Pressure Trace

LOL, I got ya now. Yes, I have been in contact with a guy who's name starts with a T over at Buffalo Bore ;-)

I will try the HY manufacture and see if they will give me a hint as to the pressure of their cowboy loads which I would expect to be in the 5,000psi-7,000psi range. Cowboy loads are lightly loaded and won't even reliably register on the pressuretrace when using a 1 1/4" dia barrel ;-). I may have the barrel turned down later and have it fitted to my Stevens shotgun frame.

The 44-40 is a low pressure cartridge, it has a SAAMI max psi of 11,000 and an equal SAAMI max CUP of 13,000 as well as a C.I.P. max of 15,954psi (French CIP). Many publish loads reference mistakenly lists psi rather than CUP.

What started me with this whole psi mess was the fact that Lyman list high pressure loads to only be used in Group II rifles such as the Marlin 1894 and the Winchester 92 and 94. Lyman lists a heavy load of up to 21,900CUP. I have tested that load and my load result from that 21,900 CUP load is 19,628psi. No load I have ever loaded, before Pressuretrace, has even been higher. All of my Reloder 7 loads are less than 13,500psi and fall well inside Lyman's 21,900 CUP range. Even John Taffin's 2005 Guns Magazine load I tested was 14,000psi

Of course, we all know everyone's mileage may very and these figures are only being used for discussion purposes!!
 
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Be careful with that Reloder 7--in my dottering old age I once grabbed my 8 pounder of accurate 7 instead of the RL7--they both have big 7's on their label. Imagine my surprise when I pulled the trigger on my rifle igniting over 300,000 psi and blowing up my rifle!:eek:

If you're going to use the BB ammo's baseline for calibration--seems a little counterintuitive since that's the ammo you seem concerned about being "redline" at the top of the pressure range.:confused:
 
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What started me with this whole psi mess was the fact that Lyman list high pressure loads to only be used in Group II rifles such as the Marlin 1894 and the Winchester 92 and 94. Lyman lists a heavy load of up to 21,900CUP. I have tested that load and my load result from that 21,900 CUP load is 19,628psi. No load I have ever loaded, before Pressuretrace, has even been higher. All of my Reloder 7 loads are less than 13,500psi and fall well inside Lyman's 21,900 CUP range. Even John Taffin's 2005 Guns Magazine load I tested was 14,000psi

Of course, we all know everyone's mileage may very and these figures are only being used for discussion purposes!!
Ahhh--you got the actual spreadsheet for the calibrations from Jim? That stuff is above my pay grade--though I believe the RSI software has a facility for making similar adjustments. It's apparent that accounting for things like case expansion in the chamber and metal/steel elasticity/conductivitity come into play. I don't mess with that stuff since I'm more likely to screw things up not knowing what I'm doing.:rolleyes:
 
If you're going to use the BB ammo's baseline for calibration--seems a little counterintuitive since that's the ammo you seem concerned about being "redline" at the top of the pressure range.

Not at all, that is exactly what I am looking for. Jim said to use a known pressure to calibrate the Pressuretrace II. As you already know. manufactures as well as handloading manuals use a certain safety % and are not a realistic "known pressure" thus only a close estimate. BB is closer to a realistic known pressure. I can't use a load manual because their results are in CUP, not psi. However, if a manual lists a load that produces 13,000CUP, I can sub 11,000psi since SAAMI list it as equal. Thus published 13,000cup loads are actually resulting in lower pressures. If those manual loads, as well as "other" manufactures, are used as a "control", then Buffalo Bore's loads are well over SAAMI max pressures, of which they claim are not.

Ahhh--you got the actual spreadsheet for the calibrations from Jim?
Yes, it tells me how much I need to turn down my barrel in order to lower the sensitivity level to accurately read lower pressure results....if I understood him correctly. The "Cowboy" loads are so low..including Hornady's, "interference noise" hinders actual pressure results.
 
Yes, it tells me how much I need to turn down my barrel in order to lower the sensitivity level to accurately read lower pressure results....if I understood him correctly. The "Cowboy" loads are so low..including Hornady's, "interference noise" hinders actual pressure results.
I don't envy you--you are operating in a "tight window" with lots of variables potentially affecting the trace deviation. It might be worth your while to explore just how BB verified their pressure ratings--if they are willing to divulge that information. At the end of the day my guess is that they are pretty careful since they have established a market niche for "hotter than usual" ammo like Underwood has.
 
It might be worth your while to explore just how BB verified their pressure ratings
;-)

After I installed my strain gauge, opened up the software and entered my measurement information, I only had to "correct" to -1,300psi to get my base loads.

If I had left it alone with no correction, Lyman's max load for a group I load would have been 11,087psi. So between that load and BB's load, I feel confident.

Attaching the strain gauge was a royal pain in the foot!
 
