Private Gun sales-- Warning!

[Frank Ettin]

"I will need to see a Driver's License or something just to make sure you're an Ohio resident..."

A stolen/fake Ohio I.D.?
A copy of a water bill?
A note from his mother?....

The federal crime (a violation of 18 USC 922(a)(5)) is to transfer a gun to someone you know or have reasonable cause to believe is not a resident of your State. If you've taken reasonable steps to verify that the transferee is a resident of your State, and there are no circumstances which should give you cause to doubt your verification, you should be in the clear under federal law -- even if his verifying material later turns out to have been fraudulent. Documenting what you did to verify that is corroborating evidence.

 

[Sevens]

Is it relevant that we are talking about something that I do often and many dozens of times, and 100% within the law while you continue to pontificate on something that you cannot legally do, seemingly for the rest of your life, unless you move?

Ammo: Federally and State regulated
Ammo: used often in liquor store heists
Ammo: a pile of money, more than a base model Kahr, if the pile is large enough

Writing a BOS for ammo also?
Knives fit these conditions also.

I'll stick with liberty and privacy. And if I need a lawyer, he'll be legal to practice where it matters to me-- Ohio. Not unsolicited on an internet discussion.

 

[FITASC]

Quote:
but you are NOT writing that number down and having my address and whatever else at your disposal.
If you ever want to buy a gun FTF from me, yes I will. My gun, my terms. Your money, you're free to take your business elsewhere.

And I will

And that's a fine example of two parties making their respective decisions regarding the terms upon which each will do business. Each has decided for himself the risk and inconvenience associated with the contemplated transaction and each has decided his tolerance for risk and inconvenience.

In this case, it's not a match, so they wouldn't do the deal.

Exactly............

 

[Frank Ettin]

Is it relevant that we are talking about something that I do often and many dozens of times,....

No, it is not relevant at all. We're discussing good business practices. The utility of documentation doesn't matter whether one is selling a gun or a painting or is negotiating a commercial lease.

..I'll stick with liberty and privacy....

As I've said, you're welcome to be guided by your values and ideology, but those things are of no legal significance. The choices you have made have nothing to do with the legal bases for sound business practices. You choose your methods to suit your tastes in such things, not because they are good choices from a legal perspective.

...And if I need a lawyer, he'll be legal to practice where it matters to me-- Ohio....

These are general considerations not dependent on where one might be doing business.

...Not unsolicited on an internet discussion.

If you're tired of my comments, you can simply stop inviting them by discontinuing the posting of your unhelpful comments in this thread.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This sort of thing would be a completely ludicrous discussion for bush trimming shears or a long handled axe sold at a garage sale, but it seems perfectly acceptable when discussing *gasp* handguns. Perhaps this is a west coast thought process.

But bush trimming shears and long-handled axes generally don't have serial numbers and a paper trail that can lead the police and/or the BATFE to your doorstep if that implement is used in a crime several years after you legally sold it to sumdude who answered your ad on Craigslist. Guns do. If it's a gun that you originally bought "off paper," then you perhaps have little to be concerned about if you sell it off paper. If you bought it new from an FFL, complete with 4473, and you then sell it off paper, the official paper trail ends at your door.

 

[Sevens]

No, I'll hang around to point out that you've overvalued the significance of this BOS, you've greatly overvalued your own qualifications as a dispenser of advice and it was also you that directly questioned why "we" should listen to what I have to say... in the discussion that I opened.

Reading over the pro side of the BOS makes it sound like a quality defense attorney might benefit greatly by printing up unwitnessed, non-notarized general BOS "documents" (to use the term loosely) as an impenetrable defense for his clients.

 

[osbornk]

If you want to LOOK at my license to make sure I am from the same state - fine - but you are NOT writing that number down and having my address and whatever else at your disposal.

I would have no problem if you insisted on that because I would never sell you a gun at any price. I would suspect you are hiding something from me or you plan on using the gun in a way that is not legal.

 

[Sevens]

You could also certainly argue sound legal practices that include documenting absolutely every one-hour block of your life, REAL documents, witnessed, notarized, in a standard and recognized form or format and any lawyer could/would argue that these too would be quite valuable in a personal defense against accusal from a liquor store hold-up.

Is this necessary, and thus good advice, and "good legal practice" ? I would suggest that it isn't. And the fact that some bad people do bad things with firearms (and gas cans and ball bats) simply don't make me wish to do nonsense that threatens my privacy and offer some level of hopeful "protection."

 

[Frank Ettin]

No, I'll hang around to point out that you've overvalued the significance of this BOS, you've greatly overvalued your own qualifications as a dispenser of advice.....

You're of course welcome to express your uneducated opinion I've overvalued documentation. You have no bases for such opinions, of course, but you're still entitled to have and express them.

....you've greatly overvalued your own qualifications as a dispenser of advice....

Perhaps not, considering that I've done this sort of thing for a living, in the real world, helping real people for real stakes.

