Practical question about concealed carry

O

OhioGuy

New member
Hi, I'm new to all this...will take a CCW class hopefully in September or October.

I have a few practical questions for you carriers here (and hopefully this is an appropriate forum for it).

Now, I fully realize that disaster can strike anywhere, any time, and that "safe" suburban areas where I mostly live, work and play are prime targets for crime precisely because we don't expect it to happen. But statistically, at least, I spend the majority of my time in areas that have had nothing more dramatic than petty theft off a store shelf. (I know, I know! Tell that to the people in San Bernardino or the CO movie theater, and it could happen in my local grocery store tomorrow afternoon, and I'm not arguing against that point).

Now here's my conundrum: most of the places where I would want to be protected, where crimes do happen much more frequently, where people are robbed or held up or assaulted on the streets, are in downtown areas--people walking to or from their parked cars are always prime targets. I occasionally visit places in downtown Dayton (performing arts theaters), Cincinnati (like the zoo, with my kids), Columbus, etc. I would want to be protected walking through areas known to be much higher risk.

But here's the deal. Every damn one of those destinations has a no-gun policy! So even with my CCW permit, I can carry from my car to the front door of where I'm trying to go...and...then what? I'm not interested in being just an armed escort for my family, although I suppose I could walk them there, then walk back to the car, disarm, then walk again *by myself* and be an even bigger target?

I also work in two different locations, neither of which will allow firearms on the premises (in one instance I can leave it in my car, in the other, I don't believe I can have a loaded firearm anywhere on the installation at all--it's a military base). So again, if I'm headed to work and can't even leave my CCW in the car, then I won't have it with me if I go anywhere else before or after work.

It just seems like a logistics nightmare. If the only places where I can realistically carry for defense, are the places where I'm least likely to ever encounter an emergency, then it all seems entirely upside down. :confused:

Your advice and experiences???
 
Yes, this is the fact for almost all of us and regrettably sometimes all we can do is conform to the rules which may mean leaving your gun at home. You didn’t mention if carrying into the entertainment venues is somehow illegal in Ohio or just against the venue’s policy. I generally carry into any place that I can legally carry per Federal/Georgia law if asked to leave I would obviously comply.
 
Well, now, that's something I don't clearly understand.

I've read Ohio's guide to CCW and it seems pretty clear that private businesses have the right to prohibit firearms from being brought onto their premises:

"Ohio law provides that a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of a parking lot or other parking facility is not guilty of criminal trespass, but is liable for a civil cause of action for trespass. Furthermore, a landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant with a concealed carry license from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on residential premises."

But this section is under the part talking about private employers, and the behavior of their employees. I can't quite find an unambiguous statement of what happens if you carry into a venue that prohibits it. I'm sure that will come up in the CCW class, and I can ask someone in a local gun store. At a minimum I'm sure I'd be "persona non grata" and could open myself up to a civil lawsuit.

Certainly it would seem disrespectful to the owners of the business. I may think their policy is misguided, but it's THEIR business. My choice would be to not visit or spend my money there. Maybe I'll start my own zoo that allows CCW (I do have three cats and occasionally ants in the house).

So in Georgia, if someone carries into a venue with a posted sign prohibiting firearms, is one in violation of the law or just of the venue's policy (and therefore needs to leave if asked)?
 
So in Georgia, if someone carries into a venue with a posted sign prohibiting firearms, is one in violation of the law or just of the venue's policy (and therefore needs to leave if asked)?
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It is not a violation of the law, but you can be asked to leave and if you do not comply that could become a violation for trespassing. For the most part I tend to comply with the owners wishes, but I also balance out what I believe to be personal safety. I don’t believe I should be restricted from visiting certain places simply because I choose to exercise a legal Constitutional right, but it’s important to understand the law. I might carry into the large private art gallery in mid-town Atlanta, but I better not carry into the gallery on the local college campus where guns are restricted.
 
