That doesn't mean that I think 308 is a bad choice. It's obviously an excellent round available in some excellent battle proven platforms.
 
It comes down to your familiarity with the tool (in this case a weapon) and the confidence it gives you to use it (hopefully that day will never come).
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Exactly. Too many get wrapped up in trying to purchase a haradware solution to what is really a softwareproblem. If people would get proper, effective training (which can't be done by reading a book, watching a video, etc.) they would figure that out. I think it should almost be a mandate that a person can only buy 1 pistol and 1 rifle before getting training. It would cut down a lot on these silly "which is better" kind of threads. :D
 
223

i have most of the calibers stated so it doesnt matter to me. will pick up which one is handy and go from there
 
U guys r lucky to have any caliber u want, even a .50. Here in Pakistan, we, the civilians, r not allowed anything bigger than .22 when it comes to rifles. Anything above it even a .222 is considered a Prohibited bore. Ofcourse anything is possible here in Pk but u have to be big, really big for that. :)
 
threegun (or should I say Walter Smitty),

If you want to buy a friggin .308 in an AR type platform, just do it. Stop making up ridiculous scenarios to justify your purchase.

You live in Tampa (in an urban setting from your posts) for crying out loud. What are the chances you will really NEED a .308 to defend yourself? You are talking about shooting through cover and what not.

For your threats, you mentioned riots, looters, and gang attacks. When is the last time Tampa had a riot? Do you actually live close to the bad parts of town where riots typically occur? If so, saving your money and moving to a better area would be a much better option. As for the looters, are you really that much of a target? Looting normally occurs in grocery stores where people need essentials and then moves to non-essesntials when civil unrest sets in. I went through hurrican Andrew and I helped out during the recover efforts. I saw all that stuff first hand. Looters rarely go into residential neighrborhoods since that is not where the goods are concentrated. As for your gang attack scenario, have you done something to **** off some gang members? Are you the leader of a rival gang? What do you think your actual chances of being target by a gang attack are?

Like I said, buy whatever the heck you want to buy but don't make up ridiculous scenarios for it. If some antis stumbled across they post, it would read like most people here are gun nuts hell bent on shooting people. There is a difference between self defense and murder. Some of your scenarios blur the lines quite a bit.
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Stephen, Missed your post sorry. I googled walter smitty thinking that you were poking at me.....but no I don't have alternate names........if the name was a sarcastic comparison to another.....please explain.

To answer some of your questions there have been 2 riots which were very close to home. In 1989 residents of College Hill projects rioted. I was dispatched to protect my grandparents and their printing business (same location). In 1996 St Petersburg was the scene of a riot after a white police officer shot and killed a black thug.

The mixture of minorities in low income housing seems to offer the greatest danger of riots in my area and as history has shown things can happen overnight.

My community is good. However recent changes in public housing have brought riffraff to my neighborhood in the form of government subsidized rent in a couple of apartment complexes in my area. Gangs and the threat of riot are very possible concerns.

Hillsborough county Sheriff David Gee just posted numbers about gang membership in Florida. At around 67,000 and growing every day. They plan a 7 month push to interrupt them but gangs have been growing despite the valiant efforts of LE.

Now that I have answered your questions please ignore my future posts if you are going to attack instead of contributing. My thread is title pros and cons of the 223 vs 308. If you feel it or my scenarios are silly ignore them. I was looking for educated guidance not approval.

There is a difference between self defense and murder. Some of your scenarios blur the lines quite a bit.
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Shooting someone who is using cover while trying to kill me is hardly murder.
 
Exactly. Too many get wrapped up in trying to purchase a haradware solution to what is really a softwareproblem.
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And you insist this to be my case without having a clue as to what I can or can't do with my rifle. You assume that I'm searching for a rifle to make up for my lack of ability, yet another guess.
 
First of all I would like to say that some of the reasons the 6.8 round was developed was because of the lack of effectiveness of the .223/5.56 in certain cases. There are units currently in Iraq that are trying to get their hands on M14's because of there effectiveness. Some of the BG's are taking multiple rounds of 5.56 and are still fighting back. yes they may not be 100% combat effective at that point but they are still in the fight. I currently own a FAL 16 inch barrel. I have a load bearing vest loaded with 6 20 round magazines and one in the case for the weapon. so 140 rounds of 308 that can be fired realatively quickly. To me its kind of the reason most Tactical police units are going back to 45 calibers. Knock Down. 9mm just doesnt cut it. I personally saw a incident where a police officer shot a person 6 or 7 times with a 9 mm and local officer that still had a 357 magnum put the guy down with one shot. If the crap hits the proverbial fan well you better have a small stock pile of whatever you use.
 
it depnds

Well I have both calibers in M4A1 (5.56X45) and G3A3 (7.62X51).

They are both useful with unique benefits that are partial to given situation. If your combat zone is mostly within 200 yards then there is really no need for a 308 Win. However, if you are fighting off enemy beyond that rand a 223 Rem. could come up short depending on what you are hitting at.

These two calibers are not replacement for each other. I would really retain both, but if I had to keep one it would be a 308 for its multi purpose usability.
 
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