ok, so from all this I'm getting that some folks buy a 38 over its 357 counterpart because for some 2-3 ounces is huge; but for most its the cost of the gun itself. mind you (and some still don't get this) this is not about the cartridge but the guns, one being restricted and the other versatile.
practical purpose for .38 spl guns gone....
- Thread starter JERRYS.
- Start date
Imo, the biggest reason to buy a .357 is it's better for resale since "it's so versatile."
Not so suggest many take advantage of the versatility, but it does help when selling, especially when revolvers aren't very popular compared to semi-autos.
I think (no stats) that most revolver sales fall into two categories; 1) snubs for SD, 2) the big hand cannon for moose, UFO's, etc.
Not so suggest many take advantage of the versatility, but it does help when selling, especially when revolvers aren't very popular compared to semi-autos.
I think (no stats) that most revolver sales fall into two categories; 1) snubs for SD, 2) the big hand cannon for moose, UFO's, etc.
About the only 38 Special guns that are new made are snubby revolvers. Or you can buy the very expensive S&W model 10s or Taurus made guns both with 4" barrels.
For some you can't give them a gun made by Taurus and others who want a S&W they would rather have the older guns they consider to be of better quality without the MIM parts.
But there is still a demand for a 38 in other than short barreled configuration. If you don't beleive it just go to gunbroker and look at the prices of model 10s, model 15s and model 14 target guns with 6" barrels. All in 38 special only.
I would like a good clean model 10 but I don't want the heavy barrel version and don't want to pay $400+ for a gun that used to be priced less than $200 a few years ago. Even a new Taurus 38 is over $400.
For some you can't give them a gun made by Taurus and others who want a S&W they would rather have the older guns they consider to be of better quality without the MIM parts.
But there is still a demand for a 38 in other than short barreled configuration. If you don't beleive it just go to gunbroker and look at the prices of model 10s, model 15s and model 14 target guns with 6" barrels. All in 38 special only.
I would like a good clean model 10 but I don't want the heavy barrel version and don't want to pay $400+ for a gun that used to be priced less than $200 a few years ago. Even a new Taurus 38 is over $400.
so if you're buying more guns, the extra cost of the 357 isn't an issue for you.
That's not how I'd put it. Some folks are in fact looking for a 38 Special revolver. There aren't that many new ones available from S&W, and the new ones usually have a barrel sleeve and key lock, features that some folks don't like. S&W's current lineup is rather limited.
Also, some of those older models don't have modern versions, like a 2" model 10 or 12, and a 6" or 8-3/8" model 14. And some models are classics, like the 4" model 15. The only way to get one is to find a used one.
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Maybe you're right. Maybe its just me. But I look at those guns all the time and have several on my watch list on GB right now. I just can't afford a new gun right now.
But I am a straight up fan of the 38 Special and I look at and shop for those guns because of the round they fire. I feel the same way about the 32 long and 32 mag. I have several thousand once fired 38 cases and a couple of thousand rounds loaded for 38. I have the most bullet molds and bullets cast up and ready to load for the 38.
I bid on model 14's ever so often when I see one I like and think is worth the price and it always gets bid high enough I stop bidding on it. So I am not the only one who likes them. I will eventually find one I can justify the price on and buy it. Just like I did with the S&W model 631 I wanted for so many years but wouldn't pay the $900+ most were asking. I finally found one for $675 shipped on the S&W forum.
stinkeypete
New member
I think we are talking about the same thing:
For the same price, I would select a 4” gp 100 in .357 magnum over the same gun chambered .38 special.
In the 3” lightweight LCRX, the only reason I would pay $100 more for the .357 magnum version would be in expectation that the resale value would be higher as the general bubba has no idea how wicked .357 magnum recoil would be in a 14oz revolver, or maybe some argument that I already had a bucket of nice .357 magnum brass. Me... I would buy that gun with the expectation of it becoming something like a favorite pocket knife and reselling it would not be in the equation. I wouldn’t shed a tear for .38 special only.
Taking it down to a 2” barrel, I’d save the $100 because... just because. Come on.. it’s a huge fireball. But bubba at the gun shop is going to buy the micro cannon, take it to the quarry and hurt his paw shooting at the old rusty refrigerator, spook himself, brag to his friends about it, and when the swelling and his ego die down, he’ll trade it for a 9mm Glock at a huge loss. I bet gun stores see this every day.
Some of us love the history and traditions of a cartridge and many people talk much but shoot little.
I can recall a winter shooting indoors, using my .22. I was shooting 10 meter air pistol targets at 15 yards. That was about the best I could come up with for the 15 yard indoor range.
