pro-gun liberalism

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Now why am I a Christian again????

Oh thats right...
You cannot reason with anyone that follows a religion that turns all evidence contrary to their beliefs into "tests of faith" and who believe that their all powerful and loving god allows children to die as a "test of faith."

They have had the idea drilled into them their whole lives that everything in the world that contradicts their belief is supposed to be there to test their belief in God and that it is all false information.
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Thanks PBP for summing up religion for me...:barf:
 
I would love to see a cogent cost-benefit analysis of why homosexual relationships have less value to society than heterosexual relationships. The usual explanation involves breeding but avoids discussing the costs to society for the development of children.
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I don't know what the costs per child are but the only other option is immigration. I also reject the implication that offspring cost more than they're worth on a number of levels but even financially it isn't true unless that particular child doesn't work.
You cannot reason with anyone that follows a religion that turns all evidence contrary to their beliefs into "tests of faith" and who believe that their all powerful and loving god allows children to die as a "test of faith."

They have had the idea drilled into them their whole lives that everything in the world that contradicts their belief is supposed to be there to test their belief in God and that it is all false information.
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If that's your view of religious people you have a rather skewed impression. But I have seen equal devotion on the secular side as well, so throwing out extremes serves no purpose.
 
If that's your view of religious people you have a rather skewed impression. But I have seen equal devotion on the secular side as well, so throwing out extremes serves no purpose.
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Unfortunately I see examples of it daily.
 
I don't know what the costs per child are but the only other option is immigration.
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Over a third of births in the US are to unmarried women, which blows a big hole in the procreation justification for discriminating between heterosexual and homosexual marriage.

For the record, I do not think government should be in the marriage business at all - marriage is in the territory of religion. Government does, however, have an interest in economic or financial relationships between individuals.
 
How about we give our kids the information on all aspects of the "THEORIES" because that is what they are and let them decide. Just because we can prove adaptation and limited forms of, do I dare say the word, evolution does not mean that that is the reason for our existence today. Before one can rant about the ways things came about, you should really understand that it is still a theory
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I couldn't agree more, let’s teach the controversy!

I want my kids to learn about The Flying Spaghetti Monster and his noodley goodness.:rolleyes:

For those of you who haven't been proselytized by a Pastafarian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

You just have to have faith.
 
I think that people's perceptions of guns are largely driven by how they are exposed to guns. I suspect that people in large cities have less positive exposure to guns and fewer opportunities to personally use guns than their rural cousins
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agreed, 2nd ammendment issue are more a matter of rural vs urban more then democrat - republican, liberal vs conservative

most people who live in urban areas have never been around firearms and only associate them with violence due to the media

People from rural areas also have to be more self reliant then urban dwellers, in fact is almost impossible for some urban dwellers to be self reliant in some reguards in urban areas.

My brother has to take public transportation to get to work, driving is almost impossible in downtown Chicago.
 
Now why am I a Christian again????
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Prob because you spend too much time either reading fictional work, such as the Bible or fluffy, feel-good nonsense like C.S. Lewis, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren and friends; rather than reading books based on evidence. :D

I'd recommend Richard Dawkins or Carl Sagan if you really want to test your faith. It takes truely blind faith to stand in the face of overwhelming objective, peer-reviewed evidence and still proclaim your alligence to it.
 
Oh, boy, turn this into a religion vs. secular argument and, well... IBTL. :p

As for the topic at hand, the major parties really don't represent a wide range of opinions. Where do they substantively differ? Abortion, gay marriage, flag burning, things like that... which, to the conservatives, are "moral issues" but are really "civil rights issues" as far as I'm concerned. But the differences are smaller when it comes to the larger issues like basic economic or foreign policy.

I'm liberal on economic issues -- mostly due to environmentalism, and a strong opinion that corporations should not have the same rights as people, and corporate influence in politics should be illegal -- but I'm libertarian when it comes to social issues, i.e. anti-authoritarian. Unfortunately, both parties are strongly authoritarian. My political attitudes, more often than not, align with the Democratic party... though obviously gun control is a major exception to that, and the intrusive policies of the ultra-liberal democrats obviously offend any social libertarian. I was registered independent until GWB pushed me into the arms of the opposition; I will likely change back to an independent though.

When it comes to the election, I may vote Obama, or I may write in Ron Paul. Not that I really agree with either over the full spectrum of issues, but... what's a guy to do? There aren't any candidates that I agree with on both social and economic issues. Obama wants my guns, and he wants to increase spending in our already-bloated federal budget. Ron Paul doesn't have a chance (which works in his favor, as far as I'm concerned) and he's great from a libertarian standpoint, but his environmental and corporate policies would be a disaster, and his ideas for foreign policy appear naive. :rolleyes:

On occasion I've told friends that what I'd really like to see is a Green party majority in Congress, and a Libertarian president. It would represent my interests on both sides, yet the complete and utter gridlock would prevent the government from accomplishing anything (which, given the last decade or two, sounds appealing).
 
hey now, the Chronicles of Narnia is a damn fine story

Dawkins is a prick and as bad as any bible thumper.

Sagan, on the other hand, was a brilliant, brilliant man and had the right idea.
 
hey now, the Chronicles of Narnia is a damn fine story
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True, but Mere Christianity kinda ruined his winning streak. I don't know if you've read it but it's pretty weak

Dawkins is a prick and as bad as any bible thumper.
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I'm still try to figure that one out.:confused: You must not of actually read his books or seen what he has put out. The guy holds people to evidence and calls them on their non-sense. What's wrong with that? Sagan is just as much Atheist as Dawkins.
 
