Private Gun sales-- Warning!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ramey said:
...I hope you're a better lawyer than you are a forum member. Have a nice day frank. ...

Yes, I was a good and successful lawyer. I'm comfortably retired now.

As for my qualities as a forum member, I've certainly been around here a good deal longer than you have. I've no doubt my share of enemies and detractors. But I also know that some folks have appreciated my contributions. You'll be better able for form your own opinion if you hang around for awhile and read a good deal more of my posts.
 
And your parameters are fine for facts. But opinions are for anyone. Like the saying goes: opinions are like xxxxxxxx. Everybody got one! If you fact checked all the opinions on any forum there wouldn't be much content left.
 
Regarding the Bill of Sale, I like receiving one in a private transaction if I can get one. It documents what I paid, to whom I paid it and when the transaction occurred. Can it be faked? Anything can be faked. But, its like anything else - thieves will move on to easier targets who don't ask questions and ask for a BOS.

The last gun I purchased FTF, I had to sign a made-up document acknowledging that I was legally allowed to buy a gun - and this involved a long-time friend of mine! Big deal, I signed it.

When I sell a gun FTF (which is rare), I will ask to see a driver's license and take down name and DL# of the Purchaser. In fact, last time I was at a Gun Show walking around with a gun for sale, on my sign it said "MUST BE LEGAL FOR YOU TO BUY AND DRIVERS LICENSE OR FFL REQUIRED FOR PURCHASE". I really don't want to even start a conversation with a criminal about selling a gun - I figure if nothing else, this sign is like mosquito repellent.

The bottom line is that there is NO GUN that I want to buy from a thief; and NO GUN that I ever want to sell to a criminal. I simply don't need another gun or more money, so if a potential buyer or seller doesn't want to do business with me, good riddance!
 
If you want to LOOK at my license to make sure I am from the same state - fine - but you are NOT writing that number down and having my address and whatever else at your disposal.
 
but you are NOT writing that number down and having my address and whatever else at your disposal.

If you ever want to buy a gun FTF from me, yes I will. My gun, my terms. Your money, you're free to take your business elsewhere.
 
Eazyeach said:
....opinions are for anyone.....

Absolutely. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. But that doesn't mean that anyone's opinion is inviolable or beyond challenge. And some opinions are still better, more valuable, and more useful than others. Some opinions are supportable -- with evidence, data, experience or otherwise. Some opinions are specious. I can't see how specious opinions, even though one is entitled to hold them, can do anyone any good.

Eazyeach said:
You can challenge anyone's opinions but you're kinda being a dick about it.
So it's inappropriate to ask someone on what he bases his opinion? It's inappropriate to ask someone to support an opinion with evidence? It's inappropriate to point out that an opinion that can't be supported can't be worth much?

People act on opinions, and flawed opinions can produce bad decisions -- or at least unexpected, undesirable consequences.
 
FITASC said:
If you want to LOOK at my license to make sure I am from the same state - fine - but you are NOT writing that number down and having my address and whatever else at your disposal.
Skans said:
If you ever want to buy a gun FTF from me, yes I will. My gun, my terms. Your money, you're free to take your business elsewhere.

And that's a fine example of two parties making their respective decisions regarding the terms upon which each will do business. Each has decided for himself the risk and inconvenience associated with the contemplated transaction and each has decided his tolerance for risk and inconvenience.

In this case, it's not a match, so they wouldn't do the deal.
 
I didn't ask anyone to accept my opinion as THE answer. You ask why anyone should listen to me? I suppose I'll simply say that I have a lot of experience in face to face private and wholly 100% legal firearms transactions -AND- in Ohio, no less.

I am pro-gun, pro-rights and pro-privacy.

Your posts make it appear that you are staunch pro-lawyer and pro-Frank.

Fantastic. I wonder if you write this time off as a business expense on your taxes.
 
This type of thread seems to pop up periodically, on TFL and on other "gun" forums. As always, it seems there are two general groups -- 1) Those who are rigorous about wanting private sales/purchases to be "off paper" (meaning neither party gets any documentation and there is no paper trail); and 2) those who feel that they have some protection, whether buying or selling, by having both the buyer and seller sign a bill of sale, and both parties keep a copy. I understand and I sympathize with both views; each has arguments in its favor. I think each of us has to find his/her own comfort level ... perhaps more when selling than when buying.

Nobody wants to sell a gun and years later have the police knock on the door because "your" gun (that you sold years ago) has been recovered at a crime scene. Yet the fact is that you can comply with all applicable laws (in most states) and have this happen. Unless your state requires a background check for private purchases (mine does), the law doesn't require that a seller perform any "due diligence" at all. The federal law says we can't sell a firearm to someone we know or have reason to believe is a prohibited person. The law doesn't require you to ask if the person is prohibited. The law doesn't require you to verify that the buyer lives in your state. I think it's safe to assume that most of us would probably perform some perfunctory level of verification before selling to a private buyer, but that's where it starts to get muddy.

Just in this thread we've seen members say they would insist on a written bill of sale, others who want to write down the buyers name and address (and probably his driver's license or carry permit number), and still others who would walk away from a buy if the seller tried to write down their personal information. Yet, except in a few states, any of these approaches would comply with the law.

