Pretty disturbing range experience

[Rspeters]

Later, after firing another 50 rounds (and missing about 47 of them ) I heard him bragging to his girlfriend "Wow, look, I got a bullseye!". Yeah, sorta like how even a broken watch is right twice a day. You shoot enough rounds in a particular direction, and eventually one of them is bound to hit the target!

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

 

[10 Beers]

There have always been range slobs. Sometimes at supervised ranges and always at unsupervised ranges. There have always been low lifes. The "gang bang" and "Thug" culture is just the latest breed. Half of them are well brought up middle class white boys who are scared they won't fit in if they don't walk around like they're in an Emenem (Rap) video. I see the little kid from down the street who mowed lawns now 16 and walking down the street (the sidewalk's not gangsta) holdin' his junk and waddling like he has a rash. All outlandish behavior is a plea for attention and the fool at the range got yours, I try to ignore them. However, on a technical note, there's a good bit of metal in the carriages and arms and coardboard clips that hold the targets that is NOT meant to be shot. Take a look some time, they're full of dents. Here's a thought everybody, next time at the indoor range check the wall BEHIND you for holes.

 

[MLeake]

After further explanation by the OP....

... seems to me that, hip-hop dude or true gangbanger, if the guy was discourteous and rude to the woman he brought with him, that would be reason enough for me to NOT teach him to shoot better.

Although I have met a lot of non-gangbanger men who were complete jerks toward women.

Wouldn't give those guys any help, or the time of day, either.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Gang banger or wanna be, makes no difference. Poor attitude, no respect for others, and no sense of responsibility! If it walks like a duck etc!!!

You must have posted in the wrong thread. The person in question appeared to have a fine attitude. He was having a good time. No respect for others? No sense of responsibility? How could you determine this from the descriptions.

If you knew anything about gangbangers, you would know they have a tremendous amount of respect for others that they respect and they do have responsibility.

Anyway, I personally don't mind if there are 10 other people spraying their rounds like machine guns. If there are thousands of rounds shooting off around me every minute, that's fine. Excessive noise is a stress, so that lets me work on handling ignoring it. Just another aspect of training. My only concern is that, as Swamp Yankee pointed out, being sloppy and foolish with a gun is never a good thing, and that leads to accidents. I prefer someone like that have his accident in the privacy of his own home, not on the range with me.

Strangely, people complain about there being too much noise at the gun range when they are shooting. I never figured that out either. As for being sloppy and foolish not being a good thing, the alledged gangbanger was safer than your Indiana cop who should have had fairly extensive training at some point, even if he wasn't currently proficient.

The subject in question was being fooling. Being foolish with a firearm is dangerous. Ergo, the "gang-banger" was being dangerous!

The person who was there stated that he did nothing unsafe. How can you argue with that?

So just how was the guy being foolish?

He wasn't a great shot, but his shooting wasn't unsafe.

If you want to talk about being unsafe, check out the guy in the videos of post #34. He repeatedly violates all of the safety rules....and he wrote them.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431067&page=2&highlight=cooper+safety+rules

 

[HK-Lance]

Skadoosh wrote:

Gang banger or not, unless he is an escaped fugitive or has a warrant out for his arrest and if the proprietor has no problem with him being there, he still has as much a right to be there as you. And you still have the right to stay or leave. It is why this country remains great.

I have no idea why you're constantly referring to his "right" to be there. I never mentioned anything about rights, or who has more right to be there, or any such thing. My original post has nothing to do with whether he has a "right" to be at the range. I simply asked for others' insight on how they might handle such a situation, since it fell into a gray area, ie someone not necessarily doing something outright dangerous, but acting in a manner that puts him on the borderline of doing so.

Strangely, people complain about there being too much noise at the gun range when they are shooting. I never figured that out either. As for being sloppy and foolish not being a good thing, the alledged gangbanger was safer than your Indiana cop who should have had fairly extensive training at some point, even if he wasn't currently proficient.

So very true. Disturbing, isn't it, that I ran into a cop that had less gun safety skills than some young gangebanger type.

 

[HK-Lance]

JCSturgeon wrote:

I'm not part of the culture, so I don't understand it, but some guys just like hip hop, rap etc. and they kind of dress the part. Baggy jeans, a wifebeater and a 'do rag don't make a guy a "gangbanger".

Again, I never said he wore baggy pants or wore a wifebeater or whatever. You're making assumptions, and assuming I'm simply guessing based on his image. When you're living around gangbangers, you can spot them a mile away, and you can almost always tell when someone is just dressing the part as opposed to being an actual gang member. Just like how seasoned cops can usually tell if someone is up to no good, lying, etc.

 

[HK-Lance]

Teeroux wrote:

You could have shot his target for him while he fired. That would give em a swoll head and he could show his girl his mad skill.

ROTFLMAO!!! I never thought of that!

Hell, if I hadn't been on the opposite side of the range, that might actually have worked! LOL!

 

[HK-Lance]

Swamp Yankee wrote:

I would argue that someone whose stance is so improper as to cause them to fall over with their trigger on the finger is being dangerous. Do you disagree? Is this a stance you practice? To be clear, the subject did not fall over. But the potential for him to fall over existed and he was utilizing a very poor stance that could not provide secure control of his firearm.