Over a third of births in the US are to unmarried women, which blows a big hole in the procreation justification for discriminating between heterosexual and homosexual marriage.
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I see. So, percentage wise, gays procreate within marriage much more often? Again, maybe it's because liberals see everything as coming down from government, I don't know, but "government" (all the states involved) are doing the will of the people. Your beef is with them. Maybe if you aimed for the target you guys would have better success?
True, but Mere Christianity kinda ruined his winning streak. I don't know if you've read it but it's pretty weak
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So exegesis and book reviews are another hobby of yours?

http://www.buy.com/prod/mere-christianity/q/loc/106/30664699.html
Mere Christianity is the most popular of C. S. Lewis's works of non-fiction, with several million copies sold worldwide.
 
So exegesis and book reviews are another hobby of yours?
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Actually it is. I enjoy reading contrary opinions to my own, since it challanges my own beliefs. You should try it some time (don't worry it won't make you gay or anything).

I also read the Bible which was great for renewing my faith in Atheism. :D

Mere Christianity is the most popular of C. S. Lewis's works of non-fiction, with several million copies sold worldwide
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Yes, and "Being a Better You" by Joel Osteen is also the #1 Bestseller in the place that re-elected G.W. So I don't know the intrensic value of a book being a best seller.
 
Actually it is. I enjoy reading contrary opinions to my own, since it challanges my own beliefs. You should try it some time (don't worry it won't make you gay or anything).
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You seem rather threatened for a guy that likes his beliefs challenged.
Yes, and "Being a Better You" by Joel Osteen is also the #1 Bestseller in the place that re-elected G.W. So I don't know the intrensic value of a book being a best seller.
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It means that many copies were sold, probably not by accident.
 
Let me go ahead and turn this thread around from the highway to lockedthreadedness. This thread is talking about me. I am a pro gun liberal. That right I'm a liberal *hears gun slides racking*. I support Hillary Clinton *sees red dots on my shirt* and I support the second amendment. I know that with Hillary there is an 85% chance we will get another AWB. I'm OK with that, I know what to expect from her and I will gladly exchange 8 years of AWB for Universal Healthcare, regaining Americas standing in the world and balancing the budget again.

But then again, it's not like these past 8 years of George "Jurys still out on that one" Bush have been a heaven on earth for gun rights. They just let the AWB expire. That's it. With Obama I'm not sure. His statement of banning concealed carry made me shiver. I just don't know about him.
 
I also read the Bible which was great for renewing my faith in Atheism.
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Sarcasm my friend. Sarcasm. I assure you I have a complete and total lack of faith in anything and try to base all my views around evidence and reason.

No I certainly can't absolutely prove that there is no God, nor can you disprove Russell’s Celestial Teapot or the FSM. However we can ask ourselves if these belief’s make sense, in light of advances in technology and science.

Using Science and evidence we can explain things without a God, including the origins of the universe and life. Thus using Occam's razor, any theory coming along and adding an all powerful, all knowing God into it certainly creates more problems than it solves.
 
most people who live in urban areas have never been around firearms and only associate them with violence due to the media
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It's not just because of the media. Depending what kind of neighborhood you live or work in, guns can quite reasonably be associated with violence. It only takes hearing a few gunshots outside at night or knowing a few people whose workplaces were robbed at gunpoint to put that idea into your head. And it's not like a lot of city dwellers (well, depends on the city perhaps) go out hunting...and even if they do, that doesn't mean they can't still associate handguns with crime and violence.

For the reasons above I grew up at best neutral on guns and at worst downright hostile towards them. It wasn't until I got some real positive personal exposure to them (thanks to the military) that my attitudes changed.

I'd say at least some of the correlation between "conservative" views and pro-gun stances is where the two tend to spring from; largely older generations and rural folks. The former grew up in a time where guns didn't have such a bad name, and the latter are going to get a lot more positive exposure due to where they're from. And both are more likely to be conservative for other reasons entirely. But what this means is that, again, is that a majority of vocal pro-gunners being more "conservative" is a correlation largely by chance; the two aren't necessarily directly linked.

I've heard a lot of arguments as to why most pro-gun folks are conservative (or vice versa), many even implying that a liberal can't possibly be pro-gun (you must instead be "conflicted" somehow, and either aren't liberal or aren't truly pro-gun)...and most of them fall entirely flat. I'd say it's largely by chance, and furthered by the fact that the two primary political parties here (who tend to drive the issues) have chosen opposing sides. Other than that, I'd say we have plenty of guys here (myself included) who only agree with a majority of posters here in maybe a couple issues...or even just guns.



And FFS can we cut the theological debate? I don't enjoy Christian vs. Athiest wankery on forums where it doesn't get threads locked and where a broader spectrum (and more even spectrum) of views are represented...I don't think it'll be particularly rewarding or enriching here.
 
JaserST4
Again, maybe it's because liberals see everything as coming down from government
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Is that why you are so insistent about government control of marriage? Why not focus on where you don't want government control - like guns.

Tibu
I will gladly exchange 8 years of AWB for Universal Healthcare, regaining Americas standing in the world and balancing the budget again.
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What if you get the AWB and not the other three?
 
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