A nice fella was shooting his .40 caliber at the nra human target at 5 yards. He kept a few in the body but was having fun shaking the rafters and flinching. He tapped me on the shoulder.
“Hey.. if you need a target, I can give you a few”
“Oh thanks, I am shooting at a target. I have a couple taped to the cardboard hanger”
He peers down the lane. “What? Where?”
So I hit the switch and pull back the targets. I was in practice then, so all 10 were in the black. It’s about the size of a tea saucer. “See?” I tug one off and hand it to him.
He just holds it, looking at the target.
“Did you just shoot that? Way down there?”
“Yah”
“You could shoot someone in the face all day with that little thing!”
My target gun is a little TT Olympia with a red dot on it.
“Or a squirrel.”
“But but but.... most of the holes are touching!”
“You should come to pistol league at the outdoor range. It’s fun. We shoot at bigger targets but at 50 yards.”
“But but but... that’s just because it’s a .22...”
Tape up new targets, spin em back down range. Punch a big ragged hole with 5 .45acp wadcutters.
“It will really improve your shooting”
Back when I was 35 years old, I was a pretty good shot. I can still do okay... but I used to be pretty good and practiced two or three days a week. I am getting back to it but I can really tell my eyes got old.
That guy bought a Glock .40 and was having fun, but I contend it was too much gun for where he was at.
.357 in a belly gun is too much gun for anyone. Even those that can control it will be faster and better with a reduced load that produces far less recoil and muzzle blast without reducing power factor much at all. The extra powder is just making extra thunder and lightning for a pill going practically the same velocity in .38.
But... I hate how our sport has gone... it’s all about the marketing now.
Perfect example... 32 Long. Lead round nose. Police carried those back in the day. “Underpowered”? Don’t do something stupid like stand in front of one. It’s a cartridge with a rich history, like the .38.
.357 magnum. Other than Skeeter, who carries a .357? If you are old you’ll say “Dick Tracey”. Cool.
For the same price, I would select a 4” gp 100 in .357 magnum over the same gun chambered .38 special.
In the 3” lightweight LCRX, the only reason I would pay $100 more for the .357 magnum version would be in expectation that the resale value would be higher as the general bubba has no idea how wicked .357 magnum recoil would be in a 14oz revolver, or maybe some argument that I already had a bucket of nice .357 magnum brass. Me... I would buy that gun with the expectation of it becoming something like a favorite pocket knife and reselling it would not be in the equation. I wouldn’t shed a tear for .38 special only.
Taking it down to a 2” barrel, I’d save the $100 because... just because. Come on.. it’s a huge fireball. But bubba at the gun shop is going to buy the micro cannon, take it to the quarry and hurt his paw shooting at the old rusty refrigerator, spook himself, brag to his friends about it, and when the swelling and his ego die down, he’ll trade it for a 9mm Glock at a huge loss. I bet gun stores see this every day.
Some of us love the history and traditions of a cartridge and many people talk much but shoot little.
I can recall a winter shooting indoors, using my .22. I was shooting 10 meter air pistol targets at 15 yards. That was about the best I could come up with for the 15 yard indoor range.
A nice fella was shooting his .40 caliber at the nra human target at 5 yards. He kept a few in the body but was having fun shaking the rafters and flinching. He tapped me on the shoulder.
“Hey.. if you need a target, I can give you a few”
“Oh thanks, I am shooting at a target. I have a couple taped to the cardboard hanger”
He peers down the lane. “What? Where?”
So I hit the switch and pull back the targets. I was in practice then, so all 10 were in the black. It’s about the size of a tea saucer. “See?” I tug one off and hand it to him.
He just holds it, looking at the target.
“Did you just shoot that? Way down there?”
“Yah”
“You could shoot someone in the face all day with that little thing!”
My target gun is a little TT Olympia with a red dot on it.
“Or a squirrel.”
“But but but.... most of the holes are touching!”
“You should come to pistol league at the outdoor range. It’s fun. We shoot at bigger targets but at 50 yards.”
“But but but... that’s just because it’s a .22...”
Tape up new targets, spin em back down range. Punch a big ragged hole with 5 .45acp wadcutters.
“It will really improve your shooting”
Back when I was 35 years old, I was a pretty good shot. I can still do okay... but I used to be pretty good and practiced two or three days a week. I am getting back to it but I can really tell my eyes got old.
That guy bought a Glock .40 and was having fun, but I contend it was too much gun for where he was at.
.357 in a belly gun is too much gun for anyone. Even those that can control it will be faster and better with a reduced load that produces far less recoil and muzzle blast without reducing power factor much at all. The extra powder is just making extra thunder and lightning for a pill going practically the same velocity in .38.
