Pretty disturbing range experience
- Thread starter HK-Lance
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SwampYankee
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Right.... and if you continued to read the rest of my post, Double Naught Spy, you would have read my caveat, admitting that it does not seem like the subject in question was being "dangerous" yet- just foolish,
How is this different from your comment?
With that said, foolish people with guns are generally dangerous as a rule.
I wasn't there...
... so I don't know if the OP had other reasons to decide the shooter was a degenerate and a gang-banger.
However, I will say that most of the "are they criminals?" types I've encountered do NOT bring their girlfriends along; they usually come in packs. Dressing the part, might just be some hip-hop kid.
In fact, the last few I ran into, dressed like that, were college kids, and very polite. They just looked ratty, but for some younger people, that's the way they dress.
Me, I was a metal-head at that age, except when I dressed preppy. 50/50 odds I'd have been in either some sort of black tour shirt over torn jeans, or else in a button-down over khakis. Either way, I was a college kid, working to pay my way through school, and heading for AOCS after graduation. Some people probably saw me on one day and thought I'd have a long career serving slushies at 7-11; others probably saw me on other days and assumed I was a spoiled yuppie. Either way, they'd have been off.
So, maybe the OP had other reasons to think this was some degenerate gang-banger. OP could have been right.
But the girlfriend thing makes me think he was probably just a young guy who didn't know how to shoot, and didn't know range etiquette.
I've had a few of those guys approach me when I'm shooting. I'm not a superstar, but I'm good at keeping tight groups at reasonable ranges, at a reasonable pace. I've had some of those guys ask for tips; courtesy goes a long way with me. I usually offer it until somebody gives me reason not to, and I respond to courtesy with courtesy.
So when they've asked, I've helped. By helping them, I helped create a safer situation for myself - less worry about ricochets, or poor weapon control if somebody manages to fall over.
On the few occasions where guys have really been questionable, I've either had a discussion with an RO, or I've left the range.
... so I don't know if the OP had other reasons to decide the shooter was a degenerate and a gang-banger.
However, I will say that most of the "are they criminals?" types I've encountered do NOT bring their girlfriends along; they usually come in packs. Dressing the part, might just be some hip-hop kid.
In fact, the last few I ran into, dressed like that, were college kids, and very polite. They just looked ratty, but for some younger people, that's the way they dress.
Me, I was a metal-head at that age, except when I dressed preppy. 50/50 odds I'd have been in either some sort of black tour shirt over torn jeans, or else in a button-down over khakis. Either way, I was a college kid, working to pay my way through school, and heading for AOCS after graduation. Some people probably saw me on one day and thought I'd have a long career serving slushies at 7-11; others probably saw me on other days and assumed I was a spoiled yuppie. Either way, they'd have been off.
So, maybe the OP had other reasons to think this was some degenerate gang-banger. OP could have been right.
But the girlfriend thing makes me think he was probably just a young guy who didn't know how to shoot, and didn't know range etiquette.
I've had a few of those guys approach me when I'm shooting. I'm not a superstar, but I'm good at keeping tight groups at reasonable ranges, at a reasonable pace. I've had some of those guys ask for tips; courtesy goes a long way with me. I usually offer it until somebody gives me reason not to, and I respond to courtesy with courtesy.
So when they've asked, I've helped. By helping them, I helped create a safer situation for myself - less worry about ricochets, or poor weapon control if somebody manages to fall over.
On the few occasions where guys have really been questionable, I've either had a discussion with an RO, or I've left the range.
Baba Louie
New member
Stand back and keep a minds eye toward your safety, smile at youthful antics, help out if asked maybe, but watch youngsters muzzle fo'shizzle, yo?
Once they leave, go back to shooting. Smiling at youthful antics as well as old mens antics. It's all good.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Swamp Yankee, I did read your post. Did you? Now you say that you admitted that it did not seem like the subject in quesiton was being dangerous, but in your post, you said you weren't sure ...
The OP never said the guy was being dangerous. Given the OP's critical evaluation of the guy, I don't think the OP would have missed a chance to be critical of the guy's safety had he endangered the OP.