For hypothetical consideration: If you place a loaded gun on the kitchen table in front of a 5 year old and leave the room, is this dangerous? Even if the kid has not touched the gun before you left the room? (Answer: most certainly and without a doubt YES)

The point being that something or someone can go from foolish to dangerous and/or deadly in a split second which is why gun safety (or defensive driving or safety with tools, ladders, knives, swimming pools, etc.) is so important. From now I consider anyone being foolish with a gun to be considered dangerous.

I think you understand what I'm getting at perfectly. It's not that he was doing anything immediately dangerous, ie he was not pointing his gun at other shooters or trying to spin it on his finger like a cowboy or anything. He was just being a moron, and straddling that fine line where all it takes to win a Darwin Award is a tiny little misstep. Which does make it a dangerous or at least very potentially dangerous situation.

Which is why I asked for some feedback. It seemed that if I went to the range officer, what could I say? "Some fool is missing his target and almost fell over"? Not sure the complaint would seem very serious. And confronting the gangbanger won't likely get anywhere either. "Do you mind learning how to shoot and be careful not to fall on your ass and shoot me accidentally?". You see where I'm going with this. Others can't.

 

[HK-Lance]

Wow, lots of replies to make!

Double Naught Spy wrote:

You must have posted in the wrong thread. The person in question appeared to have a fine attitude. He was having a good time. No respect for others? No sense of responsibility? How could you determine this from the descriptions.

Well, as far as him calling his girlfriend a "bitch" and treating her like dirt, I'd say that's definitely not respectable. Considering there were other women present, that makes him doubly a boor. And I'd say the fact that he clearly made no attempt to even look up basic safety protocols on the internet (or if he did, chose to ignore them), much less take a class, but instead blast away like he has a new toy and almost ended up falling over (and possibly shooting someone), I'd say that's very irresponsible.

I had a new shooter with me, and I stood next to him, telling him how to stand, how to aim, here's how you load the gun safely, keep that barrel pointed downrange at all times, etc. Had him clean up after himself too. The gangbanger left used targets on the firing lane, he didn't even bother to dump his garbage after he was done. Rude and obnoxious.

If you knew anything about gangbangers, you would know they have a tremendous amount of respect for others that they respect and they do have responsibility.

I can count on my hand how many gangbangers I've come across that have respect for anyone. Minus a thumb and forefinger.

BTW...ooops! I mis-attributed this quote to Skadoosh:

Strangely, people complain about there being too much noise at the gun range when they are shooting. I never figured that out either. As for being sloppy and foolish not being a good thing, the alledged gangbanger was safer than your Indiana cop who should have had fairly extensive training at some point, even if he wasn't currently proficient.

Sorry, that was from Double Naught Spy. And very true. Sadly.

The person who was there stated that he did nothing unsafe. How can you argue with that?

So just how was the guy being foolish?

He wasn't a great shot, but his shooting wasn't unsafe.

I never meant that he was being safe though. I only mentioned that he did not do something immediately dangerous, ie point his gun at someone, etc. But what he was doing was clearly dangerous, or very close to being dangerous. He tipped backwards at least twice, then re-gained his balance. Had he fallen over, he was far too inexperienced to know to take his finger outside the trigger guard. There was a huge potential that he could have fallen over, since he came so close to doing so. And had he done so, the potential for him shooting whoever was next to him was pretty significant. So yeah, it was at the very least borderline dangerous, if not outright dangerous.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

If someone is unsafe, or breaking range rules, then by all means notify the rangemaster.

Other than that, if their race/creed/color/religion/style of dress/whatever bothers you, then take a break or come back another time.

 

[Incognito]

So the majority of the thread has turned into a discussion on social profiling :barf:

My last three visits to a public range (about three years ago) made me realize that just like a driver's license, anybody can get one, whether they're proficient at it or completely incompetent, and allowed to operate a pontentially deadly weapon regardless. Unfortunately at a shooting range one does not have the option to switch lanes, speed up or slow down and get away from the deficient operator.

My advice is join a private club. The caliber of people one encounters there are more refined in what we do and have a greater appreciation, respect, and understanding of our sport

 

[Hardcase]

All of the above is why I shoot at a private range. I don't care what the guy shooting next to me looks like, but I do care about how he behaves, particularly when it comes to shooting responsibly.

I shoot at the private range because I've shot at plenty of unsupervised public ranges. I don't want to have to leave the range because I feel that my safety is about to be compromised. It doesn't matter if the unsafe shooter is wearing a suit or has his pants below his butt. I'm not the range officer, I'm not the safety officer and I'm not an instructor. So, I shoot at the private range. And if somebody behaves in an unsafe manner, I can talk to one of the club officers and the problem will be fixed...or go away.

It sounds heartless and maybe even snobby, but there are certain situations where the risk/reward calculation just doesn't compute.

Oh, and we do a pretty good job of cleaning and maintaining the private range...that's a big plus in my book!