Ohioguy said:
I've read Ohio's guide to CCW and it seems pretty clear that private businesses have the right to prohibit firearms from being brought onto their premises:

"Ohio law provides that a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of a parking lot or other parking facility is not guilty of criminal trespass, but is liable for a civil cause of action for trespass. Furthermore, a landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant with a concealed carry license from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on residential premises."

But this section is under the part talking about private employers, and the behavior of their employees. I can't quite find an unambiguous statement of what happens if you carry into a venue that prohibits it. I'm sure that will come up in the CCW class, and I can ask someone in a local gun store. At a minimum I'm sure I'd be "persona non grata" and could open myself up to a civil lawsuit.
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The section of statute you quoted doesn't address premises, it addresses parking lots.

What Barry Lee mentioned is something that you need to investigate in more depth. In some states, a posted "No guns" sign carries the force of law, and any violation of that is automatically a criminal offense. [In some states, such as Texas, the sign must meet specific criteria set forth in the law before this applies.] In other states, the sign is sort of "advisory," and you can disregard it but if the owner or his agent sees you and asks you to leave, you MUST then leave or it becomes a criminal trespass offense. I don't know which way the law works in Ohio, but that's what you need to find out.

Once you find out, you then have to decide how you wish to live your life. If ignoring the sign is not initially a criminal offense, most people who carry would probably choose to ignore the sign and hope they don't get "made." If ignoring the sign is a criminal offense, then you get to decide if entering that venue is worth becoming a criminal. This forum will not advocate breaking the law, and IMHO I don't care to support establishments that won't allow me to carry the means to defend myself. Yes, that limits my options of where I shop and where I go for entertainment. Life is all about choices.
 
I'm in a state where the owner can post the premises off limits to concealed carry. It's an administrative violation and carries no criminal consequence, unless you're asked to leave and refuse.

I'm a police officer, so it's of no consequence to me.

Anyway, it sounds like Ohio is basically the same. I will not advocate breaking the law, but here's my $.02.............

1) If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, no one will know you have it, therefore you shouldn't be found in violation.

2) If you would ever have a need to use a gun in one of those places, what are the consequences? Best case scenario, you are scolded for violating some administrative policy? Worst case scenario, you shoot someone that didn't need no shooting, in which case, the fact that you were prohibited will be the least of the issues, but a valid issue none the less.

3) If it's at your workplace, that may have consequences that only you can decide if you can handle.

My caveat to CCW folks, is just this......... If you're doing your part correctly, know one will know that they should be complaining about you having a gun. If you need the gun at some point, I doubt anyone will stand in line to complain.

It's not a problem until it's a problem.

For what it's worth..........
 
I would remind folks that TFL does not allow advocating breaking the law.

Such posts are removed. Repeated posts of such a nature can lead to having posting privileges suspended or removed.
 
If you would ever have a need to use a gun in one of those places, what are the consequences?
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There is a provision in my state for appealing loss of a cc permit due to being caught breaking one rule or other, including the posted sign and other non-allowed areas.

But as you say, if you save your life and/or the lives of others using your weapon in a prohibited area, I'd say that rises above the (silly in my book) rule about non-carry areas.

I wrestle with that decision often, but am leaning toward 100% carry.
 
In addition to the advice given, remember there are other types of weapons besides firearms.
The carry class you plan on attending will probably cover more about the legalities than survival.
Just a thought.
 
I also try to imagine other unintended consequences. The carrier may be 100% in the right, but still be looked at as guilty.

Let's say Joe Citizen carries into an opera house in his local area, where it's not a criminal offense to do so, but it violates the posted signage. He's breaking a policy but not a law. OK. Now he has an accidental "wardrobe malfunction" and somebody sees the handle of his CCW, yells "Gun!!!!" and 10 people are trampled on the stairs as everyone panics and thinks he's there to harm them.

A major NYC airport just had a mass stampede last week because some passenger, somewhere, thought he/she heard a gunshot and freaked out, and damn near the entire airport went into chaos over something that was never real.