Yeah I had a moment like that a few years back. Friend and I went to a 'shooters show' before he went off to the Navy.
anyway, we rented a Springfield Operator and had a good time with it. Then in comes this skinny kid, also clearly a gang-banger or a wannabe (complete witht the 'imma hustler' t-shirt) who rented a Raging Bull in .454
He tried to fire it as fast as he could. By the third round he was almost hiding under the bench in the stall, firing over the bench without even looking and missing every shot. Had he dropped the gun he could have blown my ankle off.
Needless to say I left after that.
anyway, we rented a Springfield Operator and had a good time with it. Then in comes this skinny kid, also clearly a gang-banger or a wannabe (complete witht the 'imma hustler' t-shirt) who rented a Raging Bull in .454
He tried to fire it as fast as he could. By the third round he was almost hiding under the bench in the stall, firing over the bench without even looking and missing every shot. Had he dropped the gun he could have blown my ankle off.
Needless to say I left after that.
There's usually someone you'd rather not shoot with at ranges that are open to the public. There may have been someone else at the same range with the OP. From his perspective, he was upset because his concentration for some serious practice was broken by the OP freaking out because of the alleged gang banger.
I always suggest shooters familiarize themselves with a range's rules before they sign-up to shoot. Look at the rules two ways: are they too restrictive for the type of shooting environment that will make your comfortable, and are they restrictive enough for the same reason.
To avoid the machine gun wannabes, some ranges require a fixed amount of time between shots, three-seconds for example. This may be fine for you, it will keep out the riffraff; but, the rule doesn't work for those practicing a course of Rapid Fire that requires a 5-shot string in 10-seconds.
I always suggest shooters familiarize themselves with a range's rules before they sign-up to shoot. Look at the rules two ways: are they too restrictive for the type of shooting environment that will make your comfortable, and are they restrictive enough for the same reason.
To avoid the machine gun wannabes, some ranges require a fixed amount of time between shots, three-seconds for example. This may be fine for you, it will keep out the riffraff; but, the rule doesn't work for those practicing a course of Rapid Fire that requires a 5-shot string in 10-seconds.
Cheapshooter
New member
Just one of the reason I joined a private hunt club. The range only membership is $110 per year. Anybody like that would be removed immediately, membership revoked, and never allowed back.
Actually, it wouldn't happen because every prospective member is well scrutinized by the owner. If you are not a responsible shooter, no membership.
Actually, it wouldn't happen because every prospective member is well scrutinized by the owner. If you are not a responsible shooter, no membership.
Yikes! It wasn't my intention to ignite this heated a discussion. 
Lots of replies, so I'll just summarize my response so as to not be up all night. I do appreciate all the (constructive) replies.
First thing, I'm almost 100% certain he was a gang-banger. Moved like one, talked like one, acted like one, dressed like one. Was pretty vulgar and snotty towards his girlfriend too, so he left a very bad impression with me. I live in a pretty nice upscale neighborhood, but it's surrounded on 3 sides by pure ghetto. The range happens to be in one of them. Grew up in Chicago so I'm pretty good at sniffing out gang-bangers.
Second, I could have gotten his brass but it would have done me no good. I have a .45, he was shooting 9mm.
Otherwise, I would have! 
Had he been alone, I might have considered striking up a conversation and being a "chameleon" and getting on his good side just enough to give him some pointers on at least basic safety issues with him being happy for the advice. But seeing as he was there with his girlfriend, it really wouldn't have gone over well, so I figured it was a waste of time. Who wants unsolicited advice about something like how to shoot a gun when they're trying to impress their girlfriend?
Nothing I saw him doing was technically unsafe, per se. But clearly he had no clue about guns, and having someone who thinks spraying the range wildly while being a short step away from losing his footing while shooting is on the very cusp of "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!". I was there with a friend so when one of us was shooting the other was keeping an eye on him just in case. He came close to falling backwards at least once, and it's not a stretch by any imagination for someone falling down like that to have an accidental discharge.
The good thing is, he didn't stay long. When you're shooting 15 rounds in 5 seconds, you tend not to spend a lot of time at the range unless you have lots of money for ammo.