Personally, I don't have a choice because of my state's laws. The very first pistol I bought was from a private seller, and he had to submit the sale through the state police for approval. Since then, I've always bought through an FFL. Being a conspiracy theorist, I believe that we might see a day when the government tries to confiscate privately-held firearms, and for that reason I would love to able to legally buy a gun or two "off paper." I can't as long as I live here, but if I ever find a way to relocate to a "free" state, that will be on my agenda.

And yet I admit to being a hypocrite, because I certainly don't want any gun I might sell to be used in a crime. For that reason, although I would buy privately if I could, I won't sell privately. I don't like to sell guns, but over the years I have had to sell a few, and I have always done so through an FFL, usually on consignment. That creates a hard document showing that when the firearm left my possession and control, it went to a licensed FFL. Anything that happens after that is on him.

It's a matter of differing levels of what makes you comfortable, and I don't think we should criticize others if their personal comfort level doesn't happen to agree with ours. As long as it's within the law -- it's legal.
 
Last edited:
Sevens said:
...I am pro-gun, pro-rights and pro-privacy.

Your posts make it appear that you are staunch pro-lawyer and pro-Frank.
....

What I really am is pro-knowledge.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with making business decisions based to some degree on personal values or beliefs. But it's useful to understand that's what one is doing and that there might be possible consequences to such decision making.

So, using this issue as an example, if someone decides he wants to be able to sell or buy guns without any documentation, where it's legal to do so, because of his philosophical or ideological perspective on the RKBA, that's a reasonable decision and a fair basis for that decision. But he's not making a fully informed decision if he rationalizes it by mistakenly believing that documenting the transaction could have no value legally or by mistakenly believing that certain documentation might not be useful if things get complicated.

There are legal reasons why documenting the transaction is a good idea. There are philosophical/ideological reasons not to. By all means make your choice, but understand why you're making that choice.
 
Frank went to law school when Socrates was still teaching 1st year Contracts. He's just abusing you the same way his contracts professor abused him.:D I don't think he ever means anything personal, just trying to get folks to really think about whether their position is supported or not. Its designed to get you to dig for the "truth", to do a little research to support your position....or come to your own conclusion that perhaps you were wrong.

This is the internet. Being right won't get you an all-paid vacation to beautiful downtown Burbank. And, being wrong won't get you kicked out of Harvard... Merry Christmas and be safe.
 
I definitely support everyone's absolute RIGHT to do as they choose under the law. To put it bluntly however, you are a JERK if you do not clearly disclose your plans for this BOS right at first contact. You are wasting the other person's time and for certain, much like was said above, I am walking away if this is sprung on me.

Your best bet to not being implicated in a random, possible or imagined future crime is to not live a lifestyle that makes you a suspect in a crime. The BOS is no legal talisman to wipe away investigating LE, it's scribbles on a paper. It's no more (arguably less!) valuable than the voice recording that I suggested 5yrs ago in an earlier post.

This sort of thing would be a completely ludicrous discussion for bush trimming shears or a long handled axe sold at a garage sale, but it seems perfectly acceptable when discussing *gasp* handguns. Perhaps this is a west coast thought process.

If the BOS were a magical "get out of everything" certified document, I might have more of an open mind. What it appears to be is a piece of paper with my name and home address -- maybe not top secret info, but it is a one page "guns are absolutely located right here specifically" piece of paper and it simply doesn't have the power to take your name out of any supposed, possible or imagine future heinous crime. I would think a lawyer would acknowledge that.
 
What it appears to be is a piece of paper with my name and home address -- maybe not top secret info, but it is a one page "guns are absolutely located right here specifically" piece of paper

Ok, I'll settle for your name, no address, your driver's license number....and, your thumbprint inked in your own blood. See, I'm not a Jerk.

This sort of thing would be a completely ludicrous discussion for bush trimming shears or a long handled axe sold at a garage sale,

If I'm buying a bunch of items at an estate sale (long handled ax, bush trimming shears, 1825 sterling tea set and an original Tiefeng painting), you better believe I will demand a bill of sale! I would at least have the defense of a bona fide purchaser for value if the dead guy ain't really dead. (Please don't rehash this with me Frank, I remember....)
 
Last edited:
Sevens said:
.....it simply doesn't have the power to take your name out of any supposed, possible or imagine future heinous crime. I would think a lawyer would acknowledge that.
And I addressed that in post 51.

Sevens said:
...bush trimming shears or a long handled axe sold at a garage sale,...
And those aren't a handgun. Among other things, they're not going to be selling for the kind of money a handgun will be selling for, nor are they items the possession of which is regulated by state and federal law. They also probably aren't stolen as often as handguns, nor are they as popular with criminals wanting to stick up convenience stores.

When buying or selling things one adopts practices appropriate to the nature, including value, of the things being bought or sold. So I'm not going to bother too much if I'm selling my old kindling axe for $5.00 at my yard sale. On the other hand, if I'm consigning to Sotheby's for auction a $4,000 Ottoman battle axe, I'd expect the transaction to be extremely well documented.
 
"I will need to see a Driver's License or something just to make sure you're an Ohio resident..."

A stolen/fake Ohio I.D.?
A copy of a water bill?
A note from his mother?

:rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top