I know several people who DO NOT KNOW that it's legal to carry a firearm at all, much less concealed. Heck, even if the wardrobe malfunction occurred in a grocery story where it was perfectly compliant with all policies, someone could freak out.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the risks vs. rewards of carrying. It would make very little sense to become proficient in self defense, only to never be able to carry in those places where I would actually fear that my safety could be at risk.
 
I suggest you still take the class.../ and train at least monthly ...to maintain your skill level --- for whenever you choose to carry...if you choose to carry ...or if you decide to never carry.

Personally, I would say you have no choice but to obey the postings of "no gun zones" and the requirements of your employer / if you choose to ignore them, the reality is you risk your financial assests, maybe your job or both....but to get a clear read on Ohio law you will need to consult an attorney in Ohio.

In my area, if a business posts a no gun policy - I obey it. There are risks everywhere...and I tend to stay away from areas that I think are high risk. I carry often - but not to the point where I let it control my life / or where I choose to go or not go. I have a lot of friends that disagree with me ...first thing they do is strap a gun on ...to go get the morning paper in the driveway --- and some of them ignore the businesses no gun policies / but I think its foolish.
 
I carry often - but not to the point where I let it control my life / or where I choose to go or not go.
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If I really wanted to prepared for everything, all the time, everywhere, I'd wear body armor under my daily clothes and probably a gas mask too.

So far as I know, neither requires a permit :D
 
The main purpose of the class is to cover exactly the questions you have asked. Take the class, whether you intend to carry regularly or not. It's money well spent.

In OHIO, any business can prohibit firearms with a sign placed in a conspicuous location at an entrance where it should be seen by anyone looking. If you ignore the sign, you can be charged with trespass.

If your company has a no firearms policy, and you violate it, they can fire you. If your company is also properly posted, you can be fire AND be charged with trespass.

I typically don't see many places posted any more. The exception, of course is government buildings. I try to avoid private places that post if at all possible. (had to disarm to enter Time Warner office)The one grocery used to be posted. They have since unposted after numerous complaints.

Ohio is an open carry state, so you need not fear accidental exposure. Sat in a local chicken restaurant a couple weeks ago, and a guy a couple tables over carried a 1911 on his belt. Nobody even paid attention. When you actually start looking for weapons on people, you realize how many of them are also carrying, and you become a lot less self conscious.

Yes, it sucks when you can't carry in some of the most unsafe places, but at least once you get the permit, you can carry in 95% of the other places, so you are way better off than you are now. Ohio is different than other states as far as carrying in vehicles, which you can only do with your permit. it's worth it for that alone.

Take the class, get your permit, and recheck your comfort level over time. Generally people start carrying in more gun friendly environments to gain a higher level of comfort. We refer to the CCW test drive as "the Walmart walk" because so many people try it out there first. I've never seen a posted Walmart in Ohio, but I've noticed a large percentage of "concealed" carriers.
 
Yes, it sucks when you can't carry in some of the most unsafe places, but at least once you get the permit, you can carry in 95% of the other places, so you are way better off than you are now. Ohio is different than other states as far as carrying in vehicles, which you can only do with your permit. it's worth it for that alone.

Take the class, get your permit, and recheck your comfort level over time. Generally people start carrying in more gun friendly environments to gain a higher level of comfort. We refer to the CCW test drive as "the Walmart walk" because so many people try it out there first. I've never seen a posted Walmart in Ohio, but I've noticed a large percentage of "concealed" carriers.
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Nothing would surprise me in a Walmart :p

There actually was a shooting in a Walmart somewhere in the last year near me--someone was walking around, talking angrily on his cell phone and swinging around what looked to everyone like a rifle. It turned out to be an air rifle, but it looked exactly like a real weapon. Of course having the weapon wasn't a violation because of open carry, but he ignored cops who were called in, and he was shot by police. I never did hear much more about that incident.

One practical issue (I'd imagine for many, many who work in federal/military locations) would be this: I don't always know my daily schedule and may have to leave to attend meetings at the base at any time. If nothing else I go there almost daily just to use the gym. I can't be dropping by my house to arm/disarm every time I need to make a quick trip.