I agree with the people who essentially said "I wouldn't help a gang-banger learn how to shoot". Same reason I won't teach them martial arts or anything about knives or whatnot.
I wasn't fearful that he would start a gunfight. I think Double Naught Spy exaggerated what I was trying to say. All I meant was that you never know, when it comes to gang bangers, when they're gonna go berserk. While it would seem unlikely that he would get into a gun battle with a ranger master or anyone else, you just never know. People are crazy and stupid. I was once at an outdoor range in Indiana and a cop was there shooting. He got there shortly before our group was about to leave. Well, he had some sort of feed jam, and he starts grabbing at the slide with his finger still on the trigger, then turns the barrel to point inwards towards his pancreas (roughly) with his finger still on the trigger, while wrestling with the slide. I simply said to him "How about you point that away from yourself and keep it downrange till I leave?". Didn't feel like having to call the paramedics while tending to a cop with a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
Anyway, I personally don't mind if there are 10 other people spraying their rounds like machine guns. If there are thousands of rounds shooting off around me every minute, that's fine. Excessive noise is a stress, so that lets me work on handling ignoring it. Just another aspect of training. My only concern is that, as Swamp Yankee pointed out, being sloppy and foolish with a gun is never a good thing, and that leads to accidents. I prefer someone like that have his accident in the privacy of his own home, not on the range with me.
So that's why I asked. Had he been doing something outright dangerous, I'd have left and had the range officer handle it. But it gets trickier when the person is simply being foolish and while not perhaps dangerous outright, is putting himself on the edge of going into very dangerous territory. I'm so used to having a range to myself or to me and a group of trusted friends that when something like this comes up, I'm looking for pointers.
Lots of replies, so I'll just summarize my response so as to not be up all night. I do appreciate all the (constructive) replies. First thing, I'm almost 100% certain he was a gang-banger. Moved like one, talked like one, acted like one, dressed like one. Was pretty vulgar and snotty towards his girlfriend too, so he left a very bad impression with me. I live in a pretty nice upscale neighborhood, but it's surrounded on 3 sides by pure ghetto. The range happens to be in one of them. Grew up in Chicago so I'm pretty good at sniffing out gang-bangers.
Second, I could have gotten his brass but it would have done me no good. I have a .45, he was shooting 9mm.
Otherwise, I would have! Had he been alone, I might have considered striking up a conversation and being a "chameleon" and getting on his good side just enough to give him some pointers on at least basic safety issues with him being happy for the advice. But seeing as he was there with his girlfriend, it really wouldn't have gone over well, so I figured it was a waste of time. Who wants unsolicited advice about something like how to shoot a gun when they're trying to impress their girlfriend?
Nothing I saw him doing was technically unsafe, per se. But clearly he had no clue about guns, and having someone who thinks spraying the range wildly while being a short step away from losing his footing while shooting is on the very cusp of "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!". I was there with a friend so when one of us was shooting the other was keeping an eye on him just in case. He came close to falling backwards at least once, and it's not a stretch by any imagination for someone falling down like that to have an accidental discharge.
The good thing is, he didn't stay long. When you're shooting 15 rounds in 5 seconds, you tend not to spend a lot of time at the range unless you have lots of money for ammo.
I agree with the people who essentially said "I wouldn't help a gang-banger learn how to shoot". Same reason I won't teach them martial arts or anything about knives or whatnot.
I wasn't fearful that he would start a gunfight. I think Double Naught Spy exaggerated what I was trying to say. All I meant was that you never know, when it comes to gang bangers, when they're gonna go berserk. While it would seem unlikely that he would get into a gun battle with a ranger master or anyone else, you just never know. People are crazy and stupid. I was once at an outdoor range in Indiana and a cop was there shooting. He got there shortly before our group was about to leave. Well, he had some sort of feed jam, and he starts grabbing at the slide with his finger still on the trigger, then turns the barrel to point inwards towards his pancreas (roughly) with his finger still on the trigger, while wrestling with the slide.