 

[SwampYankee]

The person who was there stated that he did nothing unsafe. How can you argue with that?

The OP never said the subject in question was "unsafe" but he also never said he was being "safe". He described a precarious situation and implied that the shooter was being foolish/unsafe/flat-out-stupid. If, while you are firing a gun, your spine is bent so far back as to cause you to nearly fall over, you are being unsafe/foolish/idiotic, in my humble opinion. Please, pretty please, tell me how this is a "safe" shooting stance? Nevermind the fact that he can't hit a target at 10'. At 10' anyone should be able to at least hit a 8x11 piece of paper. I'm no crack shot but at 10' I can put each round in a 3" circle without trying, and I could do that when I was 9 years old with my Beretta Model 70.

Despite what was "said", the condition is unsafe as described: thus foolish and with a gun in hand, dangerous.

I am the King of England. I explicitly said it. Do you believe it?

 

[Skadoosh]

HK-Lance wrote:

Skadoosh wrote:

Gang banger or not, unless he is an escaped fugitive or has a warrant out for his arrest and if the proprietor has no problem with him being there, he still has as much a right to be there as you. And you still have the right to stay or leave. It is why this country remains great.

I have no idea why you're constantly referring to his "right" to be there. I never mentioned anything about rights, or who has more right to be there, or any such thing. My original post has nothing to do with whether he has a "right" to be at the range. I simply asked for others' insight on how they might handle such a situation, since it fell into a gray area, ie someone not necessarily doing something outright dangerous, but acting in a manner that puts him on the borderline of doing so.

Well then it seems to me that if you felt he was borderline unsafe and didn't have the intestinal fortitude to say anything to him about it, then coming here to ask what we think about it is beside the point.

 

[HK-Lance]

Has nothing to do with intestinal fortitude, it has to do with what's the best way to approach a situation in a gray area.

 

[Claude Clay]

most clubs have rules about rounds on target--if most are not than you are out. not cut and dried but the tone is convayed by the RO thusly. besides, rounds off target are potential rick-o-shays. bad juju.

worked for me a couple of times in the past is--when he takes time to reload i say to hime like--"i've been looking for a gun like that, may i try a couple of rounds?" sure says he and i place 3 in the black fast and thank him. you cant count to 3 before he's all over me asking how i did that.

you can make friends in the oddest of places under the strangest of conditions. though if either had been wearing colors, ida been packed & gone home. remember that rule about avoiding trouble often gets harder the longer you avoid doing it.

 

[Microgunner]

A short while later, in walks this degenerate who was clearly a gang-banger,

Wow. You don't know the guy and you label him a degenerate gang-banger?

Maybe you're the one people should be eyeing suspiciously.

 

[10 Beers]

Labels are assigned to things based on their properties. Like bullets being labeled ammunition and apples being labeled fruit. People label themselves and the whole label thing is old and tired. Let's assume the t*rd was a fine young gentileman from a good family destine for collage. That means everything he said and did and how he dressed was contrived to make you think he was a pimp mac daddy gang banger. Your labeling was all he ever wanted, mission accomplished. I prefer to label myself as a good man who would help anyone who needed and deserved it and who buys clothes that fit me. That's the label I'm looking for. The bottom line is IF YOU ACT LIKE A (blank), PEOPLE WILL TREAT YOU LIKE A (blank), you fill in the blank, not me.

 

[10 Beers]

By the way, you can try this. Just say "Dude, everybody looks funny at you when you shoot like that, I don't think they like it "

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The OP never said the subject in question was "unsafe" but he also never said he was being "safe". He described a precarious situation and implied that the shooter was being foolish/unsafe/flat-out-stupid.

He didn't imply unsafe and stated nothing unsafe happened.

What he stated was that he thought the guy was a degenerate gang-banger who didn't shoot well and didn't like the stance and suggested he didn't have common sense, though never stated anything to support a lack of common sense. He didn't like the way the guy was shooting, plain and simple.

I really liked this comment...

Second, he was close to falling over backwards, and had he done so, I highly doubt he would have had either the presence of mind or even the common sense knowledge to take his finger outside of the trigger guard to avoid accidental discharge as he fell.

I cannot begin to tell you have many people I have seen in this shooting position, often females, often older people, people who can't see up close, usually new to shooting. Being new to shooting, then they probably didn't "have the presence of mind or even the common sense knowledge to take their finger outisde the trigger guard to avoid accidental discharge as they fell." They seem to try to get their head as far back from the gun as possible to shoot. It looks precarious. I haven't seen any fall over backwards.

New shooter discussions pertaining to leaning back, sometimes WAY back...
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24215&start=15
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=33723
http://www.coronadotraining.com/free/lepub2.html
http://olegvolk.livejournal.com/932910.html
http://www.uscops.com/videos-my-girl-shooting-the-ak-[OxzqvsOCySI].cfm

Contrary to the obviously biased comment, taking your finger out of the trigger guard isn't common sense and would not be of presense of mind for a person who fell if they had not had proper training. Actually, the opposite is more true. People tend to grip what they are holding in an attempt to control it as they fall and that grip reflex including squeezing the trigger, unfortunately.