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;-)

After I installed my strain gauge, opened up the software and entered my measurement information, I only had to "correct" to -1,300psi to get my base loads.

Attaching the strain gauge was a royal pain in the foot!
Worse than getting it properly aligned under a barrel nut on an AR? That's hard for me to believe.:D:rolleyes:
 
Hounddog

I think for most it is used on a particular firearm to test how that firearm reacts to certain loads. A user can check for many things and actually improve accuracy, make the firearm as proficient as possible with the information processed. Especially those that shoot Wildcat loads.

For me, I am just looking for basic chamber pressures. All of my firearms have octagon barrels which can not use the trace program. Plus I only shoot out to 100 yards. So for me, I just purchased a barrel and built my own platform. My barrel was $75. Platform was built from scratch material and the stand is a Hyskore I used with other firearms.

Those guys that shoot competition and out to 300 yards, it could certainly cut costs in looking for that sweet load.

Videos

https://youtu.be/UN6undl4ZgI
https://youtu.be/6CiUFqhsFcg
https://youtu.be/TfH0ETSpnIA

 
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I can see where a wildcatter might find it useful with the right test barrel setup but other than that I don't see any benefit for the average shooter/reloader. Also from the comments in this thread the data it provides would be questionable at best. Erroneous data could be worse than no data when using it to find maximum safe pressures in my opinion. A false sense of security has led to many an accident
 
Anyone interested in the Pressure Trace instrument should read this article:https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Instrumenting%20your%20rifle.pdf. It will get your feet wet on what is and isn't possible to determine about pressures.

Jack,

First, housekeeping (and I am hoping this solves other people's problems in this area):

HOW TO MAKE A WORKING LINK (Windows)

Go to a page you want to link to in your browser and select and copy the content of the address bar at the top. Alternately, go to a working link, as to a YouTube video link, and right-click on it and from the flyout menu select to copy the link location. Back in the composition window you are trying to put the link into, you can paste the link text in and then select it and then click on the globe and infinity icon at the top of the composition window. This the place to place your link. It has "http://" already there for someone typing a link in manually. Delete that or select it so it will be overwritten, then paste your original link, still in your clipboard, into that and then click on "OK". DO NOT paste the text into your composition window and later copy it from your composition window, as the system sometimes truncates that text version. Also, you can skip the first step of pasting the link as text if you instead want to have other text in your composition contain the link. For example, you could write "You can see what I am describing on this video" and then select the words "this video" and then click on the link icon and paste in your URL. This will make the words "this video" turn into blue highlighting and clicking on them will then take you to the video.


On 44-40 pressures, SAAMI barrels have minimum chambers and nominal bore dimensions. To mimic one, you have to get a barrel blank made to their bore cross-sectional area dimensions and then chamber it with a special reamer ground to produce the SAAMI minimum chamber diameters and not run it in past half a thousandth beyond what produces SAAMI minimum headspace. That's ±¼ of a thousandth, which can take some skill to do. Standard reamers are commonly made a little wider so they can be resharpened without losing dimensional precision. I don't know if you followed these practices with your test barrel or not, but as Denton Bramwell points out in the article I linked to, most chambers made with standard reamers can expect to produce lower numbers.

SAAMI test barrels are fired with the cartridge manipulated to ensure the powder has fallen back over the flash hole. They are not tapped against anything to do this, as that packs the powder which can lower its burn rate a little. They want worst case highest pressure, so they just turn the case around to let the powder fall back to the rear, then load it carefully so as to avoid shifting the powder position. If you don't do that, you will get lower numbers than they do.

For rifle cartridges, SAAMI expects no more than 4% standard deviation in pressure. If your readings produce a higher SD than that, you are probably using a sample too small to be relied on to produce a good SD number. SAAMI uses ten rounds. Our own board member, Statshooter, who is a professor of statistics, says 30 rounds are needed. Denton Bramwell feels 15 rounds give him what he needs to know. So, why does SAAMI just use 10? They accept the SD results produced by 10 can be off on the high side by two standard errors (about another 2.5%), so they have a second number in addition to the MAP called the Maximum Probable Lot Mean, or MPLM, that allows the next sample of 10 from the same lot could produce a standard deviation that was different by that much. So, while the MAP is 11,000 psi, they allow they might get an average as high as 11,300 psi from another random sample of 10 from the same lot, and that is acceptable. They have a still higher number, called the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) that allows that bullet bonding with the case and other factors can produce an increase in pressure as a lot of ammunition ages, and for the 44-40 that number is 11,700 psi. So, in effect, they are saying 11,700 psi is the safe limit, but, wait, there's more: All those numbers, the MAP, the MPLM, and the MPSM are averages produced by 10 round samples. The individual rounds making up that average will go above and below that average. SAAMI controls that by allowing what they call the Maximum Extreme Variation (MEV) which is the maximum spread between pressure readings for any of the 10 rounds in any sample taken at any time in the life of the lot. For the 44-40, the MEV is 2300 psi (this has to be calculated per the standard's instructions; it is not in a table). Theoretically, you could have aged loads centered on 11,700 psi whose 10 shots had one round as high as 13770 psi that would still be acceptable to SAAMI (though it is extremely improbable as it requires all 9 other shots to be exactly 11,470 psi). Mostly, though, you don't see individual rounds more than about ten percent above the MAP.