I simply said to him "How about you point that away from yourself and keep it downrange till I leave?". Didn't feel like having to call the paramedics while tending to a cop with a self-inflicted gunshot wound.Anyway, I personally don't mind if there are 10 other people spraying their rounds like machine guns. If there are thousands of rounds shooting off around me every minute, that's fine. Excessive noise is a stress, so that lets me work on handling ignoring it. Just another aspect of training. My only concern is that, as Swamp Yankee pointed out, being sloppy and foolish with a gun is never a good thing, and that leads to accidents. I prefer someone like that have his accident in the privacy of his own home, not on the range with me.
So that's why I asked. Had he been doing something outright dangerous, I'd have left and had the range officer handle it. But it gets trickier when the person is simply being foolish and while not perhaps dangerous outright, is putting himself on the edge of going into very dangerous territory. I'm so used to having a range to myself or to me and a group of trusted friends that when something like this comes up, I'm looking for pointers.
Gang banger or not, unless he is an escaped fugitive or has a warrant out for his arrest and if the proprietor has no problem with him being there, he still has as much a right to be there as you. And you still have the right to stay or leave. It is why this country remains great.
jcsturgeon
New member
Also, how can you tell if someone is a "gangbanger". You're making the claim that they are a criminal and belong to a continuous criminal enterprise. If a guy wears a cowboy hat with boots I don't assume they drive cattle, if someone wears a football jersey that doesn't mean they play football and if someone wears camo I don't assume they are in the military.
I'm not part of the culture, so I don't understand it, but some guys just like hip hop, rap etc. and they kind of dress the part. Baggy jeans, a wifebeater and a 'do rag don't make a guy a "gangbanger".
I'm not part of the culture, so I don't understand it, but some guys just like hip hop, rap etc. and they kind of dress the part. Baggy jeans, a wifebeater and a 'do rag don't make a guy a "gangbanger".
m.p.driver
New member
I was at an indoor range with three inner city challenged individuals who would lean back,one hand in their pocket,hi-point turned side ways and just blast away.Out of two hundred rounds they might have hit their target 10 times.They did however hit the floor,ceiling,florescent light,and the target retraction bracket.They were asked to leave by the owner.
It's comforting to know that some youths of today shoot like this,it's also comforting to me to have been taught by my Tennessean WW1 vet Grand pappy,and the U.S.Army,who both stressed make the first shot count.
It's comforting to know that some youths of today shoot like this,it's also comforting to me to have been taught by my Tennessean WW1 vet Grand pappy,and the U.S.Army,who both stressed make the first shot count.
SwampYankee
New member
DNS,
I guess i just have a poor grasp of the English language. I thought that:
it does not seem like = I'm not sure,
...where both imply an uncertainty on my part about the actions of the described subject, allowing for the fact that "does not seem like" asserts more confidence than "not sure", which suggests more overall ambivalence. So to continue this semantic debate, please posit your theory contradicting my hypothesis that these two phrases are substantially the same in meaning based on the currently applied context.
As to the inherent danger, you specifically say,
You're right, the OP does not explicitly say that subject was dangerous. In my initial reading, it seemed like the OP was being overly critical but upon further consideration I have decided not to equivocate any longer! No more "unsure", no more "does not seem likely". I will take a stand!
The subject in question was being fooling. Being foolish with a firearm is dangerous. Ergo, the "gang-banger" was being dangerous! [Flourish of horns and cheers follows here...]
I would argue that someone whose stance is so improper as to cause them to fall over with their trigger on the finger is being dangerous. Do you disagree? Is this a stance you practice? To be clear, the subject did not fall over. But the potential for him to fall over existed and he was utilizing a very poor stance that could not provide secure control of his firearm.
For hypothetical consideration: If you place a loaded gun on the kitchen table in front of a 5 year old and leave the room, is this dangerous? Even if the kid has not touched the gun before you left the room? (Answer: most certainly and without a doubt YES)
The point being that something or someone can go from foolish to dangerous and/or deadly in a split second which is why gun safety (or defensive driving or safety with tools, ladders, knives, swimming pools, etc.) is so important. From now I consider anyone being foolish with a gun to be considered dangerous.