You could also certainly argue sound legal practices that include documenting absolutely every one-hour block of your life, REAL documents, witnessed, notarized, in a standard and recognized form or format and any lawyer could/would argue that these too would be quite valuable in a personal defense against accusal from a liquor store hold-up....

Now you're just being silly. No one has said anything like that.

The reality is that I've successfully used various types of documentation, including memoranda of transactions, notes and letters confirming conversations or describing events that just took place, emails, notes placed in files, notes taken during telephone conversations, etc., all to help someone convince someone else what happened. That's the sort of thing that lawyers do all the time. It's pretty much routine when we have the documentation to work with.

More formal documents also have their place and can be useful, and there are times that formality is a necessity, e. g, a power of attorney authorizing an agent to act for you in connection with a real property matter must be notarized. But less formal documentation has also been useful; and I know this because I have used it to serve the interests of clients.

....Is this necessary, and thus good advice, and "good legal practice" ? I would suggest that it isn't....

How nice for you. But in reality you have no business making that sort of suggestion and potentially leading people astray. You are simply not professionally qualified to make that sort of suggestion (anymore than I would be qualified to diagnose someone's back pain).

It's one thing to make a personal choice for yourself based on your values. It's another to make suggestions regarding the possible legal significance or consequences of various choices when you lack the appropriate professional qualifications.

....the fact that some bad people do bad things with firearms (and gas cans and ball bats) simply don't make me wish to do nonsense that threatens my privacy and offer some level of hopeful "protection."

That's fine, and that's your choice. But it's still a choice you make for reasons of personal taste or ideology, not because it's good business practice.

 

[buck460XVR]

In any case, know your state laws and if it smells rotten, it's probably rotten.

Pretty much sums it up. Doesn't really matter who the person in the OP was that was inquiring about the firearm as long as the seller followed the letter of the law. Whether it was a criminal or ol' Bloomberg himself. Do things legally and you don;t have a worry......period. How many of us have sold a used car FTF and had the buyer ask us to claim a lower sale price in order to save on sales tax? Sounds innocent enough, eh? Good fiend of mine that is a LEO says they follow Armslist, Craigslist and the local buy sell ads because that is where many stolen property items show up for sale. Cops run stings all the time for buying/selling dope, sex and stolen property, and rely on greed for folks to be seduced. Seems guns would be no different.

 

[Don P]

Pretty much since the beginning of time. Opinions that can't be supported are not, and never have been, worth much.

What use is an opinion that can't be supported? There's already more than enough bad information floating around in cyberspace.

I concur Frank. With the situation that I was involved in from my previous posts I'm glad I had a bill of sale for the gun sold and then used out of state in a armed robbery. Turned out good for me and I have no idea how it would have gone without the bill of sale and have no desire to test the system in that way. Frank, is it looked at getting the info on the bill of sale as, what a reasonable,prudent person would do in that situation? If something goes down after the fact?

 

[FITASC]

Quote:
If you want to LOOK at my license to make sure I am from the same state - fine - but you are NOT writing that number down and having my address and whatever else at your disposal.
I would have no problem if you insisted on that because I would never sell you a gun at any price. I would suspect you are hiding something from me or you plan on using the gun in a way that is not legal.

Or I prefer to keep my identity intact and not have it stolen. Do you do all that when you sell a hunting knife or something else that can be used as a weapon or for an illegal purpose?

 

[IrishGuy824]

]IrishGuy, are you going to have it witnessed? Notarized?

Don't you think your normal lifestyle and schedule and aliases would likely keep you in the clear from a dead hooker gunned down in her prime by a Kahr CW9 and two magazines?

Just make sure you let any potential buyer know up front about the silly BOS so they can skip the meet up. It's total nonsense.

I want the B.O.S. not to protect myself from coming under investigation for an illegal firearms sale, but as proof that my wife and I sold the gun with the name of the buyer so if the gun is ever used for something unlawful, we can (a) show the authorities that we no longer own the gun, and (b) point them in the direction of the person who might be able to answer their questions.

If I can't sell it without having to skip the B.O.S. then we will trade it in on her new revolver. But I'm not selling a gun to someone I don't know without having some form of proof that the gun was sold.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....Do you do all that when you sell a hunting knife or something else that can be used as a weapon or for an illegal purpose?

A hunting knife is still not a gun. Some of the differences in how buying and selling of different types of things might be managed and why were touched upon in posts 73, 78, 79, 81, and 85.

Or I prefer to keep my identity intact and not have it stolen....

And no doubt you'll find folks selling guns who will accommodate your preference.

However, you will also find folks who will not, and their reasons for not accommodating your preference are legally valid.

I want the B.O.S. not to protect myself from coming under investigation for an illegal firearms sale, but as proof that my wife and I sold the gun with the name of the buyer so if the gun is ever used for something unlawful, we can (a) show the authorities that we no longer own the gun, and (b) point them in the direction of the person who might be able to answer their questions....