Even with all of that care, the fact is the absolute pressures are not exactly knowable. SAAMI reference cartridges are made in lots that are sent around to member's test facilities every two years to watch for reading changes. The members use SAAMI standard calibration methods (see the SAAMI standard) and report their results for both pressure and velocity from SAAMI standard test barrels. Interestingly, these vary more than the SAAMI standard deviation limit. The old 1992 standard gave an example for each method firing the same lots of reference loads, and the copper crushers, using targe tables for calibration, produced over 23% difference in average pressure for 10 shots among 9 labs. The transducers, using hydraulic pressure for calibration, produced over 11% difference in 10-shot averages among 7 labs. The reported results for each set of tests from each lab were, in turn, averaged and the final average was declared to be the pressure value that reference lot produced. This way, in effect, the reference lot pressure in the example was evaluated by looking at 90 and 70 total sample shots for the crusher and transducer, respectively. It compensates for average measurement calibration and operation errors, combined, to give a practical expected correct reading.

That approach may seem a bit tenuous, but understand the objective is to get everyone producing ammunition to the same standard, even if its absolute accuracy is not perfect. When a manufacturer wants to load a million rounds in a particular chambering, he buys a sample of a current lot of reference ammunition for that chambering and fires it in his own test equipment and compares his results to its agreed-upon rated pressure. This gives him a calibration factor for correcting his equipment's output to match the average output produced by the rest of the test labs that measured the lot. In the end, he doesn't load to the raw pressure readings his equipment provides, but to pressure readings corrected by what the reference load told him was his equipment's error factor.

So, if you wanted to compare your strain gauge results to commercial equipment, you would ideally get some SAAMI reference ammunition to calibrate to. Unfortunately, reference ammunition is only sold to ammunition makers or others who can show a real need to have it. Otherwise, I think, they fear a run on it would occur that could interfere with the industry.

One thing you could do is ask Buffalo Bore if they use the SAAMI reference ammunition and, assuming they do, you could probably ask them what their calibrated reading was for their most recent lot. You would still have to condition it in the same temperature it was conditioned and tested in by Buffalo Bore and handle the cartridges to keep powder to the rear, but you could get a correction factor to multiply your strain gauge factor by through shooting it and claim to match their pressure fairly closely. That sort of secondary standard approach is probably as close to absolute as amateur equipment can be made to be.

I notice all Hodgdon's psi-rated loads for the 44-40 exceed the SAAMI MAP, while their CUP-rated loads (in their pistol section) do not. Makes me wonder if someone confused the digits? It's still below the CIP's pressures, but those are measured on a different style of transducer (a channel transducer).

Regarding CUP ratings in manuals, while the correlation between CUP and psi is too poor for reliably converting one unit to the other over a range of chamberings, within a single chambering the conversion by the ratio of the CUP and psi maps within the SAAMI system is going to be close enough for practical work. That is, 11000 psi divided by 13000 CUP is 0.846 psi/CUP for the 44-40, so you can take the CUP numbers in the Lyman Manual and multiply them by 0.846 to get a reasonable expectation of psi. Conversely, dividing psi by that same number will come close to CUP.
 
Do you really understand it? How would it benefit a Wildcat user and no one else?

I only care about three things when I develop a load

  • saftey - are there pressure signs
  • accuracy - does it group well
  • precision - does it group well at all ranges consistently

reloading manuals combined with online resources and a visual inspection of fired cases tell me all I need to know on the first, the second only needs my Mark1 Mod 1 eyeballs and glasses, the third uses the eyes also and a chrono to see if the velocities are flat. I fail to see how a piece of equipment that gives me a number representing pressure which may or may not be accurate would help.

Now can you explain why I need one when I have been getting great groups at all ranges without one and how it would improve my life in any way?
 