But... I hate how our sport has gone... it’s all about the marketing now.
Perfect example... 32 Long. Lead round nose. Police carried those back in the day. “Underpowered”? Don’t do something stupid like stand in front of one. It’s a cartridge with a rich history, like the .38.
.357 magnum. Other than Skeeter, who carries a .357? If you are old you’ll say “Dick Tracey”. Cool.
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That just doesn't make sense. The model number DEFINES the caliber in which it's chambered.
stinkeypete
New member
Hahaha! Like a Glock 22?
The answer to the OP's original question can be gleaned from simply looking at the .38 Special revolvers currently made and the prices being asked for them.
In Ruger's line, the only .38 Special-only gun currently cataloged is the LCR. While the LCR is available in .357 Magnum, the .38 Special version is both roughly 10% lighter and, more importantly, substantially less expensive (MSRP is $90 less for the .38-only version). Of all Ruger's other DA revolvers, which all have steel frames, no .38 Special-only version is cataloged.
S&W makes a wider variety of revolvers than Ruger, but we can still explain some of the reason for .38-only revolvers. The most popular revolvers S&W makes are their J-Frame snubs and the .38-only airweights are the best sellers. While S&W does make .357 Magnum revolvers as light, or lighter than the .38 airweights, they all use scandium or titanium alloy and are much, much more expensive (up to double the price of a .38 airweight). The only steel-frame .38 J-Frame cataloged is the Model 36 which is part of the Classic Line and is marketed as much to collectors as to those looking for a defensive revolver (the older M36 was only ever offered in .38 Special).
Unlike Ruger, S&W does still offer a few of their larger steel-frame guns in .38 Special only. These include the stainless Models 64 and 67 and the blued or nickel Model 10. I suspect that the M64 and M67 are still offered to cater to Prisons, Private Security Firms, and the few small police agencies that still want their officers to carry a revolver, but are uncomfortable with the more powerful .357 Magnum cartridge. The Model 10 is, like the M36, part of the classic series and offered for the same reasons.
So, for the private individual looking for a medium-frame revolver, there really isn't much reason to buy a new one in .38 Special unless it's for the nostalgia of a classic model. If you're looking for a small-frame revolver, however, a .38 can be had substantially lighter and/or cheaper than a comparable .357. If you're looking at used guns, a .38 can often be had for much less than a comparable .357 Magnum and there are certain models and configurations available in .38 that may have never been offered in .357.
In Ruger's line, the only .38 Special-only gun currently cataloged is the LCR. While the LCR is available in .357 Magnum, the .38 Special version is both roughly 10% lighter and, more importantly, substantially less expensive (MSRP is $90 less for the .38-only version). Of all Ruger's other DA revolvers, which all have steel frames, no .38 Special-only version is cataloged.
S&W makes a wider variety of revolvers than Ruger, but we can still explain some of the reason for .38-only revolvers. The most popular revolvers S&W makes are their J-Frame snubs and the .38-only airweights are the best sellers. While S&W does make .357 Magnum revolvers as light, or lighter than the .38 airweights, they all use scandium or titanium alloy and are much, much more expensive (up to double the price of a .38 airweight). The only steel-frame .38 J-Frame cataloged is the Model 36 which is part of the Classic Line and is marketed as much to collectors as to those looking for a defensive revolver (the older M36 was only ever offered in .38 Special).
Unlike Ruger, S&W does still offer a few of their larger steel-frame guns in .38 Special only. These include the stainless Models 64 and 67 and the blued or nickel Model 10. I suspect that the M64 and M67 are still offered to cater to Prisons, Private Security Firms, and the few small police agencies that still want their officers to carry a revolver, but are uncomfortable with the more powerful .357 Magnum cartridge. The Model 10 is, like the M36, part of the classic series and offered for the same reasons.
So, for the private individual looking for a medium-frame revolver, there really isn't much reason to buy a new one in .38 Special unless it's for the nostalgia of a classic model. If you're looking for a small-frame revolver, however, a .38 can be had substantially lighter and/or cheaper than a comparable .357. If you're looking at used guns, a .38 can often be had for much less than a comparable .357 Magnum and there are certain models and configurations available in .38 that may have never been offered in .357.
223 shooter
New member
Yes , don't know why that is so hard for some to comprehend. Last time I looked the Smith 642 38 Special was not lacking in sales. I appreciate the fact that is a 38 and I don't want it to be anything else.