I guess i just have a poor grasp of the English language. I thought that:
it does not seem like = I'm not sure,
...where both imply an uncertainty on my part about the actions of the described subject, allowing for the fact that "does not seem like" asserts more confidence than "not sure", which suggests more overall ambivalence. So to continue this semantic debate, please posit your theory contradicting my hypothesis that these two phrases are substantially the same in meaning based on the currently applied context.
As to the inherent danger, you specifically say,
You're right, the OP does not explicitly say that subject was dangerous. In my initial reading, it seemed like the OP was being overly critical but upon further consideration I have decided not to equivocate any longer! No more "unsure", no more "does not seem likely". I will take a stand!
The subject in question was being fooling. Being foolish with a firearm is dangerous. Ergo, the "gang-banger" was being dangerous! [Flourish of horns and cheers follows here...]
I would argue that someone whose stance is so improper as to cause them to fall over with their trigger on the finger is being dangerous. Do you disagree? Is this a stance you practice? To be clear, the subject did not fall over. But the potential for him to fall over existed and he was utilizing a very poor stance that could not provide secure control of his firearm.
For hypothetical consideration: If you place a loaded gun on the kitchen table in front of a 5 year old and leave the room, is this dangerous? Even if the kid has not touched the gun before you left the room? (Answer: most certainly and without a doubt YES)
The point being that something or someone can go from foolish to dangerous and/or deadly in a split second which is why gun safety (or defensive driving or safety with tools, ladders, knives, swimming pools, etc.) is so important. From now I consider anyone being foolish with a gun to be considered dangerous.
kaylorinhi
New member
We as, as those with skill, could also strike a conversation and attempt to mentor said individual in both shooting and life he might need it? your call but it is an option!
HK-Lance said:
Not many where I shoot, even if there's no girlfriend to impress.
I make it a general habit not to offer unsolicited advice. I shoot at an outdoors club pistol range (with a continuous bench, not indoors with partitions between firing points). So, other shooters will be members or their guests. I'll take the opportunity to introduce myself when the range is cold; but, I find a comment like, "Trying a new gun?" is a better ice breaker than, "What you're doing wrong is…" On the skeet field (where one shoots while the others watch), a frustrated shooter may ask, "Why'd I miss that one?"; but, he'd better be ready for four different answers.
Cheapshooter
New member
Gang banger or wanna be, makes no difference. Poor attitude, no respect for others, and no sense of responsibility! If it walks like a duck etc!!!
retiredcoasty
New member
Did the guy have the right to be there? Yes.
Could the OP determine he was a gang banger? Yes, having been around many gang bangers myself, I know that one can intelligently estimate whether someone is a gang banger or not. The OP failed to use his politically correct keyboard when making the post. Personally, I view that as a good thing. Political correctness is destroying this nation. If the OP said he was probably a gang banger; that is good enough for me. I will take it at face value.
Other than being a fool with his ammo, the guy was not being dangerous. His bullets were travelling in the right direction; they just rarely hit their target. I probably would have sat back, pretended that I was working on a firearm and watched the guy waste his money. And when he was done, I’d go back to shooting. That way I would be safer than I would be standing next to him. And, if I saw him getting dangerous, I could leave without embarrassing the gang banger in front of his woman.
Could the OP determine he was a gang banger? Yes, having been around many gang bangers myself, I know that one can intelligently estimate whether someone is a gang banger or not. The OP failed to use his politically correct keyboard when making the post. Personally, I view that as a good thing. Political correctness is destroying this nation. If the OP said he was probably a gang banger; that is good enough for me. I will take it at face value.
Other than being a fool with his ammo, the guy was not being dangerous. His bullets were travelling in the right direction; they just rarely hit their target. I probably would have sat back, pretended that I was working on a firearm and watched the guy waste his money. And when he was done, I’d go back to shooting. That way I would be safer than I would be standing next to him. And, if I saw him getting dangerous, I could leave without embarrassing the gang banger in front of his woman.
...however, many youngsters dress the part, yet these same youths are not actually thugs or gang-bangers. Not even remotely. So "estimations" are just that...guesses.
In my experience, certain tattoos are more indicative of gang affiliation than are clothes...or shooting styles.
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