Cartridge pressure instrumentation's main value lies is in producing loads for shooting across multiple platforms, so if you are developing loads for guns that includes some antiques, as Savvy Jack is, or loads for sale, as Buffalo Bore is, then it is of value. Otherwise, knowing a peak pressure is mainly for comparative purposes. Out of two equally performing loads (on targets), the one with higher peak pressure will wear your throat out faster, for example. Of more concern to me is identifying bullet and powder combinations that produce a reflected secondary spike from blowing unburned powder and gas into the base of a bullet that can't get out of the way in time. It happens when the powder is too slow for the bullet weight and the bullet scoots forward expanding the volume behind it faster than the powder starts out making gas. Example of a normal trace and one with the bullet rear-ending phenomenon are below. While I can sort of guess what combinations to stay away from, this is the only way to prove it. That said, neither the comparison nor the collision indication requires absolute accuracy of the pressure reading; just that the loads be fired in the same gun with the same strain gauge.

Reproduced with verbal permission from Jim Ristowe at RSI.

Normal trace:

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Powder too slow for the bullet weight. The collisions here can ring barrels and Texas gunsmith Charlie Sisk has been able to repeatedly blow muzzles off 338's with them.

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Jack,

Glad to help. I thought maybe that last conversion would be useful to you.
 
Thanks Uncle Nick, that pretty much answered my question. For the type of loading I do I would see no benefits since I use book loads in modern rifles

can always find out something new here, gotta love it
 
Some book loads will kick up the spikes, too. The problem is that to let handloaders use as many powders as possible, hoping to include what they have on hand, they include some that are really too slow. Watch out for combinations of high charge weight with a low maximum load pressure. If you stick to the powders that have the highest listed maximum pressures in Hodgdon or Lyman loads, you are working with the most consistent burners and those or the faster powders (lighter maximum charge weights) are unlikely to produce the problem with the bullet weight listed.

One of the funny things is that because the pressure spike doesn't actually occur in the chamber, but in a very short space right behind the bullet part way down the tube, copper crushers and transducers don't see them. The strain gauge picks them up because the event expands the steel above it and that spreads out along the barrel until it reaches the strain gauge and expands the steel under it. So even when a commercial loader builds such a load, as Winchester did in that second plot, above, they are unaware of it using SAAMI standard gear.

Hornady now uses strain gauges, so they should see them and for that reason I expect the loads in their current databook to be OK, making it another place you can check if a powder is OK to use with a bullet weight.
 
Hey unclenick--thanks for the clarifications--I remember those traces from Jim's site-- as I recall he used a 30 06 trace from a very well known manufacturer as the example for the secondary spike recorded. Since the gauge is intended to measure material expansion at the chamber proximity--is it fair to say that the pressure spike might be significantly higher than what the trace indicates? In the dim recesses of my scrambled mind I also recall having a discussion with Jim about a "P pulse" wave phenomenon upon ignition--a pulse wave that goes down the barrel to the muzzle and back again to the chamber as the bullet leaves the chamber.:confused:

It's been a while since I've hooked up my system--I've been trying to get ready for hunting and also spending (too) much time trying to figure out the 224 valk thing.I need to review and refresh my memory.

I once had a powder that had sat on my shelf for a while (and was actually already a pretty old lot when purchased on-line) produce pressure warning signs in the handloads I had fired that were well within charge weights listed in the reload manual. I erroneously assumed that in general when a powder degrades --among other things the powder efficacy degrades. I called the powder manufacturer about this--and was told for the particular powder I was using that in fact that energy yield could go up upon ignition as a result of degradation for the particular powder.
 
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I have heard nothing but good things about Pressuretrace II for the past ten years. I just never had the confidence that I could use it. The main reason I never got one was that I could not find/read enough information about it to gain the confidence to use it. I did purchase my MGM barrel some five-six years ago, built the platform but just finished it last year. After that was a success, I decided to take the plunge and I am glad I did. I sent my first few charts to Jim and he talked me through them. I am happy with what I have for what I need it for.

After talking with Jim and now seeing Unclenicks replies here, I now have 100% confidence in the program but I still have a lot to learn and a lot of work to do. I wish I could resolve my "noise" issue but I may have to purchase some more strain gauges. What I have is good enough for what I need. I am going to go ahead and share this one chart on this forum. Jim is aware of the charts I shared on my web site.

This chart shows the result from Lee's and Alliant's old Reloder 7 data, Alliant no longer publishes. Lee has or had this load on their 44-40 three die pamphlet. A quick phone conversation with an Alliant Rep gave me the answer I needed. What the information did not call for was what type of bullet, they only listed a 240gr lead bullet. I used Acme's 240gr SWC. I have experimented with different primers and the amount of crimp pressure, neck resize and even no resizing. I have used Remingon 2 1/2's. I have had issues with Winchester WLP's so I used CCI-300's this time with a hard crimp.

I have tested 28 loads so far of various bullets and powders and other components.

240gr SWC, Reloder 7... 1,284fps from a 24" barrel (Marlin 1894CB)
This is a photobucket image link, I hope it works.

Edited: Posted with permission from Jim Ristow
7a49791b-4fba-49c2-b06a-15c3f89324b1-original.jpg
 
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