And that is a perfectly legitimate concern and way to deal with it. It might be a deal breaker for some buyers, but it is reasonable and prudent for a seller to insist on managing things in that way. If that's unsatisfactory to a buyer, then I guess the seller and buyer just can't agree on terms and won't be doing business.

 

[FITASC]

However, you will also find folks who will not, and their reasons for not accommodating your preference are legally valid.

While their reasons may be valid ( and I agree they are that), the "legally" part I'll disagree with as it is not a requirement in the state where I live. We have no FOID cards or need to run any transaction through a FFL. Having bought and sold guns both with and without BOS, I am not in the camp of writing all of that down.

 

[Skans]

I want the B.O.S. not to protect myself from coming under investigation for an illegal firearms sale, but as proof that my wife and I sold the gun with the name of the buyer so if the gun is ever used for something unlawful, we can (a) show the authorities that we no longer own the gun, and (b) point them in the direction of the person who might be able to answer their questions.

A firearms bill of sale, or at least the ones I've seen, really is not a bill of sale. A traditional bill of sale is a one-way document signed by the seller that transfers ownership and provides the buyer with evidence of the sale. It's not something typically signed by the buyer or given by the buyer to a seller. As a buyer, I'd want a bill of sale to show that I legitimately purchased the gun. The Seller might want some other type of document protecting him signed, but I'd submit that whatever it is it's not a bill-of-sale.

This one http://www.billofsale-template.com/firearm-bill-of-sale for example, requires the buyer and seller to sign. Its more of a contract than a bill of sale. In this one the Buyer is "certifying" certain information and acknowledging that the gun is sold "as-is". I would call those warranties and representations, i.e. the seller is receiving certain representations, waivers of warranty and money in exchange for the gun. Contract, not a bill of sale.

 

[Frank Ettin]

However, you will also find folks who will not, and their reasons for not accommodating your preference are legally valid.

While their reasons may be valid ( and I agree they are that), the "legally" part I'll disagree with as it is not a requirement in the state where I live.....

Your understanding of the use of the term "legally" here is too narrow. It's not necessarily a matter of some statute requiring an act or documentation with specific adverse consequences if the requirement isn't satisfied. Rather it's a question of the documentation having legal value in the event complications arise from the transaction.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A firearms bill of sale, or at least the ones I've seen, really is not a bill of sale. A traditional bill of sale is a one-way document signed by the seller that transfers ownership and provides the buyer with evidence of the sale. It's not something typically signed by the buyer or given by the buyer to a seller. As a buyer, I'd want a bill of sale to show that I legitimately purchased the gun. The Seller might want some other type of document protecting him signed, but I'd submit that whatever it is it's not a bill-of-sale.

This one http://www.billofsale-template.com/firearm-bill-of-sale for example, requires the buyer and seller to sign. Its more of a contract than a bill of sale. In this one the Buyer is "certifying" certain information and acknowledging that the gun is sold "as-is". I would call those warranties and representations, i.e. the seller is receiving certain representations, waivers of warranty and money in exchange for the gun. Contract, not a bill of sale.

That's correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

There are tens of thousands of firearm sales and trades between nonlicensees every year without a bill of sale, a contract, a DNA sample or any other silliness.

The chance nonlicensees will receive ANY sort of hassle from ATF on a gun trace is pathetically remote. I've had a dozen or so gun traces in the last eight years. Four were stolen/recovered firearm traces and the others were guns the customer had sold or traded to another nonlicensee.....and didn't have a damn thing to prove it either. In each case ATF merely said thank you and went away. ATF didn't ask for a bill of sale, they didn't ask if the seller verified the identity, address or state of residence of the buyer....they just asked "Do you/did you know the buyer?" "Some guy I met at a gun show" and "Some guy on Texas Gun Trader" were the two most common responses.

If you are a seller, first tell prospective buyers that you require them to sign a bill of sale, show their drivers license, and that you'll write down all their personal info. If you wait until meeting the buyer to disclose this.......YOU ARE A JERK of the highest order. If you have an online Want to Sell ad this should be in your listing. That way, prospective buyers who value their privacy won't bother buying a gun from you.

If you are a buyer, first tell the seller that you require them to provide a bill of sale or receipt, show their drivers license and that you'll write down all their personal info. If you wait until meeting the seller to disclose this.......YOU ARE A JERK of the highest order. If you are responding to a Want to Sell you should tell the seller that this is a requirement of your offer to buy. That way, a seller can tell you to take a hike and keep his personal information confidential.

If you are so terrified of the consequences of selling/trading/buying with another nonlicensee.......meet at a local gun store and ask them to do the transfer. This way both seller and buyer don't have to disclose personal information to each other. The buyer will complete a Form 4473 and the dealer will run NICS check. Your dealer may not be familiar with the procedures to do a private party transfer so have him read this:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/fflguidepdf/download

 

[Frank Ettin]

Getting circular, and nothing new is coming up. So let's end this now.