I had 2 old (60s and 70s) 38 specials that were both large and prior to +P ammo. I sold them and bought a 357 Magnum snubby to replace them. It was not because I wanted to shoot 357 but because I could shoot anything in it without worrying about it being strong enough to handle it. Some gun snobs will look down their nose at my Taurus 605 hammerless polished stainless older model (no longer made polished or without an external hammer) but it shoots well, is tight and less than half as much as a Smith. I decided to sell the old 38 specials after I unintentionally bought +P and caught it before I shot it.
stinkeypete
New member
Reply to the bad science posted in Reply 75:
The experimental bias of the longer barrel for the .357 is simply inexcusable. Shoot .38 out of the 2 1/2 .357 magnum gun? What happened to the 1 7/8" barrel?
Someone did some actual science properly:
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.htmlhttp://
You can see that going from 3" to 2" drops .357 velocity by 200-300 fps depending on the factory ammunition. (Powder speed, I speculate)
Okay.. now I have a bee in my bonnet and am going to do a regression to see what the velocity difference simply due to barrel length would be...
assumption... velocity= 665 + 533 ln(Length) (not a bad fit and I don't care to muck about as we are spitballing)
Simply due to barrel length alone the velocity of Corbon 125 g ammunition would be 1153 fps at 2.5" and 1,000 fps (huh, nice round number) at 1.875"
The .357 magnum loses 153 fps simply due to barrel length.
SO... if we take barrel length in to account, your youtube guy would have gained...
150 FPS for a massive increase in recoil. I buy that. Complete agreement.
When you reduce powder, the velocity lost per barrel-inch is less...
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html#RW
So you kill your zombie deader than mine.. but he was already ...dead.
The experimental bias of the longer barrel for the .357 is simply inexcusable. Shoot .38 out of the 2 1/2 .357 magnum gun? What happened to the 1 7/8" barrel?
Someone did some actual science properly:
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.htmlhttp://
You can see that going from 3" to 2" drops .357 velocity by 200-300 fps depending on the factory ammunition. (Powder speed, I speculate)
Okay.. now I have a bee in my bonnet and am going to do a regression to see what the velocity difference simply due to barrel length would be...
assumption... velocity= 665 + 533 ln(Length) (not a bad fit and I don't care to muck about as we are spitballing)
Simply due to barrel length alone the velocity of Corbon 125 g ammunition would be 1153 fps at 2.5" and 1,000 fps (huh, nice round number) at 1.875"
The .357 magnum loses 153 fps simply due to barrel length.
SO... if we take barrel length in to account, your youtube guy would have gained...
150 FPS for a massive increase in recoil. I buy that. Complete agreement.
When you reduce powder, the velocity lost per barrel-inch is less...
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html#RW
So you kill your zombie deader than mine.. but he was already ...dead.
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HighValleyRanch
New member
Here's my chronograph results of testing the difference of Buffalobore 158 grain .38 +P out of a 1 7/8" LCR and a Ruger 3" LCR with the same ammo. Since it's exactly the same ammo, it sould give a sound example of velocity loss with high grade ammo out of short barrels.
Ruger 1 7/8 LCR yielded 1024, 1027
Ruger 3" LCRX yielded 1076, 1087
We are talking about 50 fps difference here! So not that much loss in 1 inch.
Now in the 4" Ruger secuirty six, we got 1177 fps with the same load, so 100 fps gain over the 3" and 1237, 1218 out of my brother's 6.5" blackhawk. Now that is screaming for some .38 special load! 530 ME ft. pounds for a .38 special.
Ruger 1 7/8 LCR yielded 1024, 1027
Ruger 3" LCRX yielded 1076, 1087
We are talking about 50 fps difference here! So not that much loss in 1 inch.
Now in the 4" Ruger secuirty six, we got 1177 fps with the same load, so 100 fps gain over the 3" and 1237, 1218 out of my brother's 6.5" blackhawk. Now that is screaming for some .38 special load! 530 ME ft. pounds for a .38 special.
you missed my point. The people buying those older Smiths could buy any .38 spl, they're buying those S&Ws because they want those S&Ws
Did you chronograph those numbers, out of your gun(s)?? or just take someone's word for them?
These were chronographed numbers, but it doesn't matter, really. Until you start talking velocity differences of over 100fps, you are within the normal range of different velocities from the same barrel length guns shooting the same ammo.
USUALLY the difference is small 50fps or less, but sometimes its not and I've see 100fps difference between different guns with the same barrel length,
so you cannot absolutely say X difference is due to different barrel length. It could just be due to a different barrel, period.
It's rare, but its not impossible for a 4" barrel to actually shoot a few fps faster with a certain load than an 8" one. You won't ever know, exactly what velocity YOU get with your gun and a given load unless you chronograph it. Other people's data will probably be close. The maker's data will probably be close. If its an exact match, its serendipity. But it could be 100fps different or possibly even more...Don't get hung up over a double handful of fps.