I'm sure the CCW class can address that. But maybe (since it's federal) it's the same anywhere?

For instance, what counts as "having a firearm" there? Does it mean "no loaded firearm?" Or does it mean "you're going to prison even if your Glock is field stripped with no magazine and the pieces are all stored in separate, locked compartments of your car"?

I suppose I could just get a leather gun belt and start carrying a shiny Colt 45 on my hip everywhere I go. I kinda wonder what reactions I'd get!
 
I'm not sure your open carry comment was serious ...

but Open carry is a bad idea in my view....it causes too much anxiety for those around you .../ ... in my view "concealed" is the point...noone needs to know I'm carrying, they may suspect, but they can't see it...
 
I find it amusing that folks scream when they think their 2nd Amendment rights are being infringed upon, but yet in the next breath, suggest other folks infringe upon the rights of property owners by ignoring their wishes about no guns on the premises. Kinda the pot calling the kettle black. IMHO, claiming as long as you keep it concealed it's okay is no different than saying it's okay to cheat on your wife or steal from your employer....as long as you don't get caught.

In my state there are no real consequences for carrying past a "no guns" sign until and unless, you refuse to leave. Still, if I feel that threatened to enter a business that is posted with a "no gun" sign without my firearm, I turn around and walk away. Pretty simple.
 
Deciding to carry generally results in some life style changes, and reassessment of priorities. Much is a matter of personal choice, and nobody on this (or any) forum can or should make decisions about your life for you.

I can give you one real world example. About ten years ago my consulting business was in a slow period so I went looking for a part-time job. I quickly found one on the closing shift of a Barnes & Noble book store. I used to shop there frequently, and I knew the store (and the strip mall in which it's located) wasn't posted.

My first day of work was a Monday. Two other new hires started the same day, so we spent the first couple of hours in an orientation briefing. As part of that, we were handed an employee manual and told to take it home, read it, sign the acknowledgement page, and bring that in the next morning. When I read the manual, I found a "no guns allowed on the premises" policy -- applicable to employees, but not to customers.

This particular store was in a mall at the edge of a seedy area of town. It had periodic problems with drunks and druggies. The Barnes & Noble stayed open an hour later than any other business in the mall. They wanted me to work the closing shift. I took the manager aside and explained that I am a permit holder, that I carry for personal protection, and that I wanted to be armed when leaving the store to go to my car. I told her I'd be willing to lock the gun in my employee locker during my shift, but I didn't want to be unarmed when leaving at night.

She took my request up the chain, and on Wednesday she informed me that there would be no exception to the policy. On Thursday I handed in my resignation letter, and Friday was my last day.

As John Wayne is reputed to have said, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do." Your perception of what you gotta do is likely different from my perception of what I gotta do.
 
You might also find that you can spend your hard earned dollars just as easily and enjoyably at places that respect your civil rights..

My wife and I have been overheard turning around at a 'no gun' sign talking loudly about how we won'the shop here since it seems too dangerous. ;)

Larry
 
I suggest you take the class and get your ccw. Plenty o f places you can carry. Second, get a bolted down lock box of some sort for your vehicle. Third, every time you see a sign, ask, in writing for the owners to change their policy. You won't have much luck with the chain stores, but mom an d pops are a different story.
 
OP, welcome to The World of CC. The problems you've noted are the same issues with which that just about everyone who CCs has to wrestle. You'll need to ask questions about this in your CC class. I'd suggest taking a look at www.handgunlaw.us for more information on specific OH law.

I also work in a place where I can't CC. And I work downtown, where we have a consistent population of homeless people and other possible problems. My solution has been to buy a small safe for the car. Nothing fancy, but it has a steel cable that allows me to attach it to the car. I holster up in the morning, but when I get to work, the gun goes in the safe until I leave. So the gun is locked in the safe, and the safe is both hidden from view and locked in the car. As little as I like leaving a gun in the car (& I'm aware of all of the various objections), I like driving to and from work every day even less.
 
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